Maui

[KeepCalmBearOn]

21 hours ago, Morebeer said:

Know NCL has that Pride of America ship based there in Honolulu. Does anyone know if its being used to transport supplies or for housing on Maui?

 

Hawaii has lots of barges and ships for interisland transportation of goods. They don't need the POA for anything other than what it is, a cruise ship.

[dockman]

NCL has donated 50 k to maui....seems rather paltry considering how much $ they make on having a virtual monopoly on interisland cruises for decades....they make more than 50 k in a single day in a single port selling shore excurisons....hopefully they will come up with a bit more substantial contribution.

[princeton123211]

13 minutes ago, dockman said:

NCL has donated 50 k to maui....seems rather paltry considering how much $ they make on having a virtual monopoly on interisland cruises for decades....they make more than 50 k in a single day in a single port selling shore excurisons....hopefully they will come up with a bit more substantial contribution.

I agree with you in that they should donate more than $50k given their footprint on Hawaii's tourism. But I would suspect that NCL America looses more money than it makes. Pride of America has always been a bit of a disaster with much higher costs compared to operations in the rest of their fleet. 

[KeepCalmBearOn]

5 hours ago, dockman said:

NCL has donated 50 k to maui....seems rather paltry considering how much $ they make on having a virtual monopoly on interisland cruises for decades....they make more than 50 k in a single day in a single port selling shore excurisons....hopefully they will come up with a bit more substantial contribution.

 

I'd love to see your copy of the P&L for POA 🤣

[dockman]

1 hour ago, scottca075 said:

 

I'd love to see your copy of the P&L for POA 🤣

Far as i can tell they do not break out the numbers for POA....but if you take a look at the prices they charge...try $1399 or so plus taxes for inside room for 7 day cruise...and seem to run full a lot...of course when you compare the cost of hotels/food/transport in hawaii these days i guess it is better for many than trying to do it themselves...on the other hand 7 day carib cruises can often be found for about $499 ppdo or sometimes even less ...and yes i know their expenses are higher in hawaii thanks to all the psa requirements...but ....still think 50 K rather paltry ...anyway at least they donated so good for that....i hope a lot of the hotel and other companies in hawaii will also donate which i bet they will...

Edited August 17, 2023 by dockman

[CruiserBruce]

20 minutes ago, dockman said:

Far as i can tell they do not break out the numbers for POA....but if you take a look at the prices they charge...try $1399 or so plus taxes for inside room for 7 day cruise...and seem to run full a lot...of course when you compare the cost of hotels/food/transport in hawaii these days i guess it is better for many than trying to do it themselves...on the other hand 7 day carib cruises can often be found for about $499 ppdo or sometimes even less ...and yes i know their expenses are higher in hawaii thanks to all the psa requirements...but ....still think 50 K rather paltry ...anyway at least they donated so good for that....i hope a lot of the hotel and other companies in hawaii will also donate which i bet they will...

Are you really comparing a Caribbean cruise cost to a Hawaii cruise cost? There is absolutely no relevant basis for comparison, you are using a red herring. Period. Try comparing Alaska to Hawaii. That is a bit more realistic.

 

Its not just the PVSA, its the entire cost of doing business in Hawaii. Also, NCL does some pretty regular discounting, both in cruise fares, and supporting airfares, to keep their pax loads up.

[dockman]

2 hours ago, CruiserBruce said:

Are you really comparing a Caribbean cruise cost to a Hawaii cruise cost? There is absolutely no relevant basis for comparison, you are using a red herring. Period. Try comparing Alaska to Hawaii. That is a bit more realistic.

 

Its not just the PVSA, its the entire cost of doing business in Hawaii. Also, NCL does some pretty regular discounting, both in cruise fares, and supporting airfares, to keep their pax loads up.

as i said...yes i know the expenses in hawaii are higher....do you have the figures on POA revs and expenses?  I would love to see them...

 

and i do know a bit about doing biz in hawaii as have been here for 45++ years....

 

ok alaska??..i saw cruise after cruise in alaska this summer on princess and others some of them were around $499 ppdo for seven day cruises....i actually went on 21 days of alaska for little over $100 a day single room....right now there are alaska cruises avail in early sep for less than $500 a person?  Never ever saw an NCL hawaii cruise anywhere near that cheap,,if you can find one for me i will sign up today.

 

 

[dockman]

1 minute ago, dockman said:

as i said...yes i know the expenses in hawaii are higher....do you have the figures on POA revs and expenses?  I would love to see them...

 

and i do know a bit about doing biz in hawaii as have been here for 45++ years....

 

ok alaska??..i saw cruise after cruise in alaska this summer on princess and others some of them were around $499 ppdo for seven day cruises....i actually went on 21 days of alaska for little over $100 a day single room....right now there are alaska cruises avail in early sep for less than $500 a person?  Never ever saw an NCL hawaii cruise anywhere near that cheap,,if you can find one for me i will sign up today.

 

 

just looked...lots of sep princess alaska cruise right now for $359 ppdo...

[dockman]

1 minute ago, dockman said:

just looked...lots of sep princess alaska cruise right now for $359 ppdo...

and the lowest 7 day hawaii on POA NCL princess in sept oct?  $1200-$1400 ppdo....inside room plus port

[DCwom]

8 hours ago, dockman said:

ok alaska??..i saw cruise after cruise in alaska this summer on princess and others some of them were around $499 ppdo for seven day cruises....

If you take a look at the itineraries for Alaska cruises out of the US, they always make a port stop in Canada, same for mainland to Hawaii cruises, a pit stop in Canada. This breaks the closed loop circuit restriction and allows lots of US work rules to be bypassed, hence making for cheaper fares. Same thing for the new England cruises out of NYC & Boston, a stop in Canada.

[princeton123211]

9 hours ago, dockman said:

as i said...yes i know the expenses in hawaii are higher....do you have the figures on POA revs and expenses?  I would love to see them...

 

and i do know a bit about doing biz in hawaii as have been here for 45++ years....

Pride of America's biggest issue is its labor costs having to employ an all American crew to satisfy the laws that allow it to cruise intra Hawaii. This is unique to this ship and the wages they need to pay are not in line with that a modern cruise ship can operate around. POA is notoriously understaffed because they can't attract US crew members at the wages they want to pay. 

 

The ships going to Alaska and Hawaii from the mainland, either from Canada or from the US with stops in Canada or Mexico, can employ an International crew at a much, much lower cost. Hence the far lower rates. 

[dockman]

3 hours ago, princeton123211 said:

Pride of America's biggest issue is its labor costs having to employ an all American crew to satisfy the laws that allow it to cruise intra Hawaii. This is unique to this ship and the wages they need to pay are not in line with that a modern cruise ship can operate around. POA is notoriously understaffed because they can't attract US crew members at the wages they want to pay. 

 

The ships going to Alaska and Hawaii from the mainland, either from Canada or from the US with stops in Canada or Mexico, can employ an International crew at a much, much lower cost. Hence the far lower rates. 

Yes....the american crew part has been a major headache since day 1 for NCL hawaii...it is both the wages and benefits that they must provide...and according to many reports  a lot of the american crew just does not and will not work as hard as the international crews who may have much fewer job options than an american so lot of turnover....NCL received a waiver as the POA was not really built in USA shipyard and essentially has a monopoly on the 7 day hawaii cruise market...

[dockman]

4 hours ago, DCwom said:

If you take a look at the itineraries for Alaska cruises out of the US, they always make a port stop in Canada, same for mainland to Hawaii cruises, a pit stop in Canada. This breaks the closed loop circuit restriction and allows lots of US work rules to be bypassed, hence making for cheaper fares. Same thing for the new England cruises out of NYC & Boston, a stop in Canada.

yes all tied into the PSA requirements

[CruiserBruce]

41 minutes ago, dockman said:

yes all tied into the PSA requirements

PVSA.

[dockman]

16 minutes ago, CruiserBruce said:

PVSA.

Yes it is.

[dockman]

HNL elks lodge re Maui.   Members have patiently waited to hear from me about what the Honolulu Elks Lodge will do to help Maui’s people.  The Board of Directors met last night and with well attended members at-large there, the board decided on several items.  The board vetted the various helpful organizations providing services to Maui’s people in need.   The board decided that the Hawaii Community Foundation “Maui Strong Fund” would be the organization to assist monetarily (give money, not in-kind donations).  The website is:  https://www.hawaiicommunityfoundation.org/   There were two motions approved which will now be decided upon at the Lodge meeting on August 22nd, 6:30pm.  The first motion is for the lodge to donate $25,000 to the Maui Strong Fund.  The second motion is for the Honolulu Elks Lodge to match monetary donations up to a total amount of $500,000, made by Elks lodges, members, families or friends, to the Hawaii Community Foundation's Maui Strong Fund, through the end of this fiscal year.  Again, these are board motions – the lodge (members) will decide “yes” or “no” on them at the August 22nd meeting.   Mahalo for your concern. Live Aloha and with Mālama to all.

[chengkp75]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:48 PM, dockman said:

NCL received a waiver as the POA was not really built in USA shipyard and essentially has a monopoly on the 7 day hawaii cruise market...

While it is true that the POA's "US built" clause was waived by Congress, there is some debate as to whether or not she actually meets the "US built" clause without the waiver.  I have worked on several ships that had the hulls built in the US, and everything else, from the machinery to the piping, to the engines, were built overseas, and the ships still qualified for the Jones Act as "US built".  Since POA's hull was built in the US, there is some question as to the percentage of the build that is US and what is foreign.

 

And, while many folks trot out the line from NCL's quarterly statements that "POA is the highest revenue earner in the fleet", note that they say "revenue", not profit.  The US flag ships have never been exceedingly profitable, and in many years they lost money.  In the last year that NCL operated 3 ships in Hawaii, they lost $179 million, just on the Hawaii operation.

 

US crew costs are about 5 times what the international crew get (when benefits are added in), and everything for the cruise, from food to alcohol to fuel has to be shipped from the mainland, unlike the foreign flag ships which provision and fuel on the West Coast.  That shipping cost adds considerably to the operating cost of POA.

[dockman]

5 hours ago, chengkp75 said:

While it is true that the POA's "US built" clause was waived by Congress, there is some debate as to whether or not she actually meets the "US built" clause without the waiver.  I have worked on several ships that had the hulls built in the US, and everything else, from the machinery to the piping, to the engines, were built overseas, and the ships still qualified for the Jones Act as "US built".  Since POA's hull was built in the US, there is some question as to the percentage of the build that is US and what is foreign.

 

And, while many folks trot out the line from NCL's quarterly statements that "POA is the highest revenue earner in the fleet", note that they say "revenue", not profit.  The US flag ships have never been exceedingly profitable, and in many years they lost money.  In the last year that NCL operated 3 ships in Hawaii, they lost $179 million, just on the Hawaii operation.

 

US crew costs are about 5 times what the international crew get (when benefits are added in), and everything for the cruise, from food to alcohol to fuel has to be shipped from the mainland, unlike the foreign flag ships which provision and fuel on the West Coast.  That shipping cost adds considerably to the operating cost of POA.

if they are not profitable then they can pull out of the hawaii market i suppose?  with crew costs 5 times an international crew maybe it was never ever a good idea to begin with..

[chengkp75]

12 minutes ago, dockman said:

if they are not profitable then they can pull out of the hawaii market i suppose?  with crew costs 5 times an international crew maybe it was never ever a good idea to begin with..

Sure, they can, but POA could never do any other domestic US routes, it would have to be the same as the international ships, and they would of course flag out.  But, while they have a monopoly, they wil keep it.  NCL originally wanted into the Hawaii market when Genting owned them, and KT Lim wanted to invest in Hawaii.  After the uproar over the Japanese "buying out" Hawaii, he wanted to show that it was a US company doing the investing.  He wanted to buy bus and helicopter tours, golf courses and the like.  It never worked out.  Frankly, they expanded their capacity in Hawaii too quickly, they never really marketed the ships properly (showcasing Hawaii over the ship), or the golf packages (each ship had a pro shop onboard), and the other cruise lines flooded the market with cheaper 12-14 day cruises from the West Coast, which drove the Hawaii only cabin prices down below profitability.  That's when they started taking ships back out of US flag.

[dockman]

As said if NCL doesn't like the deal that they made they should pull out....they obviously did not do a good job of researching the operating costs in Hawaii. 

 

Maybe then Hawaii might take a good hard look at why the NCL model did not work and reconsider the entire cruise situation in the islands.  Hawaii could and should be a major cruise destination but it obviously does not work the way it is currently structured

[chengkp75]

8 minutes ago, dockman said:

As said if NCL doesn't like the deal that they made they should pull out....they obviously did not do a good job of researching the operating costs in Hawaii. 

 

Maybe then Hawaii might take a good hard look at why the NCL model did not work and reconsider the entire cruise situation in the islands.  Hawaii could and should be a major cruise destination but it obviously does not work the way it is currently structured

Well, short of eliminating the PVSA, the NCL model is the only one that would be allowed, whether Hawaii wants to change things or not.  The only other model would be the one NCL used to do, with a call at Fanning Island in KIribati, 700 miles south of the Big Island.  And, Fanning is nothing but a big barbeque at the end of a day and a half at sea.

 

Never said NCL didn't like the deal, just saying that yes, as you say, they are struggling to make things work well.  When they hired me, the head of HR told me flat out that they had no clue about dealing with US unionized maritime labor.  Lots of us in the first hires for NCL America tried to educate them, but there were forces in NCL corporate that wanted the Hawaii operation to fail, and they nearly accomplished that.

[dockman]

7 minutes ago, chengkp75 said:

Well, short of eliminating the PVSA, the NCL model is the only one that would be allowed, whether Hawaii wants to change things or not.  The only other model would be the one NCL used to do, with a call at Fanning Island in KIribati, 700 miles south of the Big Island.  And, Fanning is nothing but a big barbeque at the end of a day and a half at sea.

 

Never said NCL didn't like the deal, just saying that yes, as you say, they are struggling to make things work well.  When they hired me, the head of HR told me flat out that they had no clue about dealing with US unionized maritime labor.  Lots of us in the first hires for NCL America tried to educate them, but there were forces in NCL corporate that wanted the Hawaii operation to fail, and they nearly accomplished that.

Yes i was around in the travel biz in Hawaii when it all happened....it appeared to many that Inouye was  determined to push the deal for a variety of reasons some of which made no sense at all other than for his PR people to say look at what Inouye is doing for hawaii workers.... in the end he was  a very powerful force and got what he wanted....and NCL seemed very happy to have gotten what they thought was a monopoly that would be a gold mine...so now here we are with one ship that charges several times the price of non usa staffed ship and yet they apparntley  are challenged to make a profit....to most rational people that might be a good indication that the business model is not very viable especially as hawaii hotel and land vacation rates continue to soar and yet this floating "hotel" struggles....personally i would like to see a carve out to allow a work around of the PVSA and open the Hawaii market up to cruise competiton but there are many powerful people and lobbyists who do not want that to happen.

[JRG]

6 minutes ago, dockman said:

personally i would like to see a carve out to allow a work around of the PVSA and open the Hawaii market up to cruise competiton but there are many powerful people and lobbyists who do not want that to happen.

 

Your sentiment is reflected by thousands of cruisers in the world. 

 

Markets Get What They Want, eventually.

 

(Just slice a very small amount off for the cruisers and leave the rest of the

 the cabotage stuff to function as it is)

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by JRG

[JRG]

13 minutes ago, dockman said:

Yes i was around in the travel biz in Hawaii when it all happened....it appeared to many that Inouye was  determined to push the deal for a variety of reasons some of which made no sense at all other than for his PR people to say look at what Inouye is doing for hawaii workers.... in the end he was  a very powerful force and got what he wanted....and NCL seemed very happy to have gotten what they thought was a monopoly that would be a gold mine...so now here we are with one ship that charges several times the price of non usa staffed ship and yet they apparntley  are challenged to make a profit....to most rational people that might be a good indication that the business model is not very viable especially as hawaii hotel and land vacation rates continue to soar and yet this floating "hotel" struggles..

 

And the same thing happened in 1998 when the House Sub-Committee on Marine Transportation  met ( and the Administrations mysteriously did not attend) and in the transcripts you can read the pros and cons,  reflected in the language that you would expect and they discussed modifying the PVSA, mostly for purposes of jumpstarting the shipbuilding industry,  The panel was made up of some professionals for opposed change and some professionals who were Advocating Change,  like retired US Coast Guard Admiral Kime,  who was trying to get it changed for the above aforementioned reason.

 

Long story short, it looks like the House passed the Bill and it crashed and burned in the Senate.

I suspect that the political orientation of the Senate knew that the bill would veto'd at the highest level.

 

Damn the Torpedoes.  

 

 

[JRG]

1 hour ago, dockman said:

Maybe then Hawaii might take a good hard look at why the NCL model did not work and reconsider the entire cruise situation in the islands.  Hawaii could and should be a major cruise destination but it obviously does not work the way it is currently structured

 

My saddest hypothesis should persuade not just your local Hawaii Gov't but also our Federal Gov't 

to jointly LOBBY for change to the PVSA to allow free market economics to exist in Hawaiian and Alaska and US Mainland Coastal Cruising.

 

My compelling reason to support my hyposthesis is this....

 

If a free market existed for Coastal Cruisng in Hawaii,  then theoretically there could have been

maybe 10 to 15 cruiseships in and around the islands... some of which would have been available IMMEDIATELY to do this:

 

Convert the LIfeboats into QRT Rescue teams to Save our Hawaiian Citizens and US Tourists.

The crews are trained to do this.  each ships carries enough capacity to support the respective passenger load.

 

How Many Lives Could We have Saved????  It is not just about Markets.

 

Why Are We So Stupid in not recognizing that our laws need to be changed with the values of the place and time.  Thomas Jefferson told this to us in the Constitution.

 

Email your Congresspeople.

 

 

Edited August 21, 2023 by JRG