Is this discrimination

[Megabear2]

18 minutes ago, S1971 said:

 

Unfortunately, I don't feel I miss the point.

 

Many identify themselves to be fraudulent as they make it blatantly obvious.

 

I certainly don't deliberately people watch either, It again comes down to the blatantly obvious in my opinion.

 

Airports in particular that I've been too always priority board those with disabilities first on homeward journey's, it should be opposite when disembarking, countless times I've seen those prioritised one end can miraculously get off the plane the other end totally unaided and be the first waiting for the doors to open, and be the first to the baggage claim.

 

The "point" is you have absolutely no right whatsoever lawfully to judge the people you refer to and this is the whole reason why those who have non visible disabilities get extremely upset when threads like this one go down that track.   I assume you are medically qualified if you are so certain they are fit and well.  Perhaps if you're so sure you should challenge them, or perhaps not ...

[S1971]

Obviously you weren't there so how are you able to make judgment, in the same way I am.

 

I saw it happening, no one is forced to accept it.

 

You seem to be taking it personally, which is not my intention.

Edited June 19 by S1971

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, S1971 said:

Obviously you weren't there so how are you able to make judgment, in the same way I am.

 

I saw it happening, no one is forced to accept it.

No I wasn't there but I live with a man who has a life threatening illness who is constantly judged by people who think they know all about his capabilities because they see him being active (very much a part of his care plan is to be active for as long as feasibly possible both for physical and mental health). It is hurtful and distressing to be judged in the way described on these boards, not just by you but many others.  

 

If I did see it I wouldn't have the audacity to comment on it because the fact is I would not know that person's circumstances.  What I can say with certainty is that the public, particularly in the UK just make assumptions and are extremely fond of putting their opinions on to open forums making anyone affected by non visible disability defensive and upset. 

[david63]

19 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

What I can say with certainty is that the public, particularly in the UK just make assumptions and are extremely fond of putting their opinions on to open forums making anyone affected by non visible disability defensive and upset. 

Not just on fora - sometimes to your face, especially if you try to use a disabled toilet!

 

In fact in many cases those with visible disabilities are more judgemental than others of those with hidden disabilities.

 

For the record I do have a hidden disability.

Edited June 19 by david63

[S1971]

11 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

What I can say with certainty is that the public, particularly in the UK just make assumptions and are extremely fond of putting their opinions on to open forums making anyone affected by non visible disability defensive and upset. 

 

Opinions are what open forums such as this are for, you are giving your opinion now.

 

What I have witnessed is not a figment of my imagination, it's happened in front of my own eyes and it has been blatantly obvious.

 

As I edited in my last post, you seem to be taking personally which is not my intention, I too have personal experience of disabilities and can empathise with your situation, but I accept there are those who manipulate the system.

[Megabear2]

7 minutes ago, S1971 said:

 

Opinions are what open forums such as this are for, you are giving your opinion now.

 

What I have witnessed is not a figment of my imagination, it's happened in front of my own eyes and it has been blatantly obvious.

 

As I edited in my last post, you seem to be taking personally which is not my intention, I too have personal experience of disabilities and can empathise with your situation, but I accept there are those who manipulate the system.

I've no problem with people having opinions.  I have a problem with every time someone mentions a non visible disability this abuse of priority boarding etc is trotted out by someone or other.  You unfortunately are just the latest in a long line and no I'm sure it isn't personal but as I said earlier it is extremely easy to be upset.  

 

My hackles rise when I read how sympathetic people are to non visible disability because if the posts over the years on this subject are anything to go by plus our own experience with lifts on cruise ships it's a very long way from the truth.

 

Of course there are people who think having assistance gets them priority and early boarding but it's not how it happens.  Our last cruise from Southampton we had 4.00pm boarding along with family members including an autistic child and an 83 year old in heart failure.  That lateness is probably a shock to the real frauds and why they rise up like Lazarus, but they are a minority and should be accepted as such rather than making the genuine feel uncomfortable. It's not nice to have to explain to a lift of strangers why you need to use it and rather than judging it should be accepted that everyone, able bodied, disabled or otherwise is perfectly within their right to do so.

 

 

[kalos]

7 minutes ago, Megabear2 said:

It's not nice to have to explain to a lift of strangers why you need to use it and rather than judging it should be accepted that everyone, able bodied, disabled or otherwise is perfectly within their right to do so.

 

Thanks Megabear ,saves a lot of us having to explain all the time 💗

[carlanthony24]

3 hours ago, S1971 said:

 

There are clearly many people with hidden disabilities and I would agree it can be hard at times to identify those.

 

But, I agree with Selbourne, I've seen on so many occasions people who are happy to dance the night away one minute and next morning seen getting assistance on and off the ship, stick in hand and all that.

You could describe my sister like that. Who just wants to be normal but unfortunately her back has other ideas. She could be walking stairs only a few though one day, next day complete opposite and she would need to be in a wheelchair for a few days which she hates being in. On Azura last October lift etiquette for someone in a wheelchair was impossible, people pushing in and most were only going one floor. Having others look up and down believing she should not be in a wheelchair.

 

When we did the Caribbean first time ever we took a wheelchair with us. She was able to walk down the steps from the plane onto the coach. Once we reached the cruise port her back just went and could hardly walk.    

[S1971]

11 minutes ago, carlanthony24 said:

You could describe my sister like that. Who just wants to be normal but unfortunately her back has other ideas. She could be walking stairs only a few though one day, next day complete opposite and she would need to be in a wheelchair for a few days which she hates being in. On Azura last October lift etiquette for someone in a wheelchair was impossible, people pushing in and most were only going one floor. Having others look up and down believing she should not be in a wheelchair.

 

When we did the Caribbean first time ever we took a wheelchair with us. She was able to walk down the steps from the plane onto the coach. Once we reached the cruise port her back just went and could hardly walk.    

 

There are of course many, many genuine people and that's not disputed, unfortunately there will also be some not so genuine.

 

Interestingly, P&O's new evac chair policy may see peoples attitudes change!!

 

[terrierjohn]

1 hour ago, kalos said:

 

Thanks Megabear ,saves a lot of us having to explain all the time 💗

Unfortunately the very nature of HIDDEN disabilities will always be subject to speculation  as to why someone who looks able bodied  would need special treatment with lifts or embarkation, and I doubt that any amount of education is likely to improve the situation.

[Megabear2]

1 minute ago, terrierjohn said:

Unfortunately the very nature of HIDDEN disabilities will always be subject to speculation  as to why someone who looks able bodied  would need special treatment with lifts or embarkation, and I doubt that any amount of education is likely to improve the situation.

Not sure of the purpose of HIDDEN but for a number of years they are correctly identified as non visible disabilities and as others have said it's very simple: able bodied and disabled passengers should stop questioning what others are doing.

 

https://disabilityunit.blog.gov.uk/2020/12/17/living-with-non-visible-disabilities/

[terrierjohn]

1 minute ago, Megabear2 said:

Not sure of the purpose of HIDDEN but for a number of years they are correctly identified as non visible disabilities and as others have said it's very simple: able bodied and disabled passengers should stop questioning what others are doing.

 

https://disabilityunit.blog.gov.uk/2020/12/17/living-with-non-visible-disabilities/

No purpose at all except as a highlight.

[Josy1953]

A lot of people look perfectly healthy but do need to use a lift.  My husband has a heart condition that isn't visible but he tries to walk up the stairs if he feels well enough because he refuses to let it rule his life.  If he is not feeling too good he will take the lift and if there are a lot of passengers waiting for the lift I walk up the stairs and meet him when he gets out of the lift.  My pet hate is to see big groups or families all pushing older or clearly disabled people out of the way so that they can crowd into the lift.

[Cloudyrain]

6 hours ago, S1971 said:

 

My example was on a plane not a ship, this is not a trotted out story, its fact.

 

The point I am making was the person in question got priority boarding using a lift platform to enter the plane first, stick in hand, once the plane landed the said person miraculously jumps up, gets bag from overhead locker, fold up stick nowhere to be seen, almost first off the plane, proceeds unassisted to the baggage claim, now it wasn't just me who witnessed lots of people did and to be honest we found it quite humorous to watch, there was no way this person had a hidden disability, it's also not the first time I've seen it happen.

 

Just to reiterate, all I'm saying is, it does happen.

 

 

 

 

of course it happens, often for a miracle reason - that miracle being prescription strength painkillers and medication. My Dad used to time his pain relief so he was in lower pain levels for disembarking as we generally found the level of assistance at that stage of the journey pretty poor in comparison to the help received at embarking (same goes for the plane as a ship to be honest).

 

Wether he was sat in a wheelchair in agony unable to walk, or dosed up and running along playing with his grandchild without any mobility aid, he still had cancerous tumours in every limb of this body. 
 

many conditions are variable (MS, brain damage, neurological, heart problems, diabetes etc) and can change within minutes or hours, and if you haven't personally experienced that (and think anyone who displays those sorts of variable symptoms is faking it) then lucky you. Sadly many people here, and their loved ones, do understand this and that's why it's upsetting to know that despite all this and all the hurdles people go through to get the help and support they need, they still get judged by ignorant people every day just for trying to have some kind of life.

[Cloudyrain]

5 hours ago, S1971 said:

 

There are of course many, many genuine people and that's not disputed, unfortunately there will also be some not so genuine.

 

Interestingly, P&O's new evac chair policy may see peoples attitudes change!!

 

The evac chair policy only affects people who use mobility aids, even part time, so actually its not going to change attitudes, just make it less accessible for those with variable illness (or those who have degenerative conditions that may deteriorate between booking and boarding).

 

you also dont need to have a mobility aid to get assistance to board or disembark, so all this special wonderful treatment that people seem to think disabled people get (but actually isn't any earlier or quicker, just a slightly different process to try and help people who need it), and will be completely unaffected by the evacuation chair policy. In fact it might just mean that people with variable illness are less able to enjoy their cruise because they cant take fold up wheelchairs or walking poles onboard for use in port now as they could before if there are no evac-places, and those who do only need them part of the time will be faced with a choice of taking a slot of someone who needs it full time and therefore reducing the holiday options with P&O for mobility aid users. 

[S1971]

4 hours ago, Cloudyrain said:

of course it happens, often for a miracle reason - that miracle being prescription strength painkillers and medication. My Dad used to time his pain relief so he was in lower pain levels for disembarking as we generally found the level of assistance at that stage of the journey pretty poor in comparison to the help received at embarking (same goes for the plane as a ship to be honest).

 

Wether he was sat in a wheelchair in agony unable to walk, or dosed up and running along playing with his grandchild without any mobility aid, he still had cancerous tumours in every limb of this body. 
 

many conditions are variable (MS, brain damage, neurological, heart problems, diabetes etc) and can change within minutes or hours, and if you haven't personally experienced that (and think anyone who displays those sorts of variable symptoms is faking it) then lucky you. Sadly many people here, and their loved ones, do understand this and that's why it's upsetting to know that despite all this and all the hurdles people go through to get the help and support they need, they still get judged by ignorant people every day just for trying to have some kind of life.

 

As said in an earlier post, I can empathise in situations like yours and your dad's, I have total understanding and experience of living with both visual and non visual disabilities.

 

But I am also not naive enough to believe that everyone is totally honest, having witnessed it numerous times, it doesn't make me ignorant, just a realistic.

 

 

 

 

[S1971]

4 hours ago, Cloudyrain said:

In fact it might just mean that people with variable illness are less able to enjoy their cruise because they cant take fold up wheelchairs or walking poles onboard for use in port now as they could before if there are no evac-places, and those who do only need them part of the time will be faced with a choice of taking a slot of someone who needs it full time and therefore reducing the holiday options with P&O for mobility aid users. 

 

There is no obligation to disclose disabilities to P&O or anyone.

 

So those with intermittent problems will have the choice of whether to disclose or not.

 

Of course morally they should, but given the choice of a cruise or not, realistically people may choose not to disclose. 

 

All hypothetical of course.

[Cloudyrain]

3 hours ago, S1971 said:

 

As said in an earlier post, I can empathise in situations like yours and your dad's, I have total understanding and experience of living with both visual and non visual disabilities.

 

But I am also not naive enough to believe that everyone is totally honest, having witnessed it numerous times, it doesn't make me ignorant, just a realistic.

 

 

 

 

But you don't empathise, you look and automatically assume that someone with clearly variable physical presentations is a faker. And unless you have MRI/PET scan vision and access to medical records I really don't know how you can know you have witnessed it numerous times.

 

You might even have seen my Dad and thought that of him, and that's fine - being terminally ill he didn't very much care to be honest and the narrow minded opinions of ignorant onlookers never really bothered him, he had bigger fish to fry. But my mum used to get really upset: and I have had it too with my son where people openly comment that there is "nothing wrong with them" without having any idea of what actually is happening inside a body or people's life.

[nosapphire]

I've been reading this thread with interest, and my personal opinion (the later discussions about need or not) is that you are all correct.

There are most definitely people who will take advantage in any situation - I've heard them later bragging about how they manage to beat the queues by claiming this,that or the other - and I lump them in the same category as those who also brag about how many items they can get for free when "accidentally forgetting" to scan at the self service checkout, or who think it acceptable to leave all their empty cans and cartons on the train seats.

 

Then there are also many people, with or without any form of disablility or handicap, who do need a bit of extra help, whether it si always or just sometimes.

The big difference is the "scammers" are trying to get a priority advantage, the genuine are just asking for assistance.

If we forget the word "disability" and accept that in a majority of cases there is a valid reason for the request, and stop tutting - we may all be a bit less stressed.

As an example - there are many reasons (some temporary, some permanent) why needing a toilet can be a very, very urgent need, and if the nearest available is a disabled toilet then that gets used. I have seen people do this, and if they come out and find somebody in a wheelchair waiting to go in, they are absolutely mortified - there was no doubt in my mind that they used the disabled toilet because they had to, not simply because they were being selfish.

 

People do not have to have a "recognised disability" (visible or not) to sometimes need a bit of help, a bit of patience from those waiting behind, or sometimes just a kind offer of "would you like to go first?".

[Cloudyrain]

3 hours ago, S1971 said:

 

There is no obligation to disclose disabilities to P&O or anyone.

 

So those with intermittent problems will have the choice of whether to disclose or not.

 

Of course morally they should, but given the choice of a cruise or not, realistically people may choose not to disclose. 

 

All hypothetical of course.

In England you have to disclose disabilities constantly to access any kind of assistance or services: and that goes for P&O. They don't give people things just because they claim to have a need.

 

Even for assistance on an airplane or ship you have to contact them before you travel, advise you have a medical need and require assistance. This is then booked in advance and then organised based on the needs. If you have certain medication or medical devices/equipment you also have to disclose this at security etc. also this assistance you seem to think is so marvellous is often very variable and pretty rubbish, and doesn't make things quicker, just slightly more manageable.

[david63]

15 minutes ago, Cloudyrain said:

In England you have to disclose disabilities constantly to access any kind of assistance or services

That is a very grey area. Under the Equality Act you can be asked if you have a disability but you are not obliged to state what that disability is, or actually admit that you have a disability. However in some circumstances not disclosing that you have a disability and/or stating what that disability is can work against you.

 

20 minutes ago, Cloudyrain said:

that goes for P&O

Who can, and do, only ask what assistance you need.

 

20 minutes ago, Cloudyrain said:

They don't give people things just because they claim to have a need.

In many scenarios there is no other option but to give what is requested without having any proof of need.

[S1971]

20 minutes ago, david63 said:

That is a very grey area. Under the Equality Act you can be asked if you have a disability but you are not obliged to state what that disability is, or actually admit that you have a disability. However in some circumstances not disclosing that you have a disability and/or stating what that disability is can work against you.

 

Who can, and do, only ask what assistance you need.

 

In many scenarios there is no other option but to give what is requested without having any proof of need.

 

Absolutely 100% agree on all points.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20 by S1971

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, S1971 said:

 

Absolutely 100% agree on all points.

 

 

 

 

As one of the another persons taking this "personally" I would have thought that by now instead of causing extra distress to those who have a different view through personal experience it might be kinder to stop dissecting their situations? At the moment it seems that you are just going out of your way to pour more oil on the fire, we know your opinion, I accept it and perhaps now might be a good time to stop arguing with others who wish to tell of their experiences.  As you say an open forum is for everyone and if someone wants to speak of life on the "other side" there doesn't seem to be any point in continually repeating the same points, after all they've been moved to write to give the alternative view. 

 

Of course we take it personally.  We are the other side of the coin to the ones you claim abuse situations, and actually our family members are the ones who are made, whether intentionally or not, to feel very bad by the looks and comments they receive. 

 

As I said before it's not very nice to have someone say to you "there's stairs over their mate" (as happened to my husband on Britannia) when he lives not only with chronic pain from fibromyalgia but also has several parts of his heart not working.   

 

No one would dream of writing or speaking in such a way about someone with a visible disability, surely it's not too much to ask for the same respect without assumptions as to whether someone is genuinely in need.  

 

[S1971]

Unfortunately MB2 you appear to want to express your personal views on me time and time again, strangely what you claim I'm doing, yet I'm not allowed to express mine in reply without allegedly causing offence.

 

I'm not the only one with these views on this thread by the way.

 

Best we agree to disagree on this thread.

 

Edited June 20 by S1971

[Megabear2]

1 hour ago, S1971 said:

Unfortunately MB2 you appear to want to express your personal views on me time and time again, strangely what you claim I'm doing, yet I'm not allowed to express mine in reply without allegedly causing offence.

 

I'm not the only one with these views on this thread by the way.

 

Best we agree to disagree on this thread.

 

I'm fully aware you aren't the only one on this thread with these views but this thread wasn't about non visible disabilities but has taken a side track.  I'm guilty in that I mentioned the topic in respect to one comment regarding our very well respected friend Selbourne.  He and I vehemently disagree about lift use by people with hidden disabilities, we have discussed the issue very many times in a civilized manner.  There has been countless discussion between us and others on his problems with fake priority boarding and the reasons he no longer uses that route when disembarking a ship.  

 

With regard to personal, we had a discussion, I accepted your opinion and left it.  Overnight people offered their stories, I rejoined the conversation because frankly one person in particular sounded extremely upset by how you responded and I thought it unkind and unnecessary for that conversation to continue.  That's not personal it's suggesting enough is enough and maybe time to leave and return to the original topic of the thread, ie the accessibility form completion, walking sticks and occasional use of wheelchairs etc.