Hey Carnival! If you are going to hike up the price of cruises, why don't you....

[tidecat]

25 minutes ago, Saint Greg said:

There is no bundling with Carnival. With NCL and Princess there is. Wi-Fi, internet, drinks, and more bundles costs less on those lines than just the drink package alone on carnival.

 

I went ahead and booked the plus bundle for my Princess sailing. I figured at 18 months out I will beat at least one increase on the gratuity and Internet. I now get two "casual dining" specialty meals covered. If I take advantage of the fitness classes it would not take much of a bar tab to break even on the cost of the package. The base fare was only slightly more than the Carnival cruises I looked at that week out of Miami and Port Canaveral. Officially I have an obstructed balcony because it has a metal outer wall instead of glass but due to its location its location it is actually larger than normal.

[BlerkOne]

50 minutes ago, Saint Greg said:

There is no bundling with Carnival. With NCL and Princess there is. Wi-Fi, internet, drinks, and more bundles costs less on those lines than just the drink package alone on carnival.

 

This is true. I tend to think people on Princess don[t drink as much as people on Carnival. Bonus on Princess - they still serve Coke products. Carnival Corp truly has cruise lines for everyone.

 

The latest rant about Princess is that they cut out some included for all services (like the Premium pizzeria) and moved them to the packages. Also raised the package prices. Helps slow the increase in cruise prices and encourages sales of packages.

 

NCL likes to sell cruises early for more money and then drop the prices after final payment to sell cabins, if needed. Carnival prefers to fill cabins earlier. Sometimes NCL really gouges (IMO) on shore excursions (hence a shore excursion credit). For example:

https://www.ncl.com/shore-excursions/ICY_13/Scenic-Mountain-Ascent-World-s-Largest-ZipRider

 

https://www.carnival.com/shore-excursions/icy-strait-point/skyglider--world-s-largest-ziprider-701011

 

It isn't casino offers vs normal customers. It is more like targeted casino offers in advance vs steeply discounted cruises for all as the cruise nears.

 

It is all an illusion. I think everyone should try other cruise lines. I know I have. Carnival certainly wasn't my first cruise line.

[Saint Greg]

32 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

This is true. I tend to think people on Princess don[t drink as much as people on Carnival. Bonus on Princess - they still serve Coke products. Carnival Corp truly has cruise lines for everyone.

 

The latest rant about Princess is that they cut out some included for all services (like the Premium pizzeria) and moved them to the packages. Also raised the package prices. Helps slow the increase in cruise prices and encourages sales of packages.

 

NCL likes to sell cruises early for more money and then drop the prices after final payment to sell cabins, if needed. Carnival prefers to fill cabins earlier. Sometimes NCL really gouges (IMO) on shore excursions (hence a shore excursion credit). For example:

https://www.ncl.com/shore-excursions/ICY_13/Scenic-Mountain-Ascent-World-s-Largest-ZipRider

 

https://www.carnival.com/shore-excursions/icy-strait-point/skyglider--world-s-largest-ziprider-701011

 

It isn't casino offers vs normal customers. It is more like targeted casino offers in advance vs steeply discounted cruises for all as the cruise nears.

 

It is all an illusion. I think everyone should try other cruise lines. I know I have. Carnival certainly wasn't my first cruise line.

I thought the NCL excursion credit was a raise the price and we’ll give you $50 off thing. But there are legitimately $50 excursions you can get for free with that. I have a $70 one I got for $20.

 

[Saint Greg]

1 hour ago, tidecat said:

I went ahead and booked the plus bundle for my Princess sailing. I figured at 18 months out I will beat at least one increase on the gratuity and Internet. I now get two "casual dining" specialty meals covered. If I take advantage of the fitness classes it would not take much of a bar tab to break even on the cost of the package. The base fare was only slightly more than the Carnival cruises I looked at that week out of Miami and Port Canaveral. Officially I have an obstructed balcony because it has a metal outer wall instead of glass but due to its location its location it is actually larger than normal.

Yeah that’s what I got. Princess plus.

 

[Saint Greg]

4 hours ago, jimbo5544 said:

  As you branch out, please come over and post link, I always enjoy the read, the journey, the adventure.  Was hoping to cruise with you (and get included in the secret club with Jammin).  But forever is a long time.

Yeah I’ll post my NCL thread in my Venezia thread. I’ll probably do the same for my Princess thread.

 

 

[Itried4498]

7 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

People demanding lower prices are a reason behind cuts in services to accommodate the consumer. A la carte pricing will cost more than bundling. All cruise lines sell illusions and marketing departments help them. There is never one size fits all. Princess and Carnival are owned by the same corporation. These are universal truths.

 

 

I don’t necessarily agree with that,  Across the industry, we’ve seen prices continue to swell — for everything from the base cruise price to inclusions — despite cruise fares hitting historic highs.  Obviously it’s not limited to the cruise industry — a client I maintain as a side hustle owns many apartment complexes and is shuttering many amenities even after rents have nearly doubled in 5 years.  The thinking is with most communities having a waiting list to get in, why should I bother to spend on anything extra.  Cruise liners would make everything a la carte if they could.  
 

For a few months early in the year, Carnival did bundle the drink package with its fares.  The fares didn’t default to the package, so you had to look for it, but it was a good deal if you plan on getting the package anyway.  On many week long cruises, it was $200-500 more for two drink packages + two soda package for a family of four sharing a cabin (Later the offer was restricted to two adults).  NCL’s “free” drink packages would add $1600-2000 in “gratuities.”

[ChrisCJR]

On 8/3/2023 at 6:03 PM, Colorado Beach Bum said:

  And the article you posted shows how cruising is still significantly cheaper than land based vacations so as those have increased why wouldn’t we expect cruises to increase?  

 

I mean, I do expect costs to increase, but their example was a week at Walt Disney World.  I find Disney to be well above average in its pricing. 

 

Also worth mentioning, Disney is currently struggling to fill their rooms and seeing a series of attendance declines at Walt Disney World.  I'm not sure you want to strive to match a business in decline. 

 

There are other much more reasonable land-based examples to compare to than Walt Disney World, which is best compared to their own cruise line.  If Carnival wants to match the quality, value and service of Disney Cruise Line, I'm all for it.  Otherwise, it's a laughable comparison. 

 

I just took a land-based vacation for about half the cost of a cruise.  It was wonderful too.  That doesn't mean that I'm done with cruising, I have two booked, but I think their math is off.

[BlerkOne]

I can't think of a cruise line that is being as persecuted as Disney is.

[Itried4498]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

I can't think of a cruise line that is being as persecuted as Disney is.

It’s not limited to Disney.  The whole travel industry is seeing softening demand.  Airlines keep running sales — last week, American and United had fares from Los Angeles to Chicago for OW$75 (and $68 from Orange County), Miami for $69-$89, Boston $89, etc.  Solid availability though January, except around Thanksgiving / Christmas-New Year’s.

 

Consumer debt (non-mortgage/ student loans) is rising at a starting pace and data shows people have raided their personal and retirement savings.  As I’ve written on here before, there’s just no way that airfares, hotels and car rentals are going to stay at the levels they’re at for the long term.  The reason they got to the point where they are is because people stayed at home during the pandemic, enabling savings to reach historic highs.  But that money’s been spent, and people are relying on credit cards to maintain their lifestyles.

 

The primary reason cruise fares swelled to begin with is because they offered a lower cost alternative to a land vacation.  But cruise execs are eyeballing prices at the most exclusive destinations and see $$$, even though most people would prefer those vacations over a cruise.

 

There’s a very good chance that come 2024, we’ll see mass cancellations and lots of good deals, as the industry prices itself into a trap.

[BlerkOne]

37 minutes ago, Itried4498 said:

It’s not limited to Disney.  The whole travel industry is seeing softening demand.  Airlines keep running sales — last week, American and United had fares from Los Angeles to Chicago for OW$75 (and $68 from Orange County), Miami for $69-$89, Boston $89, etc.  Solid availability though January, except around Thanksgiving / Christmas-New Year’s.

 

Consumer debt (non-mortgage/ student loans) is rising at a starting pace and data shows people have raided their personal and retirement savings.  As I’ve written on here before, there’s just no way that airfares, hotels and car rentals are going to stay at the levels they’re at for the long term.  The reason they got to the point where they are is because people stayed at home during the pandemic, enabling savings to reach historic highs.  But that money’s been spent, and people are relying on credit cards to maintain their lifestyles.

 

The primary reason cruise fares swelled to begin with is because they offered a lower cost alternative to a land vacation.  But cruise execs are eyeballing prices at the most exclusive destinations and see $$$, even though most people would prefer those vacations over a cruise.

 

There’s a very good chance that come 2024, we’ll see mass cancellations and lots of good deals, as the industry prices itself into a trap.

Airlines have had to cough up record amounts of money to keep pilots from striking. Prices will only keep trending up despite an occasional hiccup. The UPS settlement is going to drive the cost of many goods and services up.

 

Business travelers account for the vast majority of airline profits and they are still going to travel.

 

Carnival doesn't bundle because they don't want to. Not because of competition, but to avoid competing more with a sister cruise line. Carnival offers choice - most people don't want to be forced to buy a drink package.

 

I doubt there will be mass cancellations, but if so, those with the most ships on order (not Carnival) will be in a downward spiral.

[CruizinSusan70]

On 8/3/2023 at 6:06 PM, ChinaShrek said:

Many, many people have no idea that they will be charged gratuities until they are on the ship. I have heard numerous people at customer service asking what the charges are for. Including gratuities would eliminate the confusion and long lines at customer service.

Yep, so many people that cruise for the first time decide to cruise on Carnival and if not possibly MSC.  It's not a coincidence that the guest services line on these two cruise lines have the line weaving all over the place since there are so many people trying to remove the "optional" gratuities.  I too wish it were just baked into the cruise fare and eliminate the possibility of having cruisers remove them.  I can remember many times overhearing disgruntled parents upset over the fact that it was over 400.00 between the parents and their two kids for gratuities for the week and they were absolutely clueless about it and wanted the GSR to remove them immediately.  Their opinion was that kids should not have to pay gratuities at all.

[CruizinSusan70]

19 hours ago, Itried4498 said:

For a few months early in the year, Carnival did bundle the drink package with its fares.

No, Carnival has NEVER packaged Cheers with it's fares for everyone.  If YOU received this offer, it was target marketed to you and other cruisers that the algorithm deemed worthy of receiving it. 

A few years ago, Carnival had RU1, RU2, RU3 and RU9 promo codes that were combining Cheers with future bookings.  The RU9 code was a joke and you could have gotten Cheers on your own cheaper.  The other three saved money of varying degrees with the RU1 providing the cheapest fare.

 

Never assume that any promotional codes that you receive are available to every Carnival cruiser because in reality, they are not.   Just like there are a plethora of different promotions available to the gambler, not everyone gets the opportunity to partake in a great promotion.

[CruizinSusan70]

19 hours ago, Itried4498 said:

  NCL’s “free” drink packages would add $1600-2000 in “gratuities.”

NCL's inflated drink packages cost $109.00 pppd.  If you get the FAS package you pay 20% in gratuities or 21.80 pppd to have the drinks package as one of your included perks.   If you times this by 2 adults and 7 days for a week's cruise, the total is $305.20, which is no where near 1600-2000. 

 

I know this by first hand experience cruising on them 8 times, with a 9th booking which is 9 days in length and we're paying $392.40 for the gratuities on the drinks package for the two of us for the 9 day cruise.

[CruizinSusan70]

On 8/12/2023 at 3:57 PM, tidecat said:

I went ahead and booked the plus bundle for my Princess sailing. I figured at 18 months out I will beat at least one increase on the gratuity and Internet. I now get two "casual dining" specialty meals covered. If I take advantage of the fitness classes it would not take much of a bar tab to break even on the cost of the package. The base fare was only slightly more than the Carnival cruises I looked at that week out of Miami and Port Canaveral. Officially I have an obstructed balcony because it has a metal outer wall instead of glass but due to its location its location it is actually larger than normal.

On Princess, the Plus 60 package only requires you to have a 29.00 bar tab after factoring out the cost of tips (16) and wifi (15) per day.  The offerings on Princess are similar to the offerings with Cheers since you get unlimited non alcoholic beverages such as soda, water, coffee, mocktails, etc.  And just like Carnival, the alcoholic drinks cap out at 15 per day.  The two areas where Princess excels though is that Princess still has Coke products and they also include a new juice bar, where the fresh squeezed OJ on Carnival is not included with Cheers.  And the tips are included in the package on Princess, where it costs extra on Carnival.  For what you get with the Plus package for 60 on Princess it would cost you over 100 on Carnival.

[BlerkOne]

17 minutes ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

On Princess, the Plus 60 package only requires you to have a 29.00 bar tab after factoring out the cost of tips (16) and wifi (15) per day.  The offerings on Princess are similar to the offerings with Cheers since you get unlimited non alcoholic beverages such as soda, water, coffee, mocktails, etc.  And just like Carnival, the alcoholic drinks cap out at 15 per day.  The two areas where Princess excels though is that Princess still has Coke products and they also include a new juice bar, where the fresh squeezed OJ on Carnival is not included with Cheers.  And the tips are included in the package on Princess, where it costs extra on Carnival.  For what you get with the Plus package for 60 on Princess it would cost you over 100 on Carnival.

I still maintain that, on average, Carnival cruisers will drink more alcohol than Princess cruisers. That alone explains Carnival's alcohol package costing more on Princess. But we have already seen one increase in the cost of the Princess packages and I wouldn't be surprised to see more.

 

Princess Platinum and above get a 50% discount on WiFi, so there's that.

 

It seems like more people threaten to pulls tips on Princess, so that is one reason for Princess to bundle them into packages where they can't be removed.

 

As I've said before, Carnival Corp offers a number of different cruise lines, with something for everyone. Choice is good.

 

[Itried4498]

2 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

Airlines have had to cough up record amounts of money to keep pilots from striking. Prices will only keep trending up despite an occasional hiccup. The UPS settlement is going to drive the cost of many goods and services up.

 

Business travelers account for the vast majority of airline profits and they are still going to travel.

 

Carnival doesn't bundle because they don't want to. Not because of competition, but to avoid competing more with a sister cruise line. Carnival offers choice - most people don't want to be forced to buy a drink package.

 

I doubt there will be mass cancellations, but if so, those with the most ships on order (not Carnival) will be in a downward spiral.

Traditional business travel hasn’t recovered since the pandemic and airlines have made it clear that they are relying on premium leisure.  Gone are the days of the business traveler sitting up front, subsidizing the cost of those in the back.

 

The market drives prices.  Companies can only raise prices to the extent that consumers are willing to pay the price increases.  And as I mentioned, the travel industry as a whole is starting to see softening demand.  WSJ pointed out recently that cheap, close to home attractions are seeing demand spike.  It’s not a coincidence.

 

 

[Itried4498]

1 hour ago, CruizinSusan70 said:

No, Carnival has NEVER packaged Cheers with it's fares for everyone.  If YOU received this offer, it was target marketed to you and other cruisers that the algorithm deemed worthy of receiving it. 

A few years ago, Carnival had RU1, RU2, RU3 and RU9 promo codes that were combining Cheers with future bookings.  The RU9 code was a joke and you could have gotten Cheers on your own cheaper.  The other three saved money of varying degrees with the RU1 providing the cheapest fare.

 

Never assume that any promotional codes that you receive are available to every Carnival cruiser because in reality, they are not.   Just like there are a plethora of different promotions available to the gambler, not everyone gets the opportunity to partake in a great promotion.

 

Carnival definitely offered bundled fares earlier this year.  The promotion was open to everyone and was on their front page for a time.  These were NOT the lowest fares, which the system defaults to.  You had to scroll through the various fares to see them.  Chrome doesn’t do that but Edge and Firefox does.

 

And regarding NCL… they have free at see and non free at sea fares.  The latter are not available on every cruise, generally show up later, but are far cheaper.

[BlerkOne]

27 minutes ago, Itried4498 said:

Traditional business travel hasn’t recovered since the pandemic and airlines have made it clear that they are relying on premium leisure.  Gone are the days of the business traveler sitting up front, subsidizing the cost of those in the back.

 

The market drives prices.  Companies can only raise prices to the extent that consumers are willing to pay the price increases.  And as I mentioned, the travel industry as a whole is starting to see softening demand.  WSJ pointed out recently that cheap, close to home attractions are seeing demand spike.  It’s not a coincidence.

 

 

The market has driven a lot of businesses under. as has lack of employees.

 

It is true demand for air travel is lessening, but that is normal as we are approaching the end of summer.

 

The leisure traveler makes up the bulk of passengers; the business traveler is still the cash cow.

[BlerkOne]

27 minutes ago, Itried4498 said:

 

And regarding NCL… they have free at see and non free at sea fares.  The latter are not available on every cruise, generally show up later, but are far cheaper.

Both are generally available, but even if you decline the Free at Sea, you are still paying for it. You just escape paying the service charges.

 

NCL doesn't offer price protection fares like Carnival does, and neither does Princess. This is one of the reasons NCL holds prices higher until after final payment and then it is too late for those who already booked.

 

 

[Itried4498]

33 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

The market has driven a lot of businesses under. as has lack of employees.

 

It is true demand for air travel is lessening, but that is normal as we are approaching the end of summer.

 

The leisure traveler makes up the bulk of passengers; the business traveler is still the cash cow.

 It’s not just airfare.  It’s been reported throughout industry journals that demand for airfare, hotel, etc. is softening.  It’s not just the fall, either - early bookings for next summer are significantly lower than years’ past.  Hotels are heavily discounting fall and winter travel.  Not only are early summer bookings being offered at a small discount, but with far less restrictions.  Since the pandemic, the lowest hotel rates in leisure markets have generally required some sort of cancellation fee.  Status quo, most everything’s completely refundable.

 

Again… post-pandemic, Americans had historically high savings.  Right now, we’re approaching lows, with consumer debt (non-mortgage/ student loans) at an all time high.  Travel is a luxury.  One report said the majority of Americans cut back on spending in the past year so that they could contribute to travel.  And now they’re broke.

 

At the very least, we’ve probably seen the ceiling for pricing.  The cruise lines can dream, but people can’t spend money they don’t have.  Not to mention, if some people are squeezed out of the travel market, and land prices fall, will all these new cruisers continue to cruise?

 

BTW, I’ve seen some steep discounts though travel agencies for Princess’ cruises during the fall/ winter.  One Holiday itinerary we’re looking at is now over $1500 less (vs direct) for a family of four + includes a $200 additional OBC.  So I wouldn’t be surprised if the cruise lines are already seeing demand weakening.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Itried4498

[BlerkOne]

12 minutes ago, Itried4498 said:

At the very least, we’ve probably seen the ceiling for pricing.  The cruise lines can dream, but people can’t spend money they don’t have.  Not to mention, if some people are squeezed out of the travel market, and land prices fall, will all these new cruisers continue to cruise?

 

BTW, I’ve seen some steep discounts though travel agencies for Princess’ cruises during the fall/ winter.  One Holiday itinerary we’re looking at is now over $1500 less (vs direct) for a family of four + includes a $200 additional OBC.  So I wouldn’t be surprised if the cruise lines are already seeing demand weakening.

Real wages are outpacing inflation. The stock market will take off - if you snooze you lose.

 

Carnival has had targeted discounts for some time. Bookings and occupancy and onboard spend continue to increase.

[Itried4498]

30 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

Real wages are outpacing inflation. The stock market will take off - if you snooze you lose.

 

Carnival has had targeted discounts for some time. Bookings and occupancy and onboard spend continue to increase.

For a whopping two months (or one, depending on when the data settles).  It won’t last.  Since that announcement, fears of recession have eased, leading to soaring prices at the pump and surging rents in most markets (after previously stabilizing, and even decreasing).  

 

The key piece of information that just came out is  that of consumer debt and savings rates.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Itried4498

[icft]

4 hours ago, Itried4498 said:

It’s not limited to Disney.  The whole travel industry is seeing softening demand.  Airlines keep running sales — last week, American and United had fares from Los Angeles to Chicago for OW$75 (and $68 from Orange County), Miami for $69-$89, Boston $89, etc.  Solid availability though January, except around Thanksgiving / Christmas-New Year’s.

 

Consumer debt (non-mortgage/ student loans) is rising at a starting pace and data shows people have raided their personal and retirement savings.  As I’ve written on here before, there’s just no way that airfares, hotels and car rentals are going to stay at the levels they’re at for the long term.  The reason they got to the point where they are is because people stayed at home during the pandemic, enabling savings to reach historic highs.  But that money’s been spent, and people are relying on credit cards to maintain their lifestyles.

 

The primary reason cruise fares swelled to begin with is because they offered a lower cost alternative to a land vacation.  But cruise execs are eyeballing prices at the most exclusive destinations and see $$$, even though most people would prefer those vacations over a cruise.

 

There’s a very good chance that come 2024, we’ll see mass cancellations and lots of good deals, as the industry prices itself into a trap.

I understand what you are saying, but at 70 I have seen this play a few times.

 

I don't think airline price discounts on some routes is indicative of anything other than normal business. Air travel is just approaching pre-covid levels and the problem is not lack of people wanting to fly, it is lack of pilots and air controllers. Minor fluctuations on some routes don't mean much in the larger scheme of things. Ask friends who have traveled recently how many had flights delayed or cancelled because the crew "timed out." Pre-covid that was something you rarely heard. Now we hear it from our friends on a regular basis. 

 

 

Then there is consumer debt. The recent pace of increase is hardly startling compared to the norm over the last 30 years. Finance writers have to come up with something to write about each and every day and often write as if the ripple on the surface of a wave is of great significance.

 

 

And my last point would be mostly anecdotal. I got my economics degree in 1976 and closely observed the inflation of the late 1970s. There were people then saying prices couldn't stay that high because people couldn't afford it. While the rate of inflation subsequently grew at a slower pace, and for commodities and some isolated items decreased, the prices of very few goods or services went down. What happened is wages went up.

 

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. It has acted to protect banks (or as they call it "maintain the strength and stability of the financial markets") ever since and the best way to do that is to have inflation. That is because inflation results in higher wages and prices. That makes it easier for people and businesses to pay off loans. So inflation helps banks avoid losses on loans. They have done a great job. Prices don't go down:

 

[jimbo5544]

9 minutes ago, icft said:

I understand what you are saying, but at 70 I have seen this play a few times.

 

I don't think airline price discounts on some routes is indicative of anything other than normal business. Air travel is just approaching pre-covid levels and the problem is not lack of people wanting to fly, it is lack of pilots and air controllers. Minor fluctuations on some routes don't mean much in the larger scheme of things. Ask friends who have traveled recently how many had flights delayed or cancelled because the crew "timed out." Pre-covid that was something you rarely heard. Now we hear it from our friends on a regular basis. 

 

 

Then there is consumer debt. The recent pace of increase is hardly startling compared to the norm over the last 30 years. Finance writers have to come up with something to write about each and every day and often write as if the ripple on the surface of a wave is of great significance.

 

 

And my last point would be mostly anecdotal. I got my economics degree in 1976 and closely observed the inflation of the late 1970s. There were people then saying prices couldn't stay that high because people couldn't afford it. While the rate of inflation subsequently grew at a slower pace, and for commodities and some isolated items decreased, the prices of very few goods or services went down. What happened is wages went up.

 

The Federal Reserve was created in 1913. It has acted to protect banks (or as they call it "maintain the strength and stability of the financial markets") ever since and the best way to do that is to have inflation. That is because inflation results in higher wages and prices. That makes it easier for people and businesses to pay off loans. So inflation helps banks avoid losses on loans. They have done a great job. Prices don't go down:

 

Wow, nice post

Edited August 14, 2023 by jimbo5544

[FastShip24]

On 8/3/2023 at 2:55 PM, BlerkOne said:

Cruise lines are not immune to rising costs. Just like everything else. Why pick on the cruise lines?

Why not. We are paying for it