Passenger Vessel Service Act

[milogurd]

49 minutes ago, Cruise Raider said:

And if you somehow you violate the PVSA, you will also incur a fine.  The ship is unlikely to allow you to do so by booking cruises in violation but let’s say I start in one US port and get off in at another one by your own choice, I’ve heard people state that the cruise line just had that fine added to their folio.  It’s not cheap, either.  

From: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-19/chapter-I/part-4/subject-group-ECFR610bc0266d90628/section-4.80

 

The penalty imposed for the unlawful transportation of passengers between coastwise points is $971 for each passenger so transported and landed...

[cr8tiv1]

I have been on several small bus tours where the guide has asked if there are any passengers with special needs.  They are allowed to board first.  I am sure they would accommodate your husband. 

 

4 hours ago, pedirn said:

This looks interesting but we have found that many of airports do not take large planes.  Not a problem for me but DH is extremely claustrophobic and cannot do a small plane.   This is also why we don’t often book tours as we can’t count on them being a full size bus.   We have found our fellow passengers have not been that understanding when on smaller vehicles and he requests to sit next to door. 

 

 

[MelbourneFloridaCruiser]

12 hours ago, chrysalis said:

we did it this summer without an issues.....Boston to Greenland, Boston to Quebec and Quebec to Boston. There were others that did the 2 legs of Boston to Boston, too.

 

We  have it booked for next summer, too.

Yes but again, did not sail between two different US ports.  Started in Boston and ended in Boston.  Also went to Greenland, so you went to a distant foreign port.

[Bgwest]

If the Chief sees this, perhaps he will provide the definitive answer to all of this. 

[Shmoo here]

On 10/18/2024 at 3:11 PM, memoak said:

So the 2 night layover in Quebec does not count ?

The PVSA is interested in where a passenger embarks on a ship, and then disembarks from the same ship (regardless of how long they spend in any given port during the cruise).

 

A Boston to Quebec cruise does not violate the PVSA because its NOT between 2 different US ports

 

A Quebec to Boston cruise also does not violate the PVSA for the same reason.

 

A Boston to Boston B2B cruise does not violate the PVSA because it's between the same US port.

 

A Boston to Ft Lauderdale B2B does violate the PVSA because it's between 2 different US ports, with no distant foreign port stop.

Edited Sunday at 04:17 AM by Shmoo here

[VibeGuy]

1 hour ago, Shmoo here said:

The PVSA is interested in where a passenger embarks on a ship, and then disembarks from the same ship (regardless of how long they spend in any given port during the cruise).

 

…

 

A Boston to Ft Lauderdale B2B does violate the PVSA because it's between 2 different US ports, with no distant foreign port stop.

sort of. 
 

24 hours off the ship breaks the voyage string the same way changing ships does, and this particular pair of itineraries happens to have more than 24 hours in the turnaround point. 
 

While a passenger (and technically their baggage) cannot stay aboard and make the chain a compliant single voyage, CBP has had rulemaking on this for years - a 24 hour pause between voyages is equivalent to a change of bottom.  The chain is broken.  
 

Hence the discussion of needing to route sector out the last night in Quebec City or do an overland route sector from Saguenay - as published, the combo is not compliant.  As modified with a route sector on the first sailing that would likely be granted (because the ship and passengers entered Canada and thus completed CBSA formalities at St John, NB a week prior, and passengers are specifically allowed to disembark upon arrival in Quebec City and not spend the last night onboard)?   Oddly compliant. 
 

It’s incredibly rare for Princess to have a sailing sequence that does this, but the quirks of flying out of Quebec City (or hauling to Montreal) lead to this exclusion.   There are, to my knowledge, no other ports in North America where Princess takes an operational overnight between linehaul cruises.  
 

So while it looks like a back to back, per CBP, if the passenger takes the opportunity to to fully disembark at some point that leaves them off the ship for 24 hours, it’s actually a tail-to-tail for compliance purposes. 

[d9704011]

3 hours ago, VibeGuy said:

While a passenger (and technically their baggage) cannot stay aboard and make the chain a compliant single voyage, CBP has had rulemaking on this for years - a 24 hour pause between voyages is equivalent to a change of bottom.  The chain is broken.  

Can you provide a link to the ruling/interpretation?

Edited Sunday at 10:11 AM by d9704011

[VibeGuy]

7 hours ago, d9704011 said:

Can you provide a link to the ruling/interpretation?

 

Turns out it’s actually older than I thought.  
 

The definitions around continuity and purpose of the voyage are established in a series of Opinions of the Attorney General. 
 

See:

18 O.A.G. 445, September 4, 1886;

28 O.A.G. 204, February 16, 1910;

29 O.A.G. 318, February 12, 1912;

30 O.A.G. 44, February 1, 1913;

34 O.A.G. 340, December 24, 1924

 

Further digging reveals that the thinking on continuity of voyages goes back to British law on vessels from neutral countries trading with two combatant countries.  
 

There was some rulemaking in 1985 that allowed closed-loop cruises to include US ports other than the departure port that CBP makes repeated reference to (but doesn’t actually cite formally with a footnote) that relies on this - that the calls to US ports are incidental because they’re less than 24 hours and it’s okay because the foreign port touch is all that makes it not coastwise trading because nobody’s actually being transported (they end up at the same port).  Literally the basis for closed-loop Alaska from Seattle. 
 

 

[chengkp75]

1 hour ago, VibeGuy said:

There was some rulemaking in 1985 that allowed closed-loop cruises to include US ports other than the departure port

This is where the term "permanent disembarkation" came into use, as the disembarkation at a US port of call was not "permanent" (you were not leaving the ship), but "temporary" disembarkation.  As you say, if the passenger "permanently" disembarks (settles their bill, and removes their luggage), and spends 24 hours off the ship, then the counter resets and the passenger can board for a new voyage.  Whether or not Princess wishes to deal with this, though, is a different matter, and theirs to decide. 

Edited Sunday at 09:01 PM by chengkp75

[pedirn]

On 10/19/2024 at 2:39 PM, Ken the cruiser said:

Just for the record, the PCL land cruise starts in Toronto where I'm sure the airport there can handle large aircraft like the Delta aircraft we flew in on. Also, the tour bus we were in for 5 days from Toronto to Quebec City was a full size 54 passenger bus.

Thanks….for some reason I thought Montreal.   I know from previous trip smaller planes into Quebec City.