Has Seabourn gone to the dogs?

[twochromic]

My final dubious contrib to this thread: I don't think anyone on the recent TA thought that this was in any way a "service" dog. Rather, a somewhat odd lady fixed in her ways.

[Catlover54]

1 minute ago, twochromic said:

My final dubious contrib to this thread: I don't think anyone on the recent TA thought that this was in any way a "service" dog. Rather, a somewhat odd lady fixed in her ways.

 

By now it's already been flushed out (for anyone paying attention to text and links posted) that SB's *official* policy is that the cruise line (like most other cruise lines) only accepts dogs that qualify as  *service* dogs.  They state they do *not* accept pets or emotional comfort dogs, and do not state that there are exceptions to their rule. So if the dog was on board, he has to have been approved by SB as being a "service" dog, or they are violating their own rules.  Also, some pax were told by staff that the dog is indeed a service dog.  The staff could have made it up, of course, but that is what they reportedly said. 

 

But unfortunately, no one here knows what procedure was required for this particular dog (from Paris) to get approved as a "service" dog prior to his transport on SB across the ocean to U.S. waters, i.e., no one knows exactly what "service" he was supposed to be performing for the lady.  There is quite a bit of wiggle room even under the U.S. ADA (which apparently the line has to comply with if they sail in U.S. waters, even if some SB pax do not want ANY dog on board), but the dog at least officially has to perform some kind of "service" (action other than just being there) for him to qualify.  

 

SB is not required to disclose the information on which it based its decision to curious pax on board.  All they have to do is tell you that it was a service dog.

 

"Service" dogs, however, cannot just do whatever they want, and wherever they want, most people know this.  They cannot poo anywhere at any time, run off leash, ankle bite, bark etc.  One violation is not enough to turn a service dog into just a pet. 

But given  that some of the dog's behavior (specifically, at least one ectopic poo and repeated sitting on public furniture) was not typical of that which a service dog engages in, even though there were no other reported violations,  I understand why people were suspicious (putting aside people who clearly have no clue what a "service" dog is, e.g., those who apparently think it has to be on the level of a big seeing eye dog to qualify,  and it does not).

 

Since people not uncommonly have confused  and inaccurate ideas about what is and is not a service dog, when you couple that with the fact that the "service" dog label  has been abused by too many travelers who just want to bring their pets with them (even by people who own service dogs, such as I described), I can understand the skepticism and the speculation that maybe some strings were pulled, or the definition of "service" was amplified or modified or even ignored, in order to please  a frequent cruiser (the lady has been on before), and an affluent cruiser at that (she is in the owner's suite). But it is just speculation, nothing more. 

 

If true, it would not be the first time that SB has treated some pax less equally than others, and would not surprise me (but I've never been in the camp that believe that SB treats all passengers equally). 

If not true, and there really is some service that the dog performs for the lady, (and he just happened to have one poo accident which even service dogs can occasionally have), AND he had to sit on furniture to perform his service, and there was no "special consideration" given to her financial status to get approval for the dog to board, then it would be appropriate for SB to tell pax who are concerned what was going on. But I doubt they will do more than restate their policy on accepting service dogs and not other dogs, and to state that for privacy reasons (or perhaps legal concerns, since the lady is identifiable), they will not discuss the issue any further.

 

 

 

 

[Cantara24]

20 minutes ago, Catlover54 said:

By now it's already been flushed out (for anyone paying attention to text and links posted) that SB's *official* policy is that the cruise line (like most other cruise lines) only accepts dogs that qualify as  *service* dogs.  They state they do *not* accept pets or emotional comfort dogs, and do not state that there are exceptions to their rule. So if the dog was on board, he has to have been approved by SB as being a "service" dog, or they are violating their own rules.  Also, some pax were told by staff that the dog is indeed a service dog.  The staff could have made it up, of course, but that is what they reportedly said

 

The question I have then, why would not Seabourn as part of their “official” guidelines not require the owner to outfit the animal with an identifying harness or collar.

 

Notwithstanding the fact these can be bought anywhere if Seabourn guidelines state this it would allay any speculation that Seabourn is not following their own guidelines. Perhaps even a Seabourn branded one.

 

They seem to have no issue insisting crew and pax wear masks.

[SLSD]

28 minutes ago, Catlover54 said:

 

 

But unfortunately, no one here knows what procedure was required for this particular dog (from Paris) to get approved as a "service" dog prior to his transport on SB across the ocean to U.S. waters, i.e., no one knows exactly what "service" he was supposed to be performing for the lady.  I understand why people were suspicious (putting aside people who clearly have no clue what a "service" dog is, e.g., those who apparently think it has to be on the level of a big seeing eye dog to qualify,  and it does not).

 

 

Here is where the rub comes in looking at all the posts on this thread.  I am the one who mentioned "seeing eye dogs" as one kind of service dog that we would all accept---BUT in the same sentence I mentioned that there were many other kinds of service dogs.  

 

I object to posters cherry picking words here or there in a post and then attributing bad motives to the writer--not taking into account the entirety of what the poster said.  

 

I don't think we have an issue here other than people doubted the dog was a true service dog (no matter what crew said or SB designated) mostly based on the behavior of the dog.  

 

This forum is beginning to look like a "us again them" forum which I think is a real shame.  Most of us are on the SAME SIDE here--and all devoted to having wonderful experiences with Seabourn.  NO ONE is saying that service dogs cannot come on a ship.  The complaints are about dog behavior which is not common with a true service dog.  Service dogs are very well trained and very expensive.  Most people who own them are well versed in their training and what is expected from them both in terms of service and their behavior.  

 

Maybe what we have here is a somewhat elderly woman (not sure) who was not truly able to travel on her own while taking care of a dog.  Taking care of dogs (as most of us who love dogs know) is a LOT of work (service dog or not).  

 

But, here is what I am asking--please don't take words out of context and accuse posters here of being uncaring, clueless, etc.  It just isn't true.  While we have the occasional outlier here who is beyond the pale, most posters here are good people giving their honest opinions--without malice. 

Edited November 20, 2022 by SLSD

[Catlover54]

11 minutes ago, Cantara24 said:

 

The question I have then, why would not Seabourn as part of their “official” guidelines not require the owner to outfit the animal with an identifying harness or collar.

 

Notwithstanding the fact these can be bought anywhere if Seabourn guidelines state this it would allay any speculation that Seabourn is not following their own guidelines. Perhaps even a Seabourn branded one.

 

They seem to have no issue insisting crew and pax wear masks.

 

I doubt it would "allay any speculation that Seabourn is not following their own guidelines", because people have eyes and noses and experience and will still see the dog sitting on furniture (and the ectopic poo, if more than once), but I agree  it might have helped in some cases, especially with the casual observer who does not care one way or the other (likely most people).

 

 

 

 

[commodoredave]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:08 AM, kjbacon said:

SB has real problems and a quiet, little dog that shows up once in a blue moon isn’t one of them.

The dog is not the problem - it's the owner who allows the dog to behave in an inappropriate manner. If SB had protocols for service dogs and enforced them, I doubt this forum would have gone on this long if at all.

[Techno123]

The issue for me is not whether the dog is a service animal or not, or whether we all should know if that is the case. As a dog owner myself I know that dogs can have worms, fleas and ticks - the dog being allowed on the furniture and defecating on carpets puts other passengers at potential risk from parasites (totally aside from any allergy issues).

[labonnevie]

Just wondering what it would be like to be on a cruise with two service dogs, or three or five or….

Each just sitting on only one chair in Seabourn Square and each just defecating once in a public area…

[sullaRaffaello]

The very first night out of Lisbon, I was seated next to this woman in The Restaurant. I was there for several minutes before I noticed the dog. As she was leaving, I told her that I didn't think dogs could go on Seabourn. She said something to the effect that she had to go through a lot of trouble to get authorization to bring it. She said nothing about it being a service dog. If it was a service dog, wouldn't she have said so? My impression was that she was an elderly woman with some influence who wanted to bring her pet with her and knew what strings to pull to get it accomplished.  

[lincslady]

Nuff said?

[no1talks]

15 minutes ago, lincslady said:

"Nuff said?"

This is the Internet! There is no such thing as, "Nuff said." 😆

[kjbacon]

7 hours ago, sullaRaffaello said:

The very first night out of Lisbon, I was seated next to this woman in The Restaurant. I was there for several minutes before I noticed the dog. As she was leaving, I told her that I didn't think dogs could go on Seabourn. She said something to the effect that she had to go through a lot of trouble to get authorization to bring it. She said nothing about it being a service dog. If it was a service dog, wouldn't she have said so? My impression was that she was an elderly woman with some influence who wanted to bring her pet with her and knew what strings to pull to get it accomplished.  

No, she wouldn’t make mention of the given because SB does not allow pet dogs. SB only allows service dogs so why state the obvious?

 

Someone earlier went off on a rant about hair, parasites and soiled backsides. While that could apply to a dog, that does apply to humans. Don’t forget poison ivy, pink eye, and shingles. Rabies. Herpes. If you want to worry about something, you absolutely should be worried about the many unsanitary practices I observed from the improperly trained kitchen and waitstaff. If you are that unnerved by hair, you best not watch the SB servers or cooks.
 

Or Covid. As in the Covid my husband and I caught from another passenger on SB on our first day because of the completely asinine SB policy. An unmasked, selfish, entitled, snob went on our excursion, sitting next to me on the bus, despite her very active Covid symptoms. Note that her husband who was Covid positive stayed in their cabin that day while she was out and about infecting us. All ok by SB. We missed 10 days of our cruise and a couple ports that we are unlikely to have another opportunity to visit.

 

It should come as no surprise that we rank SB as our least favorite cruise ever and this thread only reinforces some of the reasons for that. The expedition staff, the SB singers, and the guest speaker (Sir Alan) were the only bright spots on this otherwise subpar product. Given our experience with fellow passengers in SB Square, I guess anything different shakes everyone up. If we talked above a library whisper or laughed, the other passengers would set their book down to glare at us.

 

As I said earlier, SB has serious problems and this dog isn’t one of them.

[hoosier74]

I had told myself to ignore this thread but I find I can't help myself!

First, it is my belief that over the past 10 years or so, people, particularly in the US have seen so many abuses of the 'service animal' designation that we are more than skeptical if the person with the animal does not appear to need a service animal and the animal does not act like a service animal.   Service animals are wonderful and provide much needed assistance to their owners.  Our church congregation has a woman with a service dog for her panic attacks and he is so inconspicuous that I have never actually seen him.  

However, I have also experienced very small (as in a toy Yorkie) dogs in service vests on National Park  trails quite a distance from the trail head which present a danger to the owner, other hikers and park animals.  In spite of numerous warnings, people don't understand that dog urine smells just like wolf urine to other animals.  And of course, we have all seen the story of the support  peacock.  

 

Secondly, I have cruised on several lines other than Seabourn.  Each of those cruises had things that I enjoyed, but also things I didn't like and I chose not to return to those lines.   However, I do not haunt the boards for those cruise lines sharing all my dislikes, and trying, probably with the best intentions, to warn others off with my stories of what I didn't like.  Those cruises were my personal experience and probably others with different tastes, expectations, and experiences would not feel the same.  

[Cantara24]

32 minutes ago, hoosier74 said:

I had told myself to ignore this thread but I find I can't help myself!

First, it is my belief that over the past 10 years or so, people, particularly in the US have seen so many abuses of the 'service animal' designation that we are more than skeptical if the person with the animal does not appear to need a service animal and the animal does not act like a service animal.   Service animals are wonderful and provide much needed assistance to their owners.  Our church congregation has a woman with a service dog for her panic attacks and he is so inconspicuous that I have never actually seen him.  

However, I have also experienced very small (as in a toy Yorkie) dogs in service vests on National Park  trails quite a distance from the trail head which present a danger to the owner, other hikers and park animals.  In spite of numerous warnings, people don't understand that dog urine smells just like wolf urine to other animals.  And of course, we have all seen the story of the support  peacock.  

 

Secondly, I have cruised on several lines other than Seabourn.  Each of those cruises had things that I enjoyed, but also things I didn't like and I chose not to return to those lines.   However, I do not haunt the boards for those cruise lines sharing all my dislikes, and trying, probably with the best intentions, to warn others off with my stories of what I didn't like.  Those cruises were my personal experience and probably others with different tastes, expectations, and experiences would not feel the same.  

 

Thanks for the reasoned comments. I agree with what you say regarding posting individual experiences which are largely subjective but, when something flies in the face of communicated “official policies” then I think it is entirely appropriate to inform others.

 

Seabourn clearly state “We do not permit our guests to bring pets, therapy/companion animals, and other animals that do not meet the definition of service animals.”

 

Now I would agree as worded you could drive a truck through their goal posts, which to me makes it more important that Seabourn Management enforce whatever guidelines they communicated when approving this animal. This to me is where Seabourn failed miserably as they either did not give appropriate guidelines or did not enforce. It also gives us pause when considering booking a cruise.

 

Sorry about hitting the dead horse again! 😊

[kjbacon]

I’m not angry.

 

I’m appalled by the mob mentality on here to all but lynch a disabled little old lady because she and her dog don’t fit their cookie cutter definition of what they will tolerate from the handicapped. Ok, so the dog had an accident and no one wants that but that does not “prove” the prejudiced point so prevalent here. And I’d bet an easy $100 that most every accuser on this board has had an accident along the way.

 

It’s hard to believe that there is serious discussion on here about confronting a disabled old lady to demand her health report or even better, to expect SB to violate her rights as a human being to disclose her personal information to you all.

My 38 night experience with SB suggests that her cabin status didn’t buy her an exception to their service animal policy. We were in the winter garden suite and couldn’t so much as make a 15 minute adjustment to a Collonade reservation on fried chicken night. 
 

To the other point … no, we did not like SB. Maybe you guys shouldn’t take that so personally! There’s a couple other lines that we strongly prefer for several reasons but so what? Additionally, our particular sailing had pronounced problems that basically no one is denying. We have 10 days of fcc that we will be using next year so I will continue to monitor these boards .

[commodoredave]

39 minutes ago, kjbacon said:

I’m not angry.

 

I’m appalled by the mob mentality on here to all but lynch a disabled little old lady because she and her dog don’t fit their cookie cutter definition of what they will tolerate from the handicapped. Ok, so the dog had an accident and no one wants that but that does not “prove” the prejudiced point so prevalent here. And I’d bet an easy $100 that most every accuser on this board has had an accident along the way.

 

It’s hard to believe that there is serious discussion on here about confronting a disabled old lady to demand her health report or even better, to expect SB to violate her rights as a human being to disclose her personal information to you all.

My 38 night experience with SB suggests that her cabin status didn’t buy her an exception to their service animal policy. We were in the winter garden suite and couldn’t so much as make a 15 minute adjustment to a Collonade reservation on fried chicken night. 
 

To the other point … no, we did not like SB. Maybe you guys shouldn’t take that so personally! There’s a couple other lines that we strongly prefer for several reasons but so what? Additionally, our particular sailing had pronounced problems that basically no one is denying. We have 10 days of fcc that we will be using next year so I will continue to monitor these boards .

You can continue to make excuses for the dog, but there is no excuse for the selfish dog owner who appears to have no consideration for anyone else on the cruise except herself. As any dog owner knows, their animal can be trained to behave properly in public, including staying on leash, not sitting on furniture, etc. And the issue with the dog having an accident is not that it happened, it's how the dog owner responded to it.  

[commodoredave]

1 hour ago, kjbacon said:

And I’d bet an easy $100 that most every accuser on this board has had an accident along the way.

Well, I haven't had an accident on a ship yet, but if I do have one you can bet I will make sure it is properly cleaned up, and I won't go into Seabourn Square after and plant my bare bottom (as lovely as it is) on a chair! 😀😁

[AtA]

On 11/17/2022 at 6:18 PM, Isklaar said:

 

I am a dog person who made the mistake of marrying someone who is hideously allergic to dogs (cats and horses too!). Apparently poodles are not allergenic (wrong word?) so I assume they do not shed much. 

You should look into an American Hairless Terrier. Lowest dander breed of any dog. I am highly allergic and have had no issues with our two. BTW, this is our house so yes they're allowed on OUR couches. Top pic is Wondyr age 2 and bottom pic is Cocoa age 12. OK back to our regularly scheduled topic. 🙂  

Edited November 23, 2022 by AtA

[commodoredave]

10 hours ago, AtA said:

You should look into an American Hairless Terrier. Lowest dander breed of any dog. I am highly allergic and have had no issues with our two. BTW, this is our house so yes they're allowed on OUR couches. Top pic is Wondyr age 2 and bottom pic is Cocoa age 12. OK back to our regularly scheduled topic. 🙂  

Cocoa has good taste in clothes. I see a cruise in her future!

[highplanesdrifters]

1 hour ago, commodoredave said:

Cocoa has good taste in clothes. I see a cruise in her future!

Does she have the heels and bag to match?  A diamond choker would really bring it all together especially with the dark fur.

Edited November 23, 2022 by highplanesdrifters

[Mr Luxury]

2 hours ago, commodoredave said:

Cocoa has good taste in clothes. I see a cruise in her future!

Better dressed than some guests that rock up on Formal evening.

[AtA]

3 hours ago, highplanesdrifters said:

Does she have the heels and bag to match?  A diamond choker would really bring it all together especially with the dark fur.

No she prefers to go barefoot. There is absolutely NO fur. That's bare skin which is why they are Hairless Terriers. 🙂

[AtA]

2 hours ago, Mr Luxury said:

Better dressed than some guests that rock up on Formal evening.

Both girls are better dressed. Heck I think they have more clothes than me although Wondyr tends to be a nudist.

[Cantara24]

25 minutes ago, AtA said:

Both girls are better dressed. Heck I think they have more clothes than me although Wondyr tends to be a nudist.

I surmise they would not do well in the winter climate we have, minus 10 Celsius to minus 20 C, I'd have to have pee pads in our basement!! Are they susceptible to summer sun?

[GUT2407]

18 hours ago, AtA said:

You should look into an American Hairless Terrier. Lowest dander breed of any dog. I am highly allergic and have had no issues with our two. BTW, this is our house so yes they're allowed on OUR couches. Top pic is Wondyr age 2 and bottom pic is Cocoa age 12. OK back to our regularly scheduled topic. 🙂  

I had a Chinese crested for many years, similar look8ng dog in many ways.