New houskeeping and tipping

[Buckeyefrank100]

12 hours ago, mz-s said:

well that’s obviously true, but not in the form of gratuities.

 

I was all for gratuities believing they helped ensure good service. But in the past few years the service on Carnival has declined yet the gratuities have increased. So I am no longer in favor of them. It’s essentially corporate welfare for Carnival. I don’t support it. 

That is Carnival's business model... oh as well as all of the other high profile cruise lines.  You have the choice to take your money elsewhere if you don't like it.

[resetjet]

10 hours ago, Elaine5715 said:

So you would rather pay $1000 all in for a cruise instead of $900 plus $100 gratuities?  When some four star restaurants announced they were going tipless but raised menu prices and put in a 20% service charge, the tipping is bad crowd cheered (servers quit).  The meal was now more expensive. How does that make sense?  Why is a "service charge" good but gratuities bad? 

Well i would rather pay $1000 and then tip as i see fit knowing it stays with who i give it to.  I dont care if it costs me more. These workers are great and i want to reward them.  Not help a cruise ships bottom line.  I may have to give msc a try.  Apparently thats how they do it.

Edited February 17, 2023 by resetjet

[sparks1093]

20 minutes ago, resetjet said:

Well i would rather pay $1000 and then tip as i see fit knowing it stays with who i give it to.  I dont care if it costs me more. These workers are great and i want to reward them.  Not help a cruise ships bottom line.  I may have to give msc a try.  Apparently thats how they do it.

You might not mind if it costs you more but there are plenty of folks who would and they wouldn't leave a tip, either. In any establishment that pools tips, and that is quite a good number of places, any tip you leave is split among the employees and yes, that does help the establishment's bottom line. 

[Elaine5715]

37 minutes ago, resetjet said:

Well i would rather pay $1000 and then tip as i see fit knowing it stays with who i give it to.  I dont care if it costs me more. These workers are great and i want to reward them.  Not help a cruise ships bottom line.  I may have to give msc a try.  Apparently thats how they do it.

You realize like auto tips, you neither get to control or see where/how service fees are distributed? When cruise fares include all, you are compensating crew in the manner the cruise corporation has determined?  Should the ship culture still require tips given on a "no tip" ship be turned in or pooled, the crew does that since they have morals? Their loyalty is never to the guest.   

[resetjet]

1 hour ago, Elaine5715 said:

You realize like auto tips, you neither get to control or see where/how service fees are distributed? When cruise fares include all, you are compensating crew in the manner the cruise corporation has determined?  Should the ship culture still require tips given on a "no tip" ship be turned in or pooled, the crew does that since they have morals? Their loyalty is never to the guest.   

Thats why i have said it needs more transparency in order to work.  I just mainly want to know where my additional tips are going.  If its to make the cruise line have to contribute less as indicated on some online posts and videos,  i am not interested.

[hapytobehr]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:20 PM, john91498 said:

Man, the whole tipping thing is always a hot topic.

 

I leave the auto tips alone and add extra tips to those who made my trip a more pleasant experience. Usually, wait staff, bar tenders and room attendants.

This!!

[Elaine5715]

1 hour ago, resetjet said:

Thats why i have said it needs more transparency in order to work.  I just mainly want to know where my additional tips are going.  If its to make the cruise line have to contribute less as indicated on some online posts and videos,  i am not interested.

I don't think you understand how this works.  The "cruiseline" contributes nothing.   

[Pika8347]

14 hours ago, Pellaz said:

 

Hmm, you've made that abundantly clear.  Have you cancelled all your upcoming Carnival cruises (if any) and rescheduled for a different line?   Or a few good nights out at Chili's?  

 

Oh?    You have proof of this?

 

By definition it's not "slave labor" since the employees voluntarily enter into their contracts.  Moreover, although they work hard and for long hours, they are paid quite well by the standards of their home countries.    AND of course, they receive free room and board, and free medical.   

Yes sir! Here's your proof. (p. 36, Jan. 27, 2023, 10-K report). 

 

a. U.S. Income Tax

We are primarily foreign corporations engaged in the business of operating cruise ships in international transportation. We also own and operate, among other businesses, the U.S. hotel and transportation business of Holland America Princess Alaska Tours through U.S. corporations.

Our North American cruise ship businesses and certain ship-owning subsidiaries are engaged in a trade or business within the U.S. Depending on its itinerary, any particular ship may generate income from sources within the U.S. We believe that our U.S. source income and the income of our ship-owning subsidiaries, to the extent derived from, or incidental to, the international operation of a ship or ships, is currently exempt from U.S. federal income and branch profit taxes.

Our domestic U.S. operations, principally the hotel and transportation business of Holland America Princess Alaska Tours, are subject to federal and state income taxation in the U.S.

We do not believe we were a passive foreign investment company (“PFIC”), within the meaning of Section 1297 of the Internal Revenue Code, for the 2022 taxable year and do not currently expect to be a PFIC in the 2023 taxable year.

 

 

1. Application of Section 883 of the Internal Revenue Code

In general, under Section 883 of the Internal Revenue Code, certain non-U.S. corporations (such as our North American cruise ship businesses) are not subject to U.S. federal income tax or branch profits tax on U.S. source income derived from, or incidental to, the international operation of a ship or ships. Applicable U.S. Treasury regulations provide in general that a foreign corporation will qualify for the benefits of Section 883 if, in relevant part, (i) the foreign country in which the foreign corporation is organized grants an equivalent exemption to corporations organized in the U.S. in respect of each category of shipping income for which an exemption is being claimed under Section 883 (an “equivalent exemption jurisdiction”) and (ii) the foreign corporation meets a defined publicly-traded corporation stock ownership test (the “publicly-traded test”). Subsidiaries of foreign corporations that are organized in an equivalent exemption jurisdiction and meet the publicly-traded test also benefit from Section 883. We believe that Panama is an equivalent exemption jurisdiction and that Carnival Corporation currently satisfies the publicly-traded test under the regulations. Accordingly, substantially all of Carnival Corporation’s income is exempt from U.S. federal income and branch profit taxes.

[Guest BasicSailor]

10 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Read through the thread, you'll get an idea. 🙂 

Gonna pass on that. I've read too many Tipping threads over the years, and they usually wind up getting shut down 😎. Maybe someone will jot all the information down to a paragraph in the end😉

[bettysuetraveler]

18 hours ago, sparks1093 said:

Gratuities aren't subject to sales tax in any event but I've never been charged tax.

thanks. would not be fair to tax gratuities but these days i dont put anything past corporations of any kind. 

[Incognito1]

On 2/12/2023 at 9:58 AM, starstruck05 said:

How much do you tip your Housekeeper at a hotel?

$2 per night is the standard.

 

Gratuities are distributed FLEET-WIDE, not just on the cruise you're on.  Those people working behind the scenes are getting paid, and paid more than they'd make in their home countries.  We prefer to tip directly those who provide service.  You do what you want.  But everyone getting a share regardless of their level of service seems wrong to me.

[sparks1093]

2 hours ago, Incognito1 said:

But everyone getting a share regardless of their level of service seems wrong to me.

I don't know why people think this is wrong. The crew work as a team and when one member of the team excels, the entire team excels. It may not be the team member who is providing you the service directly that is excellng. As has been pointed out multiple times this is no different from a land-based restaurant or resort pooling tips for the staff, a practice that most people are probably ignorant of to begin with. 

 

In those establishments the tips are pooled and then divided in accordance with the agreement made between the establishment and the employees. And note- management and the establishment are forbidden in most states from sharing in tip pools, it all has to go to the employees. When tips are pooled the customer cannot give a server a tricky wink with the gratuity and say "this is only for you, don't share it with anyone else" because they can't do that without potentially losing their job. For those who say you want them to know how grateful you are they know that by the size of your tip and by your words, especially if you share your words with their bosses.

[Pellaz]

10 hours ago, Pika8347 said:

Yes sir! Here's your proof. (p. 36, Jan. 27, 2023, 10-K report). 

 

[....] 

Our domestic U.S. operations, principally the hotel and transportation business of Holland America Princess Alaska Tours, are subject to federal and state income taxation in the U.S.

[...]

 

Interesting that some operations, notably hotel and transport, ARE subject to U.S. income tax.  

 

BTW, that sounded like a legal pleading or Tax Court argument FROM Carnival, not a ruling by IRS, Chief Counsel or the Tax Court as to Carnival's corporate income taxability.   

 

Blech.  Enough work-stuff.  I come to CruiseCritic to escape that, and think about warm climates and fun cruises.  🙂  

 

 

 

 

[resetjet]

On 2/13/2023 at 5:59 AM, sparks1093 said:

This is one of the benefits of using a tip pool for the employees, it minimizes the effect of people that leave no tip or under tip (and it also evens out the effect of empty cabins). I believe that Carnival uses a tip pool, based on a lot of reading and my own knowledge of how things work, so doing simple math to determine how much your steward is making doesn't work. At least Carnival allows staff to keep any tips given over and above the auto gratuity amount, in some establishments all tips go into the pool. While I understand why some folks like to remove the tips and leave the same amount in cash they are just making more work for themselves and for the staff. Since I think the staff works hard enough I don't want to add to their work load.

Can you prove any of this?  Thats the problem,  there are so many contradicting theories.  

[mz-s]

12 minutes ago, resetjet said:

Can you prove any of this?  Thats the problem,  there are so many contradicting theories.  

 

The last time I asked for proof in a different thread (that I think has since been deleted), I was provided screenshots from speculation threads here on Cruise Critic of other cruise line's policies - absolutely nothing from Carnival Cruise Lines.

 

I think people don't understand (or choose to ignore) that a big problem many of us have with the current gratuity arrangement is the lack of transparency. Where is our money going? How much is my personal cabin steward receiving of my $16/day? etc. We deserve to know. I don't care how much my steward makes total - none of my business. But how much of my $16/day is he directly receiving?

Edited February 18, 2023 by mz-s

[resetjet]

1 minute ago, mz-s said:

 

The last time I asked for proof in a different thread (that I think has since been deleted), I was provided screenshots from speculation threads here on Cruise Critic of other cruise line's policies - absolutely nothing from Carnival Cruise Lines.

I have found 2 videos to the contarary and lots of crew member posts.  But none specifically indicating carnival.  However i can say with 100% certainty they prefer their tips given in cash.  

[staceyglow]

10 hours ago, bettysuetraveler said:

thanks. would not be fair to tax gratuities but these days i dont put anything past corporations of any kind. 

As a retired CFO, I can assure you that no corporation charges tax on anything it doesn't have to. It increases the cost to the customer and the company does not get any of that money. In fact it actually costs the company money  because they have to pay people to calculate it, track it, collect it, and send it to the government. 

Edited February 18, 2023 by staceyglow

[sparks1093]

4 hours ago, resetjet said:

Can you prove any of this?  Thats the problem,  there are so many contradicting theories.  

Proof that you would accept? Doubtful, but I do know how tipping pools work and it's much easier for me to believe that a tipping pool is being used then it is to believe that a single steward is making $2450 per week as you calculate. Seems to me you might be upset that a lowly employee is making so much money, even though you acknowledge how hard they work. You don't think about it at all when you eat out at a restaurant and probably assume that your server is getting 100% of what you leave, when that is very probably not the case. 

[resetjet]

1 hour ago, sparks1093 said:

Proof that you would accept? Doubtful, but I do know how tipping pools work and it's much easier for me to believe that a tipping pool is being used then it is to believe that a single steward is making $2450 per week as you calculate. Seems to me you might be upset that a lowly employee is making so much money, even though you acknowledge how hard they work. You don't think about it at all when you eat out at a restaurant and probably assume that your server is getting 100% of what you leave, when that is very probably not the case. 

Please reread my post.  It says $3500 a month for the steward. The tips come to $2400 a week that are then pooled.  I said the tips are divided to about 6 or 8 more people.  The whole point of this thread was how the steward is getting ripped off cleaning 35 rooms that are dirty as hell.  More then Twice the work.

 

I was a waiter for years.  I know how the process works.  Only the waiter,  busboy and bartender get tips and zero of that goes to pay thier salary.  The dishwasher,  cooks,  managers,  hostess get zero tips.  

 

 

[Elaine5715]

2 hours ago, resetjet said:

Please reread my post.  It says $3500 a month for the steward. The tips come to $2400 a week that are then pooled.  I said the tips are divided to about 6 or 8 more people.  The whole point of this thread was how the steward is getting ripped off cleaning 35 rooms that are dirty as hell.  More then Twice the work.

 

I was a waiter for years.  I know how the process works.  Only the waiter,  busboy and bartender get tips and zero of that goes to pay thier salary.  The dishwasher,  cooks,  managers,  hostess get zero tips.  

 

 

Not always...in some places back of the house is tipped out and where service charges are imposed, they are included.  Hosts and Maîtres are frequently tipped out.  Last century when it wasn't a matter of using Open Table to score a reservation at fine dining, Maîtres made bank from guests wanting to get a table. 

[sparks1093]

Ok I have a clearer picture now. I don't know why you think they're getting screwed, they're working on a contact that clearly delineates what is expected of them and what they will make, broken down by what the company contributes (little), what their minimum tips will be (in the event too many people remove tips) and what they'll make at full tips. In short they know full well goingbin what they'll be doing and for how much. We don't know who the folks are who get a share but I doubt that it extends to the back of the house. My guess is it covers traditionally tipped out staff (bussers) but also some folks who do a job onboard that would be regular hourly wage ashore. I've mentioned the folks moving luggage on embark and debark. I would also guess that the folks busy cleaning the public places while you sleep are also part of the pool. In any event if they are part of the pool they are earning what they make. These folks get most of their income from our auto grants.

 

 

 

Finally, since you mention your work history what would your reaction have been if a customer asked you anything about the tips you earned? I know that would have found a polite way to tell it's none of their business. You didn't earn a salary but you probably earned an hourly wage less than what the hourly wage was and the law required your employer to make up the difference if your tips didn't bring you to full minimum wage. Those two amounts are represent the first two amounts that I mentioned above, the little bit they get from the company and the minimum they are guaranteed under the agreement the cruise line and the association that represents the workers *which isn't an employee union as we understand it). So, you certainly have the right to do as you wish with the auto grants but that doesn't mean it's the right thing to do. I do know this- when I leave the auto tips in place I know that every employee that is supposed to get a share does. That's good enough for me, I don't need to know exactly where it's going.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[resetjet]

Did you seriously hit return 100 times?

 

I have been asked and i dont care.  I also ask like on the last cruise,  had two tour guides and a driver outside the bus.  I asked them if they pool and who should i give tip to.  They were very happy to tell me.

 

to each their own.  I was just trying to figure out the carnival system so i can act how i see fit.  There are two ways stewards are paid.  Guaranteed salary.  Ship keeps tips or a salary + tips with no guarantee.  I believe carnival to be the latter.  I also found proof that stewards do in fact get 25% on average of the tips designated for stewards.  So my math above should be close.  

[bettysuetraveler]

15 hours ago, staceyglow said:

As a retired CFO, I can assure you that no corporation charges tax on anything it doesn't have to. It increases the cost to the customer and the company does not get any of that money. In fact it actually costs the company money  because they have to pay people to calculate it, track it, collect it, and send it to the government. 

i can see that. thanks

[sparks1093]

10 hours ago, resetjet said:

Did you seriously hit return 100 times?

 

I have been asked and i dont care.  I also ask like on the last cruise,  had two tour guides and a driver outside the bus.  I asked them if they pool and who should i give tip to.  They were very happy to tell me.

 

to each their own.  I was just trying to figure out the carnival system so i can act how i see fit.  There are two ways stewards are paid.  Guaranteed salary.  Ship keeps tips or a salary + tips with no guarantee.  I believe carnival to be the latter.  I also found proof that stewards do in fact get 25% on average of the tips designated for stewards.  So my math above should be close.  

No, I replied from my phone and it would let me quote you and for some reason inserted all of those returns. I personally don't care what someone makes, so I would never think to ask. The tips belong to the pool 100%, John Heald has stated as much over the years. Carnival may not be transparent in this, but then neither is any other cruise line. How their compensation is done is proprietary in nature and they will not discuss it. Another thing John Heald confirmed is that if the auto gratuities remain in place then the employees keep any additional tips. I have no reason to doubt him. I think until you figure out exactly how things work, conclusively and not by guessing, that you should leave well enough alone and leave the auto gratuities in place since you have no idea what the ramifications are to the employees, but that's just me. I am pretty confident that removing them doesn't hurt the company one little bit. 

[audcc77]

On 2/17/2023 at 2:21 PM, Elaine5715 said:

I don't think you understand how this works.  The "cruiseline" contributes nothing.   

Source?

 

When our son bused tables at an upscale restaurant, he was paid about the same each week because the employer would adjust the pay based on tips, actually making up the difference or spreading around the overage.  
 

So basically it didn’t matter how well or fast he did the job, he got paid the same.  
 

I am interested where your information comes from which states that the cruise line doesn’t make up for shortfalls.