Lagniappe: Canines on Seabourn, Carry ons on international flights, bus etiquette, etc.

[lincslady]

We are very much off the original topic - but maybe a good thing; it shows that  we are less enraged  about the canine matter, and more inclined to sensible rational talk about it.  Not that it should not be dealt with, however.

[cruisr]

I cruise for itinerary.  I have been on Oceania and really enjoyed it.  I have not priced anything out since Simply More was introduced on July 1.  There is a bit of a heated discussion about it on the Oceania board.

[Hanoj]

On 6/30/2023 at 8:51 AM, SLSD said:

As everyone knows, there have recently been dogs on Seabourn cruises.  Most recently, there was a small dog on our Ovation cruise up the coast of Norway.  At the outset of this discussion, I want to make it plain that I am a dog lover.  Not only do we have a dog ( a miniature long haired dachshund), but in our extended family, we have a certified service dog (who stays with our great-nephew to alert for epileptic seizures).  The service dog in our family is highly and specifically trained and required a real commitment (both in dollars and continuing expectation of behavior from his now family).  They know what to expect from a service dog, keep up with his training and do not deviate from it.  In other words, they will not allow the public to pet him, he is not off leash in public and not treated as a regular pet. 

 

The dog on the recent Ovation itinerary was a small dog.  I am not sure of the breed.  I first encountered him at tea as his owners had him at the table next to ours at the Observation Lounge.  Prior to his arrival, his owner(s) had saved their table for almost an hour (perhaps longer) by throwing a jacket over one of the chairs.  The jacket was there when we arrived to our table and no one claimed the table for 45 minutes.  All that time, there were people arriving and looking for a table.  When the dog arrived, I observed him being fed under the table.  Already we recognized that the owners were not rule followers as they felt entitled enough to save a table for themselves, not considering that no one would have use of that table for almost an hour just because they had claimed it with a jacket.  

 

In subsequent days, I observed that the dog was accompanying its owner on various excursions, riding on buses, going up skylifts, going into dining venues, etc.  This did not go without notice by others.  Quite a few people were discussing the dog.  I only observed one person saying that the dog was cute.  Everyone else had noticed that the owners were not rule followers and seemed to feel entitled.  In fact, one passenger told me (and others) and she had asked the owners about the dog. She specifically asked what kind of service dog the dog was.  The answer was "it's complicated".  This passenger was shown the dog's service dog certificate by the owner and reported that the certificate looked like something that could be printed from the internet.  

 

Another passenger told me that she had heard ship's staff telling the dog owner that the dog could not be let off leash in Norway.  Even though they were told this by Seabourn staff, they did indeed let the dog off leash in Tromso on the mountain we reached by the sky lift.  I observed this myself.  On a later excursion in Lom, Norway, I personally observed the dog off leash in a grassy area which had a specific sign stating (through words and illustration) that dogs were not to be off leash in that area.  None of this seemed to matter to the dog's owner.  As an aside, I will comment that one would expect the owner of a highly trained service dog to be aware of the importance of following rules concerning dogs. 

 

I overheard quite a bit of complaint about the dog.  At one point, there were people saying that they were not going to board a bus until they knew which bus the dog would be on.  No one was happy--and the general consensus among passengers was that this was not a true service dog and that the owners did not follow instructions or rules pertaining to dogs.   

 

One evening, when we were on deck nine around the pool, the dog was on ten (right above) and barking.  A highly trained service dog would not be likely to bark.  Another afternoon, the owner was on a chaise around the pool with the dog on top of her stomach, sleeping.  Not what is expected from a service dog.  Another evening, I saw the owner talking to the maitre d' at the TK Grill, exhorting  them that they wanted to dine there on a particular day/time.  The maitre d' was no doubt in a bit of an awkward spot having fielded complaints about the dog in the grill previously and the owner being a very squeaky (and annoying) wheel.  

 

I'm sure there is more to this story.  From what I have read, Seabourn does allow certified service dogs onboard.  It is a shame that this particular dog (if indeed it was a certified and true service dog) departed from usual service dog behavior.  

 

 

 

 

Perhaps the offending pet owner will take an Alaskan cruise and permit the dog to go ashore unleashed. This could provide a great opportunity to witness wildlife up close as Bald Eagles have been reported to swoop down and carry small dogs away. Eagles have needs too.

[Vineyard View]

10 hours ago, cruisr said:

I cruise for itinerary.  I have been on Oceania and really enjoyed it.  I have not priced anything out since Simply More was introduced on July 1.  There is a bit of a heated discussion about it on the Oceania board.

Thank you. The new Simply more program worked in our favor in a big way ($4k-$5k difference over SB same number of days concierge cabin, different bit pricier part of the Mediterranean generally, 1 month different sailing time), making the decision very difficult. The new pricing structure however, it’s all over the board how it’s affecting pricing and mostly increasing it. 
 

Regarding dogs, cruise lines in my opinion need to get their arms around this issue. Anyone can print from the internet that their dogs are service dogs, when in fact they are pets. It’s a sticky wicket with the ADA wording, but in this year alone, I have read about the “service dogs’ (aka spoiled pets and entitled owners), on Seabourn, Viking, and Oceania. In all cases it was an issue due to lack of training and disruption of passengers. 
 

Regarding the bus situation OP posted, I do not believe that you were by any means out of line. If someone knows they will hold everyone up, for a myriad of reasons, it seems the polite thing to let others go before them. Yet one of many reasons we avoid excursions. 

[Ovener]

I find the issue of dogs on board so unimaginable that I had to ask AI what it might look like. It's worse than I thought...this critter is even wearing denim and vaping!  Seriously, though, dogs on board a ship are a massive turn off for me. Imagine being stuck in a lift with one. That's wrong on so many levels.

 

[lincslady]

I believe that this particular dog and owner had been on a Seabourn ship before - could they have been the ones who did the TA Europe to the States?  Where the dog pooped on a corridor carpet, witnessed by others.

[SLSD]

8 hours ago, lincslady said:

I believe that this particular dog and owner had been on a Seabourn ship before - could they have been the ones who did the TA Europe to the States?  Where the dog pooped on a corridor carpet, witnessed by others.

It is amazing to me, if indeed this is the same owner and dog, that SB allowed them to sail again with the dog.  

[markham]

SLSD,

 

I have to ask when did Seabourn ever ban someone who has caused disruption during a cruise? 

Unless you punch someone out you are good to go and go and go. Any and all serious complaints  are treated with “sorry you feel that way” and/or “sorry for the inconvenience” platitudes. 
 

I wish someone would disagree. Until then I deduce that Seabourn is fill her up capacity driven, and hardly concerned with these matters.

Happy and healthy sailing!

[SLSD]

21 minutes ago, markham said:

SLSD,

Until then I deduce that Seabourn is fill her up capacity driven, and hardly concerned with these matters.

Happy and healthy sailing!

 I think you are correct Markham.  The allowance of dogs and  the selling of blocks of suites to discount travel agents both are aimed toward filling the ship.  The itinerary after our recent one was only at 300+ passengers.  Another itinerary up the Norwegian coast begins today.  I wonder if we can find out how many  are onboard.  

[lincslady]

2 hours ago, SLSD said:

It is amazing to me, if indeed this is the same owner and dog, that SB allowed them to sail again with the dog.  

Actually, I think it is more likely.  This person (an elderly lady I believe)  would have been for some reason considered  'entitled' to special treatment on the ships.  It is not difficult to think of reasons for this, such as a huge spender, or related to someone high up in the Carnival/Seabourn hierarchy for instance.  I admit to being  cynical; it tends to happen when you get old and have seen it all.

[SLSD]

7 minutes ago, lincslady said:

Actually, I think it is more likely.  This person (an elderly lady I believe)  would have been for some reason considered  'entitled' to special treatment on the ships.  It is not difficult to think of reasons for this, such as a huge spender, or related to someone high up in the Carnival/Seabourn hierarchy for instance.  I admit to being  cynical; it tends to happen when you get old and have seen it all.

It is hard to judge the age of the dog's owner.  It is quite possible that she is no older than I am (71).  She certainly wasn't mobility challenged or anything like that.  I tried to never get any closer than I had to, so I didn't observe details  as to her age.  She was about the ship several times that I saw her without her dog.  She spoke English, but in a rather broken manner and was always quite brusque.  She certainly wasn't getting special treatment from the maitre d' at the TK Grill from what I observed.  I can't remember if it was a man or woman that night--but they had a wary and exasperated tone as they told her that she WAS on the wait list.  

Edited July 9, 2023 by SLSD

[MsOne]

Hint #1 it wasn't a service dog, the fact that they had "paperwork" as a "certified" service dog.

...interesting that someone else posted about their "certified service dog."

[MarciAnn]

I sympathize with you about the dog issue but, to a large extent, a cruise line's hands are tied by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is a federal law, when it comes to allowing service animals.  If a passenger claims he has a disability that requires him or her to have a service animal,  the cruise line is required to allow it and  can only ask if the dog is required because of a disability and what work or task the dog has been trained to provide.  The cruise line can NOT ask the nature of the passenger's disability, require certification of training or ask that the dog demonstrate its task. If a cruise line refuses a passenger's request, it an be subject to liability under the statute.  There are a few rules however, including the fact that the dog must be with the "disabled" passenger at all times (can't leave the dog in the cabin), the dog must be leashed at all times (unless it interferes with the task it is trained to provide), and if the dog can not be controlled it can be excluded. There are some additional exclusions and I refer you to the statute, but in general  it is not that difficult to "game the system." You will have to take it up with your Congressman.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by MarciAnn

[highplanesdrifters]

8 hours ago, MarciAnn said:

I sympathize with you about the dog issue but, to a large extent, a cruise line's hands are tied by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is a federal law, when it comes to allowing service animals.  If a passenger claims he has a disability that requires him or her to have a service animal,  the cruise line is required to allow it and  can only ask if the dog is required because of a disability and what work or task the dog has been trained to provide.  The cruise line can NOT ask the nature of the passenger's disability, require certification of training or ask that the dog demonstrate its task. If a cruise line refuses a passenger's request, it an be subject to liability under the statute.  There are a few rules however, including the fact that the dog must be with the "disabled" passenger at all times (can't leave the dog in the cabin), the dog must be leashed at all times (unless it interferes with the task it is trained to provide), and if the dog can not be controlled it can be excluded. There are some additional exclusions and I refer you to the statute, but in general  it is not that difficult to "game the system." You will have to take it up with your Congressman.

 

Well said! 

It begs the question: If the rules are not being followed, what can the other guests do about it, other than complain to management which does nothing?

 

[Kamfish642]

10 hours ago, MarciAnn said:

I sympathize with you about the dog issue but, to a large extent, a cruise line's hands are tied by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is a federal law, when it comes to allowing service animals.  If a passenger claims he has a disability that requires him or her to have a service animal,  the cruise line is required to allow it and  can only ask if the dog is required because of a disability and what work or task the dog has been trained to provide.  The cruise line can NOT ask the nature of the passenger's disability, require certification of training or ask that the dog demonstrate its task. If a cruise line refuses a passenger's request, it an be subject to liability under the statute.  There are a few rules however, including the fact that the dog must be with the "disabled" passenger at all times (can't leave the dog in the cabin), the dog must be leashed at all times (unless it interferes with the task it is trained to provide), and if the dog can not be controlled it can be excluded. There are some additional exclusions and I refer you to the statute, but in general  it is not that difficult to "game the system." You will have to take it up with your Congressman.

 

If the vessel is not register in US and not calling on a US port, then I don't believe that ADA would apply?

[Cantara24]

4 minutes ago, Kamfish642 said:

If the vessel is not register in US and not calling on a US port, then I don't believe that ADA would apply?

Correct, both foreign & US flagged ships operating in US waters (i.e. 12 mile offshore limit)

[SLSD]

13 minutes ago, Kamfish642 said:

If the vessel is not register in US and not calling on a US port, then I don't believe that ADA would apply?

i did just a bit of research and it appears the ADA does apply to these ships--and many others.  

 

And, I realize that this is not a Seabourn statement--but here is the statement by Royal Caribbean on the topic:  https://www.royalcaribbean.com/experience/accessible-cruising/service-animals

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by SLSD

[hoya68]

I don't believe so. If Microsoft discriminates against someone in Italy, Italian law would apply. I am not an expert in maritime law, but to the extent that the ship is not under U.S. jurisdiction (i. e. in territorial waters or a US flagged vessel) I believe it would be subject to the law of the country of registry (the Bahamas).

[SLSD]

From what I read any ship that operates in US waters (including 12 miles off shore) is subject to the ADA.  This may mean any ship that EVER operates in these waters--or is part of a fleet that does.  I'm just guessing this would be claimed in a lawsuit.   The fact that Carnival/Seabourn are based in the US adds to this argument. 

 

Here is what Carnival says its policy is:  https://www.carnival.com/about-carnival/special-needs/service-dogs.aspx

 

And here is information about traveling with a service dog in Europe:  https://www.servicedogcertifications.org/guide-for-traveling-with-a-service-dog-in-europe/

 

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by SLSD

[Cantara24]

15 minutes ago, SLSD said:

Here is what Carnival says its policy is:  https://www.carnival.com/about-carnival/special-needs/service-dogs.aspx

Carnival actually clarified this in 2015 with DOJ and a ruling was made. Carnival's policy is quite clear on service dogs in training, emotional support dogs, pets as the document in your link evidences; these animals are not recognized by the DOJ. 

An interesting discussion, I remain in the camp that Seabourn bends over for it's "special entitled" guests. Why ... who knows.

[MarciAnn]

 I sympathize with you about the dog issue but, to a large extent, a cruise line's hands are tied by the Americans with Disabilities Act, which is a federal law, when it comes to allowing service animals.  If a passenger claims he has a disability that requires him or her to have a service animal,  the cruise line is required to allow it and  can only ask if the dog is required because of a disability and what work or task the dog has been trained to provide.  The cruise line can NOT ask the nature of the passenger's disability, require certification of training or ask that the dog demonstrate its task. If a cruise line refuses a passenger's request, it an be subject to liability under the statute.  There are a few rules however, including the fact that the dog must be with the "disabled" passenger at all times (can't leave the dog in the cabin),the dog must be leashed at all times (unless it interferes with the task it is trained to provide), and if the dog can not be controlled it can be excluded. There are some additional exclusions and I refer you to the statute, but in general  it is not difficult to "game the system" as it seems this passenger did.  You will have to take it up with your Congressman.

 

[MarciAnn]

SLDS is correct if the cruise line operates within US water it is subject to the ADA.  If a passenger does not comply with the rules as to his his or her service dog, management should enforce the rules especially if it interferes with other passengers' enjoyment.  Unfortunately, some cruise lines may not train their employees fully when it comes to service animals.  They should be leashed (unless it interferes with the task the dog is trained for, but the cruise line is allowed to what the task is (altho not the disability). The dog must also be housebroken and relieve itself in specific areas designated by the ship. Some cruise ships do not allow service dogs in the spa if they deem it a safety issue (which is ok).  Also, not all third party excursions providers in foreign countries allow service animals and this is not within Seabourn's control. 

 

With all of this said, let's not forget that there are passengers who truly can not travel without a service animal and not all disabilities are readily discernible. For example, an otherwise healthy looking passenger subject to seizures may need a service dog to alert them of an oncoming seizure (based on symptoms) so that medication may be taken or alert another passenger (by barking).  Let's not assume all dogs are merely pets. 

[SLSD]

1 hour ago, MarciAnn said:

  Let's not assume all dogs are merely pets. 

I don't think anyone here has ever assumed that all dogs are merely pets.  I started this thread to give my observations from a recent cruise. I am in favor of service dogs for those who need them.  Service dogs are highly trained dog which require upholding their training at all times while in service.  

[SLSD]

1 hour ago, MarciAnn said:

 I sympathize with you about the dog issue but, to a large extent, a cruise line's hands are tied by the ADA.

 

I don't think anyone here is asking for sympathy--and I gave my own observations made while onboard Ovation.  I think there is a suspicion that people are using the ADA to bring pets onboard and that these same people are prone to flaunting other rules concerning dogs.  For example, I observed the owner of the dog without her dog on the ship.  I also observed the dog being let off leash in Norway--including in a place that had a clear sign that no dogs were to be off leash. Because so many people suspected that this dog was not a true service dog, the dog and its owners were closely observed.  

Edited July 21, 2023 by SLSD

[Hobar]

Regarding service animals, the ADA recognizes that service animals include miniature horses (trained, certified, etc), so where will SB draw the line? “Emotional support animals” (‘ESA”) include almost any animal you could think of, of which cute and fluffy tiny dogs (as described in the posts here), are allowed the same or very similar access as support animals, but no longer.  Airlines and most hotels, for example, do not allow ESAs. It troubles me to think that a passenger would take advantage of a law designed to help those with disabilities, so I hope it was a service animal.  (At least it wasn’t a horse.)  

Edited July 22, 2023 by Hobar
Grammar.