Dogs on the ship

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

" The dog was trained to be up on the bed while he slept.  He was trained to sit on the coach, (thinking they meant couch) " DD57 stated. 

 

I haven't mentioned that in my post because I didn't want to add more issues to this already complex subject, but I will make a clarification on this issue. Our service dog as part of her task was to sleep at the foot of my bed to waken me if my daughters ventilator alarm went off. (My daughter depended on a ventilator to breath and our service dog was trained to distinguish alarm sounds and alert me. Yes....it was amazing!)  When a 60 pound lab jumps on you, it is effective.  BUT....as I have said before, part of owning a service dog is the training the handler receives. We carried a thick blanket with us when we stayed in hotels. The blanket was spread over the bed so our service dog did not have direct contact with bedding. We were instructed in our training that it was our responsibility as handlers to insure we held to the highest standards of cleanliness and and consideration for others. My hope would be that individuals using service dogs that were trained to alert and needed to be in direct physical contact, would be trained in the proper way of doing that, whether it be a bed, chair or couch. That would include the responsibility of providing a proper barrier between the service dog and furniture or bedding. 

 

I believe if people were seeing a high standard of cleanliness and consideration of others, they would not be questioning whether these dogs were legitimate service dogs.  

 

 

 

 

 

[Vineyard View]

I appreciate that Viking posted a response to everyone on this thread. It means that they pay attention to CC members. I do not believe that is consistently common with cruise lines.  So thank you. 
 

I also appreciate that rules are being clarified. Again, thank you. 
 

The portion in your posted letter that did not ring true was ‘isolated instances of improper behavior of service animals on board’. I just do not buy that these are ‘service animals’. The behavior shown in pictures are not that of trained ‘service animals’.  Being fed from the tables in restaurants, barking, sitting on furniture - nope. Not buying it. If the argument is made that they need to be close to their owners, then the floor at their feet is close. If in fact they need to be close via furniture, then a well trained  ‘service animal’ owner would know that they should at least put a towel or sheet underneath the dog out of respect to the cruise ship and fellow passengers. So no - this just does not ring true. Something broke down in the vetting process. 

[chengkp75]

Sorry, Jim, going to disagree with you;

 

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

Sadly, following how most things go in the New World Order, this thread, in a matter of days, has gone from full blown outrage to well I guess there's nothing we can do.

No, as I've said, if you see an animal that is misbehaving as per Viking's policies, then a complaint can be made about that specific behavior.  One thing that you "can do" is to ask Congress to amend the ADA regarding documentation, certification, and identification.

 

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

 Those people have "rights" and we should feel sorry for them.  They are victims of their disability.

Never said we should feel sorry for them, or that they are victims, but whether you or I like it, they do have rights, just like you have rights, but topping that, those "rights" you feel you have do not necessarily follow you up the gangway of a foreign flag ship.

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

5 hours ago, KBs mum said:

Allthough there is no requirement for a service animal to have a vest under ADA, it seems sensible that the dog have a sleeve on the leash, collar or a vest to indicate that it is working and shouldn't be petted and so that staff in the premises don't have to ask before allowing admittance. Staff can also discreetly keep an eye out in case the person needs any extra accommodations. 

Other customers then know not to try and pet the dog or distract it. There doesn't need to be an indication of what the medical condition is, unless the person wants there to be. 

 

 

Yes....the purpose for a vest is to alert others to the fact that this is a working dog. I understand that some people want privacy, not wanting to disclose that they have a medical issue or a disability, but I lean towards wishing that they would require service dogs to have some sort of visual identification as it alerts people that it is a working animal and not a pet. Also....many or most service dogs are trained with the vest. If the vest is on, they are working. If the vest is off, they are off duty. You remove the vest when they need to "break", eat, or have a fun play time. 

I am assuming dogs trained for diabetes are not trained this way...I do not have any experience with that. 

 

 

 

 

[LHT28]

35 minutes ago, KBs mum said:

If flag state matters then anybody know what Norwegian law is? Viking would be applying ADA voluntarily. 

 

I do not think the Flag of Convenience matters in the ADA  rule

The clue is in the title

 AMERICAN DISABILITIES ACT  

Different Countries will have different rules on pets/service animals

[Sunflower & The Scientist]

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

Sadly, following how most things go in the New World Order, this thread, in a matter of days, has gone from full blown outrage to well I guess there's nothing we can do.  Those people have "rights" and we should feel sorry for them.  They are victims of their disability.  

No they are not.  The ones in this discussion, and the ones likely to come later are idiots bringing their pets along for the ride and you and me better get over it.

 

Jim, I wish you'd be more direct and say what you mean🤣🤣🤣!  I have to say I agree with you. To be honest, there is no way I would have considered taking our service dog on a cruise. There are too many risk involved. If someone makes themselves a victim of their disability, it's a sad existence. There are things we all can and can't do. 

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

The dog was trained to be up on the bed while he slept.  He was trained to sit on the coach, (thinking they meant couch) " DD57 stated. 

 

9 minutes ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

I believe if people were seeing a high standard of cleanliness and consideration of others, they would not be questioning whether these dogs were legitimate service dogs.

Whether or not a dog was trained to sit on the couch or sleep on a bed, these acts are technically in contravention of the ADA code of conduct, and while completely acceptable in private, it could be challenged while in public.  But, yes, whether the dog is a true service dog, or a fake, it has to meet the code of conduct.

[KBs mum]

22 minutes ago, LHT28 said:

I do not think the Flag of Convenience matters in the ADA  rule

The clue is in the title

 AMERICAN DISABILITIES ACT  

Different Countries will have different rules on pets/service animals

I was replying to a post about Silversea, which also sails out of US ports, one of the original posters on this thread is from the UK. Viking is Norwegian owned and flagged. 

The info about Silversea seems contradictory to the (no doubt accurate) info from Chengkp. 

The question being if the ADA is not applicable, for whatever reason, such as if a cruise does not begin or end in the US, what are Norwegian regulations on the subject. Viking may be folliwing ADA guidelines but may not legally have to

Edited April 1, 2023 by KBs mum

[Jim Avery]

1 hour ago, chengkp75 said:

 

Whether or not a dog was trained to sit on the couch or sleep on a bed, these acts are technically in contravention of the ADA code of conduct, and while completely acceptable in private, it could be challenged while in public.  But, yes, whether the dog is a true service dog, or a fake, it has to meet the code of conduct.

And there seems to be the problem.  Viking staff appear to not go by the rules at boarding nor take any action on board.  Unless those pictures are fake...

[biggerbearmom]

1 hour ago, Vineyard View said:

The portion in your posted letter that did not ring true was ‘isolated instances of improper behavior of service animals on board’. I just do not buy that these are ‘service animals’. The behavior shown in pictures are not that of trained ‘service animals’.  Being fed from the tables in restaurants, barking, sitting on furniture - nope. Not buying it. If the argument is made that they need to be close to their owners, then the floor at their feet is close. If in fact they need to be close via furniture, then a well trained  ‘service animal’ owner would know that they should at least put a towel or sheet underneath the dog out of respect to the cruise ship and fellow passengers. So no - this just does not ring true. Something broke down in the vetting process. 

Exactly! 

[KBs mum]

1 hour ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

 

Jim, I wish you'd be more direct and say what you mean🤣🤣🤣!  I have to say I agree with you. To be honest, there is no way I would have considered taking our service dog on a cruise. There are too many risk involved. If someone makes themselves a victim of their disability, it's a sad existence. There are things we all can and can't do. 

I have noticed that some people have a disability (thing that makes everyday tasks difficult or impossible without help) and others are Disabled (being something that their identity is based around) 

The former can generally get on with it without major drama, the latter seem to thrive on perceived discrimination drama. 

 

 

[Heidi13]

2 hours ago, tobique33040 said:

I’ve done a bit of quick research. Appears that Silversea does not allow animals, service or otherwise. And many of the requirements by other lines go against what one poster said were illegal. Perhaps because they are vessels registered under a foreign flag, they are not required under our laws to allow animals. So cruising is a choice, while flying somewhere may be a necessity. It seems rational that some things would not be subject to the laws, otherwise how can Silversea discriminate against people wanting to bring their animals. Maybe Heidi 13, who always has excellent information, can assist on this question. 

 

The Chief is a better resource than me when it comes to US Regulations. When in port, in addition to compliance with Flag State requirements, a number of local regulations are applicable.

 

As the Chief noted previously, the US  ADA applies to foreign flag cruise ships operating in US waters.

 

If Silversea are operating in US waters and not following the ADA, they may be challenged.

[tobique33040]

16 minutes ago, Heidi13 said:

 

The Chief is a better resource than me when it comes to US Regulations. When in port, in addition to compliance with Flag State requirements, a number of local regulations are applicable.

 

As the Chief noted previously, the US  ADA applies to foreign flag cruise ships operating in US waters.

 

If Silversea are operating in US waters and not following the ADA, they may be challenged.

That answers my question perfectly. Hmmm, so when Silversea say no pets, maybe if you ask about service animals they allow them. If the law requires ships to take service animals with little documentation, according to Chief who I believe said you can’t ask people about their disability, then the ship probably can’t restrict animals on board to a specific number? 

[Travelingwithstyle]

Just now, Jim Avery said:

And there seems to be the problem.  Viking staff appear to not go by the rules at boarding nor take any action on board.  Unless those pictures are fake...

Im on board and agree with you Jim.  These 4 dogs are not service dogs.  We got the B answer from Viking on this post and from Chris Wragg General Manager.  When my husband talked to him Mr Wragg defended Viking and told him about all the paperwork these dog owners had to fill out before coming pn board.  He also said blogging "the internet" wasnt the right platform.  I thought...well I tried complaing to the desk manager on day 2 but nothing changed so Ill see if this is acceptable and the new norm on CC.  Im glad I posted.   I truly had learned alot.

 

Yestersday the gentlemen in most of the photos on this post (current Viking Star cruise) was in the outdoor middle pool while the band was playing for a festive sail away.  He was in the pool by himself for about an hour.  His dog was near the pool.  The dog started out on the ground by the lounge chair and then was smart went and moved under the lounge chair to be in the shade.  The owner, who was wearing feet flippers and hand finns did his pool calisthenics including barbell dip type of exercises.

One of the passengers felt sorry for the dog and (wait for it) brought the dog water in one of the human blue plastic drinking glasses.

Viking was dooped or chose to look the other way with these 4 dogs currently on the Star.  Hopefully they learned we passengers will not put up with this and Im very grateful for the CC platform where we can have conversations and alert others.

[Twitchly]

2 hours ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

Yes....the purpose for a vest is to alert others to the fact that this is a working dog. I understand that some people want privacy, not wanting to disclose that they have a medical issue or a disability, but I lean towards wishing that they would require service dogs to have some sort of visual identification as it alerts people that it is a working animal and not a pet.

Having a dog on a Viking cruise ship automatically discloses that its owner has a medical issue or disability. Otherwise it wouldn’t be there. Or that’s the theory, anyway. 

[photopro2]

3 hours ago, CurlerRob said:

What Viking published on this thread was essentially their new FAQ description of the policy.

Understood.

 

My question to Viking was in relation to the last two sentences on the FAQ. These infer that Viking already had policies relating to the "improper behaviour" of animals on their ships and that these have now been updated in the light of recent reports.

 

I believe it is important that Viking should make their policies in this area public for two reasons:

 

1/ The information that there are specific behavioural guidelines for animals on board, which owners will have to ensure are followed (ideally with the potential penalty of removal from the ship) may well act as a deterrent to those considering making a bogus claim about the status of their pet. This would not impact on genuine service animal users, who already take the necessary steps to make sure their animals behave appropriately.

 

2/ The publication of the policies would inform all customers of the required behaviour of animals on board, both genuine and bogus. This would provide reassurance in advance of booking cruises that the experience is unlikely to be spoilt by the owners of badly behaved pets. It would also give guidance, once on the ship, regarding what "improper behaviours" could reasonably be brought to the attention of the staff. 

Edited April 1, 2023 by photopro2
omitted word

[KBs mum]

6 minutes ago, Travelingwithstyle said:

Im on board and agree with you Jim.  These 4 dogs are not service dogs.  We got the B answer from Viking on this post and from Chris Wragg General Manager.  When my husband talked to him Mr Wragg defended Viking and told him about all the paperwork these dog owners had to fill out before coming pn board.  He also said blogging "the internet" wasnt the right platform.  I thought...well I tried complaing to the desk manager on day 2 but nothing changed so Ill see if this is acceptable and the new norm on CC.  Im glad I posted.   I truly had learned alot.

 

Yestersday the gentlemen in most of the photos on this post (current Viking Star cruise) was in the outdoor middle pool while the band was playing for a festive sail away.  He was in the pool by himself for about an hour.  His dog was near the pool.  The dog started out on the ground by the lounge chair and then was smart went and moved under the lounge chair to be in the shade.  The owner, who was wearing feet flippers and hand finns did his pool calisthenics including barbell dip type of exercises.

One of the passengers felt sorry for the dog and (wait for it) brought the dog water in one of the human blue plastic drinking glasses.

Viking was dooped or chose to look the other way with these 4 dogs currently on the Star.  Hopefully they learned we passengers will not put up with this and Im very grateful for the CC platform where we can have conversations and alert others.

I don't blame the passenger for assisting the dog with a beaker, needs must to prevent the animal suffering, but the owner should look after it, also how essential is the dog if left alone for so long (as opposed to a supervised break from working) 

[Jim Avery]

And what happens when my "Emotional Support" pit bull attacks your "Emotional Support" poofie-woofie?😱  Whose task is it to wade into the fray and separate them?  Bet they don't teach that at the Viking School...

[KBs mum]

35 minutes ago, Jim Avery said:

And what happens when my "Emotional Support" pit bull attacks your "Emotional Support" poofie-woofie?😱  Whose task is it to wade into the fray and separate them?  Bet they don't teach that at the Viking School...

More importantly, what happens when the emotional support dog attacks or gets in the way of the service/assistance dog

[dd57]

4 hours ago, Sunflower & The Scientist said:

" The dog was trained to be up on the bed while he slept.  He was trained to sit on the coach, (thinking they meant couch) " DD57 stated. 

 

I haven't mentioned that in my post because I didn't want to add more issues to this already complex subject, but I will make a clarification on this issue. Our service dog as part of her task was to sleep at the foot of my bed to waken me if my daughters ventilator alarm went off. (My daughter depended on a ventilator to breath and our service dog was trained to distinguish alarm sounds and alert me. Yes....it was amazing!)  When a 60 pound lab jumps on you, it is effective.  BUT....as I have said before, part of owning a service dog is the training the handler receives. We carried a thick blanket with us when we stayed in hotels. The blanket was spread over the bed so our service dog did not have direct contact with bedding. We were instructed in our training that it was our responsibility as handlers to insure we held to the highest standards of cleanliness and and consideration for others. My hope would be that individuals using service dogs that were trained to alert and needed to be in direct physical contact, would be trained in the proper way of doing that, whether it be a bed, chair or couch. That would include the responsibility of providing a proper barrier between the service dog and furniture or bedding. 

 

I believe if people were seeing a high standard of cleanliness and consideration of others, they would not be questioning whether these dogs were legitimate service dogs.  

 

 

 

 

 

That makes a lot of sense.  I only saw the dog in his house and in his RV, so I have no idea what they were trained together to do when traveling.  I was just pointing out that there are cases where close proximity is trained into the dog.

 

And the whole feeding under the table thing sure sounds like a pet to me.

[TayanaLorna]

1 hour ago, Jim Avery said:

And what happens when my "Emotional Support" pit bull attacks your "Emotional Support" poofie-woofie?😱  Whose task is it to wade into the fray and separate them?  Bet they don't teach that at the Viking School...

True story here.  I work with an animal rescue organization and we were slowly befriending a stray on my road.  A lady down the road has an "emotional support" dog and drove by us with her dog in the back seat.  The window was down and the dog leaped through it, attacked and killed the dog we were trying to rescue.  When asked how could she let that happen and looked for some explanation or remorse, she said her dog thought the stray was threatening her that is why her dog killed it.

[Frenchberet]

1 hour ago, KBs mum said:

More importantly, what happens when the emotional support dog attacks or gets in the way of the service/assistance dog

Or ESA/pet nips a passenger… 

[Breckski]

Sorry if my question has been already answered in this post.  I skimmed through but didn't read every post.

 

Are the emotional support animals allowed in the cabins?  Or are they treated like Cunard handles pets where they are not in the cabins?  

 

I've already emailed Viking about these pets as I would not be happy if they were on my upcoming cruise.  In addition, I do not want a cabin that has been used for pets on a regular basis.

[Jim Avery]

As far as I know yes they are allowed in the cabin. Viking ships don’t have the dedicated kennel area like Cunard. I’m with you on this.

[Hobson1754]

54 minutes ago, mwike said:

In addition, I do not want a cabin that has been used for pets on a regular basis.

That was one of my main concerns and included it in my email to Viking - which I’m still waiting for an acknowledgment/response to.