Accessible Cabins

[Peter Lanky]

2 hours ago, Megabear2 said:

This seems to be saying that your point is not about availability of accessible cabins but the width of the door, ie the entrance to the cabin for wheelchairs. 

Most of the time the two go together, along with a similarly wide bathroom door. However there are many disabled people who could benefit from an adapted bathroom, because that is the only difference other than the door size, but don't require the wide door. Any bathroom could be converted to aid the walking disabled, and as I said, P&O states that there are some rooms that fit this description, or could do if fitted with some grab rails, shower seat and emergency cord.

 

Much the same applies to disabled toilets anywhere, and I've lost count of the number of times I've sat outside a disabled toilet in severe discomfort, only to see the occupant come trotting out with that smug 'You can't challenge me' look on their face. Accessibility and disability are definitely two different things.

[terrierjohn]

On 3/28/2024 at 8:30 PM, Peter Lanky said:

It depends on what maritime law describes as disabled. Do they differentiate between 'disabled' and 'inconvenienced' for instance? I have no idea what this percentage is, and I suspect finding the answer would not be easy. Also anti-discrimination regulations should trump any supply and demand issues if everything is done in the same manner as I have had drummed into me on countless training courses during my career. Giving fair treatment to genuine disabled should not be subject to supply and demand as I see it. If not, everything I have been taught (before becoming suddenly disabled) was all in vain.

As the husband of a severely disabled wheelchair user, I would not be happy to see anti discrimination legislation trump safety issues when it comes to cruising or flying.

On our recent cruise in addition to accessible cabin users, there were many hundreds of passengers who it seemed would have required significant help,  in an emergency, to use stairs or to board any survival craft other than the large lifeboats. It is becoming increasingly concerning to me that if we were ever involved in an ultimate emergency, we would struggle to survive.

 

[indiana123]

Probably already said... there must be safety rules.  No way are such rules discriminatory. 

 

I am quite newly disabled.

[Megabear2]

13 hours ago, terrierjohn said:

As the husband of a severely disabled wheelchair user, I would not be happy to see anti discrimination legislation trump safety issues when it comes to cruising or flying.

On our recent cruise in addition to accessible cabin users, there were many hundreds of passengers who it seemed would have required significant help,  in an emergency, to use stairs or to board any survival craft other than the large lifeboats. It is becoming increasingly concerning to me that if we were ever involved in an ultimate emergency, we would struggle to survive.

 

Both P&O and Cunard have indicated to me in the past week that one to one assistance is now their default position for those using walking sticks onboard.  As a result for the three cruises I booked last week my cruise planner shows mandatory completion of the medical questionnaire for my husband.  Cunard has gone one step further and has already replied to say form acknowledged and tender/lifeboat test must be completed on boarding.  I fully expect the same from P&O.  Both companies stated they will be limiting the number of passengers with what they termed "walking aids".  

 

It could perhaps be that others are thinking along the same lines as you.

[S1971]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:54 AM, Peter Lanky said:

Most of the time the two go together, along with a similarly wide bathroom door. However there are many disabled people who could benefit from an adapted bathroom, because that is the only difference other than the door size, but don't require the wide door. Any bathroom could be converted to aid the walking disabled, and as I said, P&O states that there are some rooms that fit this description, or could do if fitted with some grab rails, shower seat and emergency cord.

 

Much the same applies to disabled toilets anywhere, and I've lost count of the number of times I've sat outside a disabled toilet in severe discomfort, only to see the occupant come trotting out with that smug 'You can't challenge me' look on their face. Accessibility and disability are definitely two different things.

 

Other than cruiselines requesting a full medical history from ones registered GP, I can't see anyway they can fully regulate adapted cabins for those in most need and in all honesty it would be discriminatory to do so.

 

As has already been said, if you want the cabin if your choice book it as soon as reasonably possible, the problem then goes away.

 

You simply can't expect to get a cabin at your leisure, it's no different for me, if I want a cabin of my choice I ensure that by booking early.

 

 

[Peter Lanky]

49 minutes ago, S1971 said:

 

Other than cruiselines requesting a full medical history from ones registered GP, I can't see anyway they can fully regulate adapted cabins for those in most need and in all honesty it would be discriminatory to do so.

 

As has already been said, if you want the cabin if your choice book it as soon as reasonably possible, the problem then goes away.

 

You simply can't expect to get a cabin at your leisure, it's no different for me, if I want a cabin of my choice I ensure that by booking early.

 

 

They could simply ask on a declaration form 'Do you need the wider doors of an accessible cabin in order to enter/exit the cabin/bathroom, and get people to sign up to it. If they lie on the declaration, there would be consequences which the cruise line would have to decide, but at least it would deter most who are just trying to get a larger cabin. Only a dedicated few would bring their own wheelchair simply to qualify.

[S1971]

8 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

They could simply ask on a declaration form 'Do you need the wider doors of an accessible cabin in order to enter/exit the cabin/bathroom, and get people to sign up to it. If they lie on the declaration, there would be consequences which the cruise line would have to decide, but at least it would deter most who are just trying to get a larger cabin. Only a dedicated few would bring their own wheelchair simply to qualify.

 

So being a larger person with not an instantly recognisable underlying health condition.

 

I don't necessarily need wider doors as I am mobile, but I would need a bigger shower area and seating facilities given normal toilet and showers on cruiselines are smaller than average.

 

Does a wheelchair user need the cabin more than me, and if so how would P&O manage that without discriminating?

 

 

[Selbourne]

24 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

They could simply ask on a declaration form 'Do you need the wider doors of an accessible cabin in order to enter/exit the cabin/bathroom, and get people to sign up to it. If they lie on the declaration, there would be consequences which the cruise line would have to decide, but at least it would deter most who are just trying to get a larger cabin. Only a dedicated few would bring their own wheelchair simply to qualify.

Peter - people who are not disabled might answer yes to your suggested question! With respect, what you are concerned about (those who don’t have a genuine need for an accessible cabin getting one) is already covered in P&Os booking conditions. When we book an accessible cabin it is made clear that anyone booking one who does not have a genuine need for one is liable to have their booking cancelled with no refund. Our P&O insider has also confirmed that P&O has clamped down on this. I wonder if you are worrying about a problem that no longer exists? 

[Peter Lanky]

3 minutes ago, S1971 said:

 

So being a larger person with not an instantly recognisable underlying health condition.

 

I don't necessarily need wider doors as I am mobile, but I would need a bigger shower area and seating facilities given normal toilet and showers on cruiselines are smaller than average.

 

Does a wheelchair user need the cabin more than me, and if so how would P&O manage that without discriminating?

 

 

In the same way that I am attempting, both to raise awareness among people in general, and lobbying the cruise lines themselves, you could do the same and attempt to get more bathrooms with shower and toilet facilities more favourable for larger people. This would be a far simpler process than that required to make a cabin accessible.

 

The cruise industry needs to move forward, and the only way to do this is to highlight the different problems that people have in both using cabin facilities, and those in public areas. The people sat pushing buttons sat at desks in HQ have no comprehension of any of these issues unless somebody tells them.

 

Regarding your last sentence, you would be able to use a standard cabin, albeit with some discomfort. A wheelchair user would not be able to go on the cruise.

[Peter Lanky]

5 minutes ago, Selbourne said:

I wonder if you are worrying about a problem that no longer exists? 

You may well be right there, which goes back to why I asked the question in the first place. I am effectively looking for reassurance from people more experienced in cruising than I am that they have seen for themselves that accessible accommodation is not being abused.

[david63]

8 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

The people sat pushing buttons sat at desks in HQ have no comprehension of any of these issues unless somebody tells them.

They probably do but there are two factors that come to mind.

 

1. The "bean counters" will have a say and decide it is not a commercially viable option to change anything.

2. Ignoring the discrimination argument for the minute - passengers with accessibility needs are not P&O's current passenger demographic

[S1971]

11 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

Regarding your last sentence, you would be able to use a standard cabin, albeit with some discomfort. A wheelchair user would not be able to go on the cruise.

 

You are speculating and discriminating, my needs certainly wouldn't able me to use a standard cabin, but that's not up for discussion.

 

Sorry if this sounds harsh, but if you're not prepared to book early to secure an accessible cabin then unfortunately you will continue to be dissapointed.

 

 

[AchileLauro]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

In the same way that I am attempting, both to raise awareness among people in general, and lobbying the cruise lines themselves, you could do the same and attempt to get more bathrooms with shower and toilet facilities more favourable for larger people. This would be a far simpler process than that required to make a cabin accessible.

 

The cruise industry needs to move forward, and the only way to do this is to highlight the different problems that people have in both using cabin facilities, and those in public areas. The people sat pushing buttons sat at desks in HQ have no comprehension of any of these issues unless somebody tells them.

 

Regarding your last sentence, you would be able to use a standard cabin, albeit with some discomfort. A wheelchair user would not be able to go on the cruise.

 

When talking about "larger people" are you talking about clinically obese which is regarded as a disability, or are you simply talking about people who are simply larger in frame?

 

I have some experience of regulating safety and evacuation processes in land based premises including hospitals and other care environments, and while I am unfamiliar with maritime legislation I am of the opinion that with regard to vulnerable persons the safety legislation and requirements would be broadly inline with shore based legislation in most developed countries.

Cruise lines may not of got this very difficult subject entirely correct in the past but in light of events in fairly recent times are working hard to address issues.

 

Having recently been through the process when booking a cruise for my disabled mother-in-law I can say that I was impressed by the way that P&O dealt with it. I would say that they were endeavoring to develop a PEP (Personal Evacuation Plan). I appreciated that its especially difficult to carry out an assessment of disability needs remotely and to make a valid judgement as to what assistance would be required in an emergency.

 

As a slightly related aside, my wife and I were on a cruise on Oriana some years ago and would daily see a family of four moving around the ship. Three of the four were always seen in mobility scooters, often barging their way through other passengers.  We excused their bad manners because we were obviously sympathetic to the fact that a family should be so affected as to necessitate the need for these scooters.

That was until a sail away party when the three in scooters got up to dance. Two of them standing on tables and one standing on a chair. They were quite rowdy and my wife and I looked at each other in disbelief. We weren't quite so sympathetic after that.

[Peter Lanky]

14 minutes ago, AchileLauro said:

 

When talking about "larger people" are you talking about clinically obese which is regarded as a disability, or are you simply talking about people who are simply larger in frame?

I was merely responding to another statement with somebody describing themselves as being a 'larger person' with no further elaboration.

 

I did not see anything significantly different  in my adapted bathroom other than it having a walk in shower, grab rails and an emergency cord, plus the obvious wider door. I can't see how the facilities therein would have been any more benefit to a clinically obese person than anyone else. The toilet was no larger and no higher than any standard one. Everything in this bathroom could easily have been replicated in a standard cabin bathroom other than the wide door.

 

As an aside, the Japanese are way ahead of us with accessible toilets/bathrooms. The doors slide instead of being hinged and the toilets resemble Captain Kirk's chair, with buttons everywhere, as well as being significantly higher than a standard toilet.

Edited April 1 by Peter Lanky

[S1971]

6 minutes ago, AchileLauro said:

When talking about "larger people" are you talking about clinically obese which is regarded as a disability, or are you simply talking about people who are simply larger in frame?

 

Hi AchileLauro.

 

Me personally am not considered clinically obese, however I am considered a larger person with underlying medical conditions that render me disabled and eligible for an accessible cabin, I'm not quite sure Peter can grasp that because I'm mobile my need is somewhat lesser than his?

 

With regards to your last paragraph, that's absolutely deplorable behaviour.

 

Where I agree with Peter is that this still goes on, but as others have said they are now rightly cracking down the best they can.

 

[terrierjohn]

40 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

You may well be right there, which goes back to why I asked the question in the first place. I am effectively looking for reassurance from people more experienced in cruising than I am that they have seen for themselves that accessible accommodation is not being abused.

There are always likely to be able bodied passengers allocated to an accessible cabin, if one is available, especially on fly cruises. We dined with a couple last week on Iona who were in a deluxe accessible cabin, these are probably last minute cancellations, and the cruise had no wait list for accessible cabins, or they had no takers.

 

 

[terrierjohn]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

I was merely responding to another statement with somebody describing themselves as being a 'larger person' with no further elaboration.

 

I did not see anything significantly different  in my adapted bathroom other than it having a walk in shower, grab rails and an emergency cord, plus the obvious wider door. I can't see how the facilities therein would have been any more benefit to a clinically obese person than anyone else. The toilet was no larger and no higher than any standard one. Everything in this bathroom could easily have been replicated in a standard cabin bathroom other than the wide door.

 

As an aside, the Japanese are way ahead of us with accessible toilets/bathrooms. The doors slide instead of being hinged and the toilets resemble Captain Kirk's chair, with buttons everywhere, as well as being significantly higher than a standard toilet.

I have never measured cruise ship toilet heights, but certainly our Iona accessible cabin toilet was definitely higher than ouir standard toilet at home.

 

Edited April 1 by terrierjohn

[Peter Lanky]

17 minutes ago, AchileLauro said:

That was until a sail away party when the three in scooters got up to dance. Two of them standing on tables and one standing on a chair. They were quite rowdy and my wife and I looked at each other in disbelief. We weren't quite so sympathetic after that.

This is similar to what I previously referred to as the Lourdes Effect on aircraft.

I encountered a woman in Johannesburg who was brazen enough to say that the had requested wheelchair assistance because her hand luggage was too heavy (and therein lies a whole new subject). Shen then demanded from random airport staff that she was thirsty, and needed somebody to bring a drink, and then later something to eat. Like 75% of the other passengers on this flight who had requested assistance, she left the aircraft immediately, not wanting (or needing) to wait for the assistance staff, after landing.

[Peter Lanky]

7 minutes ago, terrierjohn said:

There are always likely to be able bodied passengers allocated to an accessible cabin, if one is available, especially on fly cruises. We dined with a couple last week on Iona who were in a deluxe accessible cabin, these are probably last minute cancellations, and the cruise had no wait list for accessible cabins, or they had no takers.

 

 

That's fair enough as a last minute thing. It's when no cabins are available 12 months before sailing that it becomes annoying.

[terrierjohn]

1 minute ago, Peter Lanky said:

That's fair enough as a last minute thing. It's when no cabins are available 12 months before sailing that it becomes annoying.

I was highlighting that maybe seeing an AB passenger using an accessible cabin, might not be because they are cheating the system.  Because P&O do their best to ensure that only genuinely disabled passengers are allowed to book them. Although how rigorously they check the disability level of scooter users needing an accessible cabin is another matter.

[S1971]

9 minutes ago, Peter Lanky said:

That's fair enough as a last minute thing. It's when no cabins are available 12 months before sailing that it becomes annoying.

 

It does highlight the importance of booking early though Peter.

[AchileLauro]

1 hour ago, Peter Lanky said:

This is similar to what I previously referred to as the Lourdes Effect on aircraft.

I encountered a woman in Johannesburg who was brazen enough to say that the had requested wheelchair assistance because her hand luggage was too heavy (and therein lies a whole new subject). Shen then demanded from random airport staff that she was thirsty, and needed somebody to bring a drink, and then later something to eat. Like 75% of the other passengers on this flight who had requested assistance, she left the aircraft immediately, not wanting (or needing) to wait for the assistance staff, after landing.

Unfortunately the unreasonable entitled characteristic is not entirely restricted to fully able bodied persons it also extends to some disabled persons too. So does claiming discrimination when others are not in total agreement with them. That's simply human nature as unpleasant as it may be at times.

[Cpt Pugwash]

Sadly we live in the days where not just Cruising but in life in general people 'say' the right thing but 'do' what suits them best  some able bodied and not so.

For me personally i'm disabled but will still help others and it it upsets others because it doesn't suit them my answer is tough.

There is one saying that has done me good in life and that is 'A Person's Actions Not there Words will tell you everything You Need to know about them'.

Happy Cruising Able Bodied or Disabled.