Premium Economy Unavailable

[LostFan#1]

I know this is the ocean forum, but we are taking the Duoro River cruise in September. And my question concerns air availability.

 

I have called Viking twice now, hoping to receive a different answer, but both times, I've been told premium economy is unavailable on that itinerary (maybe just our sail date, I don't know). Only economy or business. Is that common (this is only our 4th Viking booking)? The rep today said I could book economy, and when it's ticketed, try to upgrade to premium economy. I don't want to risk that. 

 

I'm not opposed to booking our own airfare. Rather. I'm curious whether this is a common occurrence. Our first Viking river, we flew economy. Second one, business. Third one, premium economy. All with Viking Air. 

 

Thanks for shedding any light.

[FlyerTalker]

Since you don't mention airlines or routings, it is tough to give specific information.  My initial thought is that the airline may not even be providing a "premium economy" product for that flight.

 

Know that PE is an amorphous term outside the industry, bandied about by many, especially for products that really aren't such a thing.  PE is not an "extra legroom" seat, such as what gets marketed as "Comfort +", "Main Cabin Extra" and the like.

 

Also, PE is not present on all intercontinental air routes or carriers.

 

 

[auntieS]

I think “regular/included “ Viking Air only has so many seats with their contracted airlines (seems to mostly be Star Alliance?) in each available cabin class. 
If you bought Viking Air Plus ( now $100 pp) then you can work with the Viking Air rep to book “any” airline routing you would like (or the rep has access to “all “ available airline routings). If not with their contracted airlines, then you pay “market “ rate or maybe a small discount, but you get the protections and benefits of Viking Air (if flight delays and airport transfers, respectively). Air Plus is a bit of roll of the dice cause you might have gotten the same routing from “free” Air but don’t know until you’re ticketed. Air Plus does let you purchase your air quite a bit earlier than you would know if waiting for regular Air. Finally only the transoceanic leg is “guaranteed “ in your purchased cabin class. Domestic could be in economy (even if premium available domestically and you purchased business for international flight. Don’t assume the rep is correct if they say you’ll be in PE for the domestic leg! Once booked, you can check on the airlines own website). Or do your own air, especially if you build in extra day/ time before/after your cruise. Bon Voyage!

[pavementends]

See if premium economy is actually available. If it is book it yourself.

 

You should go early a few days anyway, because Portugal rocks.

[LostFan#1]

Thank you, everyone! I have Air Plus on an upcoming trip, so I spoke to the A.P. rep and asked about premium economy on the flight from Raleigh/Durham to Madrid (pre-extension for the Duoro River cruise) and Porto, Portugal, back to RDU. She also said no PE was available. I can, indeed, book PE seats on an American Airlines flight on that routing. American does mention that PE is guaranteed fonly or the transatlantic portion. Booking that flight looks like that's what I'll be doing, instead of hoping Viking might open some PE seats. 

 

Thanks again for everyone's input.

[Baron Barracuda]

Be careful.  We booked PE through Viking Air for a cruise out of LA last year.  A few months before sailing checked UAL web site and discovered they had changed planes and new one didn't offer PE. Without notifying us they moved us to middle seats in regular economy all the way in the rear of the plane.  Switched to another flight and later same thing happened. Gave up and upgraded to business class knowing that's offered on every plane.

[Cienfuegos]

Interesting thread.  This confirms my thoughts about Viking Ocean buying wholesale blocks of seats, which may not include business or higher priced coach seats, etc.  I'm sure United, etc, is very aware of the markups they can harvest on Premium Economy / Comfort Plus or their other labels. Why give it away to Viking?

 

 

[OneSixtyToOne]

1 hour ago, Cienfuegos said:

Interesting thread.  This confirms my thoughts about Viking Ocean buying wholesale blocks of seats, which may not include business or higher priced coach seats, etc.  I'm sure United, etc, is very aware of the markups they can harvest on Premium Economy / Comfort Plus or their other labels. Why give it away to Viking?

 

 

Here is a link to an interesting video about how airlines really make their money.

 

[millybess]

34 minutes ago, OneSixtyToOne said:

Here is a link to an interesting video about how airlines really make their money.

 

VERY interesting video. I was interested in the idea of first class being replaced by business class and his insights that economy is just there to fill up the plane.  Thanks for posting this!

[Breckski]

 

On 1/7/2024 at 9:32 AM, Baron Barracuda said:

Be careful.  We booked PE through Viking Air for a cruise out of LA last year.  A few months before sailing checked UAL web site and discovered they had changed planes and new one didn't offer PE. Without notifying us they moved us to middle seats in regular economy all the way in the rear of the plane.  Switched to another flight and later same thing happened. Gave up and upgraded to business class knowing that's offered on every plane.

 

We'd never book a flight in PE for fear of this happening.  And on a simple east coast to Europe flight, I certainly would entertain such a seat category if I were more confident the airlines wouldn't switch the flight to a non-PE equipped aircraft.

[FlyerTalker]

On 1/7/2024 at 9:32 AM, Baron Barracuda said:

Be careful.  We booked PE through Viking Air for a cruise out of LA last year.  A few months before sailing checked UAL web site and discovered they had changed planes and new one didn't offer PE. Without notifying us they moved us to middle seats in regular economy all the way in the rear of the plane.  Switched to another flight and later same thing happened. Gave up and upgraded to business class knowing that's offered on every plane.

 

There are only a few routes where PE is offered for USA domestic flights.  PE is primarily an international product, and is only occasionally offered on transcons -- usually when they are rotating international equipment into domestic routings.

 

I would never be expecting to find PE on a domestic itinerary, and neither should anyone else.

 

 

41 minutes ago, mwike said:

We'd never book a flight in PE for fear of this happening.  And on a simple east coast to Europe flight, I certainly would entertain such a seat category if I were more confident the airlines wouldn't switch the flight to a non-PE equipped aircraft.

 

Big difference between international and domestic equipment.  If you are booking a flight where PE is offered internationally, I would have little concern that there would be a change to a non-PE aircraft.

 

IMO, you worry too much about a very small possibility.

 

 

[Ecnarps]

Maybe a little off topic but for myself, after seven cruises using them, I am done using Viking Air Plus.  For the most part, the agents are relatively knowledgeable but (IMHO) are frequently heavily accented and a bit difficult to thoroughly understand.  However, the biggest real problem I had was trying to nail down decent flight itineraries.  Although I initially booked for Premium Economy, the agents I spoke with (numerous long frustrating calls involved) were unable to find seats in that class without very significant additional cost or untenable connection times.  I subsequently downgraded to regular Economy thinking that the air booking process would be easier.  Wrong! Same story...every one of my desired flight reservation options were either not on one of Viking's contracts or just as before, involved significant additional cost... as much as $820 per person in one case...for a regular economy seat!   Believe me, I wasn't looking at exotic flight options.  The advice I was given was to call back in a few weeks to see if anything changed.  I did this three times over a two month period.  In the end I gave up and simply settled for what Viking was going to give me anyway... the $150 per person Air Plus fees I paid --  for not only my booking but for two other associated bookings (for my adult kids/spouses) was a HUGE waste of hard earned money.  Sorry to sound like sour grapes (because once I get on their ships all is well) but I'm going to do my own flight booking from now on.  It may cost me a few extra bucks but I'll be in control and I will have avoided significant frustration and wasted time hanging on the phone. ..worth it to me. Just my personal experience. Just my personal opinion.  But I know there are others out there with similar stories. Peace.

[FlyerTalker]

1 hour ago, Ecnarps said:

every one of my desired flight reservation options were either not on one of Viking's contracts or just as before, involved significant additional cost... as much as $820 per person in one case...for a regular economy seat!  

 

You summed it up.  If you want something that is not a part of the contracted inventory, you are now having Viking buy the ticket on the spot market.

[Cienfuegos]

Good information, thank you.

 

I'm increasingly intrigued by the range of ticket prices based on days of the week, and seasons of the year.

 

Here in south Florida,  Royal Air Maroc, TAP, and Turkish Air seem to be the price leaders to Europe and North Africa / Morocco. 

[FlyerTalker]

6 minutes ago, Cienfuegos said:

I'm increasingly intrigued by the range of ticket prices based on days of the week, and seasons of the year.

 

Not really that surprising if you keep in mind two salient facts:

 

1) Airline seat inventory is a finite, time-defined commodity where each flight is a separate and distinct "product".

2) Supply and demand rule.

 

The first can be best understood by comparing to cereal boxes.  Kellogg makes hundreds of million boxes of Rice Krispies.  But they are fungible and interchangeable.  Contrast with American Airlines.  They have over 260 billion available seat miles for sale each year.  But that is divided into over 2.4 million individual flights.  And each of those flights is a separate and unique product.

 

Now add that to the concept of supply and demand.  Depending on the city-pair market, different days of the week will have different degrees of demand.  Business markets from New York have higher demand on Mondays, Thursdays and Fridays, less on Tuesday and Wednesday.  Leisure markets to/from Florida have higher demand on Saturdays and Sundays, corresponding with vacation travel.  Same with time of day, where some flights are more "desirable" than others.  And the same with season of the year.  Demand to Scandinavia drops in the winter.  Similarly with Alaska, and other locations.

 

28 minutes ago, Cienfuegos said:

Here in south Florida,  Royal Air Maroc, TAP, and Turkish Air seem to be the price leaders to Europe and North Africa / Morocco. 

 

All three airlines face the issue of being small players in the USA market.  They are willing to take smaller margins on their flights to generate traffic.  Also, aside from Casablanca, Lisbon and Istanbul, their routings from the USA involve connections, which reduces their desirability for many travelers.

 

Interestingly, all three offer attractive free stopover programs, where you can break your trip and spend time in their hub cities at no additional airfare cost.  Another incentive, along with pricing, to stimulate demand.  (See S&D above)

 

What does this all mean?  If one can be flexible in their travel arrangements, it will often be beneficial for your bottom line.

 

 

[Cienfuegos]

10 minutes ago, FlyerTalker said:

What does this all mean?  If one can be flexible in their travel arrangements, it will often be beneficial for your bottom line.

 

 

Yes.  Adding a few days on the front or back of a trip may offer significant price reductions on the air part.

 

And, a day or two in Istanbul, Lisbon. Zurich, Casablanca isn't the worst thing in the world...

[formernuke]

14 hours ago, Ecnarps said:

Maybe a little off topic but for myself, after seven cruises using them, I am done using Viking Air Plus.  For the most part, the agents are relatively knowledgeable but (IMHO) are frequently heavily accented and a bit difficult to thoroughly understand.  However, the biggest real problem I had was trying to nail down decent flight itineraries.  Although I initially booked for Premium Economy, the agents I spoke with (numerous long frustrating calls involved) were unable to find seats in that class without very significant additional cost or untenable connection times.  I subsequently downgraded to regular Economy thinking that the air booking process would be easier.  Wrong! Same story...every one of my desired flight reservation options were either not on one of Viking's contracts or just as before, involved significant additional cost... as much as $820 per person in one case...for a regular economy seat!   Believe me, I wasn't looking at exotic flight options.  The advice I was given was to call back in a few weeks to see if anything changed.  I did this three times over a two month period.  In the end I gave up and simply settled for what Viking was going to give me anyway... the $150 per person Air Plus fees I paid --  for not only my booking but for two other associated bookings (for my adult kids/spouses) was a HUGE waste of hard earned money.  Sorry to sound like sour grapes (because once I get on their ships all is well) but I'm going to do my own flight booking from now on.  It may cost me a few extra bucks but I'll be in control and I will have avoided significant frustration and wasted time hanging on the phone. ..worth it to me. Just my personal experience. Just my personal opinion.  But I know there are others out there with similar stories. Peace.

I think the experience with Viking air changes drastically if you are close to their 'hub' cities and don't need business class.. We've flown from SFO several times using Viking air and never had a problem getting reasonable itineraries from the start. For example, for our cruise coming up in April, the flight they automatically assigned us was OK except it was for an airline I really don't like to fly. So from their website air, we were able to pick a different flight/airline that suited us, and chose to upgrade to premium economy (something we usually don't do) because the upgrade price was pretty reasonable. Did all this through their web interface without talking to anyone in 5 minutes.

[oskidunker]

I tried  premium economy both on United and Lufthansa. Not worth the extra money, in my opinion. You cant sleep. Go business or coach. 

Edited January 9 by oskidunker

[photopro2]

13 hours ago, oskidunker said:

Not worth the extra money, in my opinion. You cant sleep. Go business or coach. 

I was thinking the exact same thing as I read through the thread! My view is that PE is a considerable extra cost for a marginally improved experience.

We find daytime flights, even the longer ones, quite acceptable in coach. Night flights are another matter altogether and that is when we look to get business seats. 

So, for TA flights, eastbound is usually a night flight in business and westbound usually a daytime flight in coach. 

The total cost is a little more than a PE return but we feel that getting a lie flat seat for the night sector is a huge benefit.

 

 

[OneSixtyToOne]

8 hours ago, photopro2 said:

I was thinking the exact same thing as I read through the thread! My view is that PE is a considerable extra cost for a marginally improved experience.

We find daytime flights, even the longer ones, quite acceptable in coach. Night flights are another matter altogether and that is when we look to get business seats. 

So, for TA flights, eastbound is usually a night flight in business and westbound usually a daytime flight in coach. 

The total cost is a little more than a PE return but we feel that getting a lie flat seat for the night sector is a huge benefit.

 

 

In my experience, PE has no middle seat. That alone makes it worth it.

[ericosmith]

11 hours ago, OneSixtyToOne said:

In my experience, PE has no middle seat. That alone makes it worth it.

Particularly if you can't sleep on planes which makes the more expensive lie flat seats useless.  

[duquephart]

3 hours ago, ericosmith said:

Particularly if you can't sleep on planes which makes the more expensive lie flat seats useless.  

 

Indeed. Coach too cramped - business waaaaaaaaay too spendy.

[photopro2]

20 hours ago, OneSixtyToOne said:

In my experience, PE has no middle seat. That alone makes it worth it.

I completely agree with you in that, I would not fly long-distance in a middle seat!  

 

Fortunately, we have always been able to fly transatlantic in seat pairs, even in coach. It used to be easy back in the days of the 767 and before the densification of the 777s, but it is still possible even now.

 

Many airlines, BA and AA include, have their 777 cabins configured with seat pairs at the rear of the cabin. The World Traveler section on upper deck of the BA A380s is currently 2-4-2, so there is no middle seat as such. (though that is likely going to change and become a 100% business class area in the next 12 to 18 months) The A330s of Aer Lingus, Virgin and other airlines have a seat pairs the full length of each side of the coach cabin.

 

DW and I have been very comfortable in seat pairs on all our many daytime transatlantic flights. As I mentioned in my original post though, night flights are a very different matter. We have now reached a level of seniority when we really wouldn't want to be sitting up all night in either coach or PE, which is where business class is a wonderful solution!

 

 

[Mike07]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:23 PM, OneSixtyToOne said:

Here is a link to an interesting video about how airlines really make their money.

 

 

 

This should be required watching for all readers here that desire anything more than an Economy seat.

[Mike07]

On 1/5/2024 at 9:17 AM, LostFan#1 said:

Thank you, everyone! I have Air Plus on an upcoming trip, so I spoke to the A.P. rep and asked about premium economy on the flight from Raleigh/Durham to Madrid (pre-extension for the Duoro River cruise) and Porto, Portugal, back to RDU. She also said no PE was available. I can, indeed, book PE seats on an American Airlines flight on that routing. American does mention that PE is guaranteed fonly or the transatlantic portion. Booking that flight looks like that's what I'll be doing, instead of hoping Viking might open some PE seats. 

 

Thanks again for everyone's input.

 

 

You'll probably be able to grab a premium (or higher) seat up until a week before the flight. But, it's also one of those things where these seats are where airlines make the most money, so you're up against people that are willing to pay out of pocket, are going on other cruises (some better others worse than Viking), and those willing to upgrade their tickets from economy.