Does Oceania have plans to expand the free air program?

[owl61]

The "free" air program offers significant savings to O customers, but is now limited to USA and Canada residents. I wonder if the management of O (who occasionally visit these boards) would inform us who happen to live outside the USA and Canada whether the program will be expanded to include residents of other countries. After all, the same airlines fly to and from all countries so why the current limitation?

[Jancruz]

Sorry they do not

Jan

*****

[owl61]

Jan, I understand you are more knowledgeable about O than most. Do you have any idea why an expanded air package program is not under consideration? Assuming the current air progran is not a losing proposition for the line, would it not benefit all concerned to expand it ?

[Jancruz]

Jan, I understand you are more knowledgeable about O than most. Do you have any idea why an expanded air package program is not under consideration? Assuming the current air progran is not a losing proposition for the line, would it not benefit all concerned to expand it ?

 

I wish I could help you ..I have no idea about why they dont sell air from other countries..I do know the hardest part of any cruise line is the air department..that is probably the department where the most problems are..

Hope this helps!

Jan

*****

[derricj]

In most cases, these decsions are determined by profit potential. It could be the larger percentage of O's pax are US based. Also exchange rates, regulations and law may be a consideration as well.

 

Just some thoughts

jd

[thewatcher]

I wonder whether Oceania's representatives in Australia (and other countries) read this website, because I know that Oceania's CEO's in USA do. Both groups should note that the current thinking, which seems to run along the lines that Australian passengers can be overcharged by trying to hold them hostage to price gouging by the Australian wholesaler is not doing the company any favours. Some of us (and I know I am not alone) used to buy Oceania fares online in the competitive global marketplace. Now most USA sellers are told they are not ALLOWED to sell to Australian customers. When we phone the Australian wholesaler the woman is very smug about this new turn of events; says that she has to cover her advertising costs and that there is no way she can compete with USA prices. As if we need her meagre advertising efforts to become aware of and shop the market. Certainly there is no way that prices charged in Australia can compete - and the outcome is that we no longer consider Oceania cruises. Oceania you are losing customers. Oceania Australia - you are a joke and an insult to people's intelligence. BTW I am not necessarily asking for free air; even competitive pricing would be a change for the better.

 

There's a whole planet out there - it may be that Oceania's main customer base is from Northern America - certainly that is the case. If they don't want anyone from the rest of the world, keep the system the way it is :mad:

[LHT28]

It could be regulations in the U.K. travel industry (maybe other countries)that does not allow US based travel companies to sell direct to the customer.

 

I have heard UK customers do not have the option of cancelling and they MUST purchase insurance at the time of booking.

Maybe someone can comment on that?

[owl61]

I wonder whether Oceania's representatives in Australia (and other countries) read this website, because I know that Oceania's CEO's in USA do. Both groups should note that the current thinking, which seems to run along the lines that Australian passengers can be overcharged by trying to hold them hostage to price gouging by the Australian wholesaler is not doing the company any favours. Some of us (and I know I am not alone) used to buy Oceania fares online in the competitive global marketplace. Now most USA sellers are told they are not ALLOWED to sell to Australian customers. When we phone the Australian wholesaler the woman is very smug about this new turn of events; says that she has to cover her advertising costs and that there is no way she can compete with USA prices. As if we need her meagre advertising efforts to become aware of and shop the market. Certainly there is no way that prices charged in Australia can compete - and the outcome is that we no longer consider Oceania cruises. Oceania you are losing customers. Oceania Australia - you are a joke and an insult to people's intelligence. BTW I am not necessarily asking for free air; even competitive pricing would be a change for the better.

[owl61]

I wonder whether Oceania's representatives in Australia (and other countries) read this website, because I know that Oceania's CEO's in USA do. Both groups should note that the current thinking, which seems to run along the lines that Australian passengers can be overcharged by trying to hold them hostage to price gouging by the Australian wholesaler is not doing the company any favours. Some of us (and I know I am not alone) used to buy Oceania fares online in the competitive global marketplace. Now most USA sellers are told they are not ALLOWED to sell to Australian customers. When we phone the Australian wholesaler the woman is very smug about this new turn of events; says that she has to cover her advertising costs and that there is no way she can compete with USA prices. As if we need her meagre advertising efforts to become aware of and shop the market. Certainly there is no way that prices charged in Australia can compete - and the outcome is that we no longer consider Oceania cruises. Oceania you are losing customers. Oceania Australia - you are a joke and an insult to people's intelligence. BTW I am not necessarily asking for free air; even competitive pricing would be a change for the better.

 

There's a whole planet out there - it may be that Oceania's main customer base is from Northern America - certainly that is the case. If they don't want anyone from the rest of the world, keep the system the way it is :mad:

 

Excuse the previous flawed endeavor.

Now you have opened a whole new can of worms. Ever since the US Sup Ct decision in Spector v Norwegian 545 US 119 (2005) I have been waiting for the second shoe to drop, to wit, a lawsuit attacking the cruise line practice of differential pricing based upon country of residence. In Spector the court held that foreign flagged cruise ships sailing in US waters are subject to the provisions of the US American With Disabilities Act (ADA) which prohibits discrimination based upon physical impairment. In so holding the court said that " Although Title III's "public accommodation" and "specified public transportation" definitions do not expressly mention cruise ships, there is no doubt that the NCL ships in question fall within both definitions under conventional principles of interpretation." If the cruise ships were places of public accomodation and transport for purposes of the ADA, clearly they are also such for purposes of other anti-discrimination statutes, specifically the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II of which prohibits discrimination against persons in places of public accomodations based upon religion, race, color and NATIONAL ORIGIN. The definition of the term "persons" in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act is not limited to US nationals and one would expect US law to apply to all cruise lines subject to US jurisdiction ( sailing in US waters).

Apparently, for reasons best to known to themselves, cruise lines do maintain differential pricing based upon national residence. I observe this myself when as a resident of Brasil I compare pricing with local and US based travel agencies. It seems to me this could be considered unlawful discrimination based upon national origin. I don't know whether Australia has similar laws, but if you ( or some othe white knight) are sufficiently serious about doing something because you are getting charged more simply because you live in Australia, then you might consider consulting with a smart US civil rights attorney to see whether my theory holds water.

I love cruising, but the industry is under regulated. This may be because of an effective cruise industry lobby and the absence of any orgs willing to seek necessary change. Unfortunately, the main catalyst for change seems to be a small coterie of Florida based legal specialists and the courts. Not an effective way to go.

[lahore]

It's my understanding that it is actually Oceania who have banned US based companies from selling to, in this case again, Australia. As far as I know, GATS agreements and global trade practices could not support such bans - but I might look into the GATS thing just for interest. I can't speak for the UK. As an Australian buyer, I always have travel insurance anyway, although it's not mandated.

 

I like OWL61's idea a lot, ufortunately the cost of mounting litigation in the states is well out of my price range :rolleyes: .

[LHT28]

It's my understanding that it is actually Oceania who have banned US based companies from selling to, in this case again, Australia. .

Just curious

Do other cruise lines sell to Australians through U.S travel agencies or do you need to book though a wholesaler/TA in OZ?

 

Some cruise lines we can only book through a TA who books through a wholesaler in Canada.

We cannot book direct with the cruise line.

I have not tried booking them through a US based TA though other than Oceania

[lahore]

Short answer LHT28 - yes, they do and yes I have bought from them. Many consider themselves global sellers, internet and all that it shouldn't really matter where they are physically based in my opinon. Wishful thinking with Oceania I guess.

[Justgottago]

It's my understanding that it is actually Oceania who have banned US based companies from selling to, in this case again, Australia.

We are in New Zealand not Australia. We looked into buying our tickets for our cruise next year online from a US travel agent. We discovered a clause that states that passengers must purchase their ticket from a TA in the country in which they normally reside buried deep in the small print on the Oceania web site. We chickened out as the fear of attempting to check in with our NZ passorts and being denied boarding loomed large.

[owl61]

I find this discussion very thought provoking. Here are a few more of mine.

 

1. What I know about GATS and its effect on price differentiation and/or prohibition of cross border selling would echo in a thimble, but I suspect that a violation of such international treaties does not give rise to an individual's private right of action.

2. The inclusion of a clause in the Oceania contract expressly prohibiting a person from buying from a TA outside his country is legally suspect. Prohibition of cross border sales by a cruise line directly or by mandate to its sales agents, especially if it predictably results in a price differential, could run afoul of Title II of the Civil RIghts Act's prohibition on discrimination based upon national origin or some broader restraint of trade or antitrust laws. Any international lawyers or antitrust lawyers out there care to comment?

3. Besides price, there exists other forms of cross border differentiations.I am a US ciitizen permanently residing in Rio, Brasil. I can buy cruises from both US agents and Brasilian agents, but US agents can not sell me certain itineraries that are avaliable in Brasil. For example, on a Costa cruise that ports in both Rio and Sao Paulo I can buy it either Rio to Rio or SP to SP here in Brasil, but only SP to SP from US agents ( not a minor distinction for someone living in Rio). In either case the price is higher in Brasil and I don't think its because local sellers voluntarily refuse to discount.

 

Anyone knowledgeable about industry norms care to comment?

[Jancruz]

There are many Cruise Lines that let American agents book Australia, New Zealand and UK..HAL, Azamara, Celebrity etc.

Jan

*****

[owl61]

There are many Cruise Lines that let American agents book Australia, New Zealand and UK..HAL, Azamara, Celebrity etc.

Jan

*****

I notice that Oceania is not on your list of lines that permit American agents to sell to AU residents who, according to thewatcher, are therefor forced to pay the higher prices charged by the AU travel agents. Is this a confirmation that the prohibition complained of by thewatcher above is valid?

I perused the Oceania online cruise contract and could not find the clause described by justgottago requiring customers to buy tickets from agents in countires where they normally reside. Care to direct me to the clause in question?

Something smells fishy to me.

[thewatcher]

What a fascinating discussion. I will be most intrigued to see where this leads to, if anywhere. Like Lahore, I don't have the means to take on what I understand to be the nightmare of litigation in USA. I guess if I did I would not be worried about paying a few thousand extra for a cruise - and there's the rub.

 

Justgottago, where is that clause, I also had a look for it and couldn't find it? I know that some agents (e.g. *****) regretfully and politely turn down our business.

 

Owl61, you might not know much about GATS - neither do I - but you certainly seem to know a lot about law - more than I do. Your comments are so interesting. I do hope someone senior from Oceania is reading this thread.

 

Jancruz is, I fear, far too close to Oceania to ever say anything negative about them, even when in this case a change of policy would be in her interest. That is a pity, she and her collagues in USA might be the ones to leverage some response.

[LHT28]

I notice that Oceania is not on your list of lines that permit American agents to sell to AU residents who, according to thewatcher, are therefor forced to pay the higher prices charged by the AU travel agents.

.

 

How much higher are the prices charged to AU passenger?

Can you give an example?

[LHT28]

I perused the Oceania online cruise contract and could not find the clause described by justgottago requiring customers to buy tickets from agents in countires where they normally reside. Care to direct me to the clause in question?

Something smells fishy to me.

This may be it

United States and Canadian travel agents may only take bookings for clients from the US and Canada, holding US or Canadian passports. All other international clients must be booked through travel agencies within their respective country of residence, as designated on their passport.

http://www.oceaniacruises.com/T_MainContentPage.aspx?pageuid=3c9edb37-c49f-4074-9be6-584a9d210663

[LHT28]

I know that some agents (e.g. *****) regretfully and politely turn down our business.

 

I found this note on VTG website and it is not only O that does not sell to International customers from U.S. or Canadian agents

 

Note: Holland America, MSC, Oceania, Princess, Royal Caribbean and Star Clippers now prohibit U.S. travel agencies (including Vacations To Go) from selling cruises to customers who do not have a residence in the U.S. or Canada.

 

I suspect it is more to do with some legal issues than not wanting to do business with International passengers.

[Jancruz]

What a fascinating discussion. I will be most intrigued to see where this leads to, if anywhere. Like Lahore, I don't have the means to take on what I understand to be the nightmare of litigation in USA. I guess if I did I would not be worried about paying a few thousand extra for a cruise - and there's the rub.

 

Justgottago, where is that clause, I also had a look for it and couldn't find it? I know that some agents (e.g. *****) regretfully and politely turn down our business.

 

Owl61, you might not know much about GATS - neither do I - but you certainly seem to know a lot about law - more than I do. Your comments are so interesting. I do hope someone senior from Oceania is reading this thread.

 

Jancruz is, I fear, far too close to Oceania to ever say anything negative about them, even when in this case a change of policy would be in her interest. That is a pity, she and her collagues in USA might be the ones to leverage some response.

 

 

I will tell you all I know..Oceania has told me many times they have a contract with companies in those countries and that does not allow them to let American agents to book ..Believe me when I tell you I have no leverage with them at all! I have tried many times but in this case I believe you the general public will have to see what you can do..

 

Jan

*****

[lahore]

With LH28 Jan and the OP, as well as my own experience we've proven that it happens. The question I would like answered is why? I simply can't see what's in it for Oceania (and the other cruise lines). I just keep banging on about it, but I thought the internet had globalised trade? It certainly has on ebay, on many many online stores in USA, and on other travel options (I can book a hotel or an airfare in the USA FAR cheaper online than I can here in Australia and nobody minds). So why cruises? I just don't get the thinking.

 

Jan, maybe you can point FDR's nose in this direction....?

[owl61]

Thanks Phil for pointing out the clause in the Oceania contract prohibiting cross border sales. A superficial reading of the provisions of the Clayton Act indicates that such a prohibition may be a violation.

§ 2 Clayton Act, 15 U.S.C. §§ 13(2)

 

Discrimination in price, services, or facilities

 

(a) Price; selection of customers

It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, either directly or indirectly, to discriminate in price between different purchasers of commodities of like grade and quality, where either or any of the purchases involved in such discrimination are in commerce, where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States, and where the effect of such discrimination may be substantially to lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly in any line of commerce, or to injure, destroy, or prevent competition with any person who either grants or knowingly receives the benefit of such discrimination, or with customers of either of them:

 

and:

 

f) Knowingly inducing or receiving discriminatory price

It shall be unlawful for any person engaged in commerce, in the course of such commerce, knowingly to induce or receive a discrimination in price which is prohibited by this section.

 

Thanks to those of you who have joined this discussion. Others who have suffered prejudicial pricing are encouraged to tell us about your experiences - with specificity please. As you may have gathered I was a lawyer in a prior life. I will do a little more investigation as my curiousity is now sufficiently aroused, not to mention my ire. As I clean out the mental cobwebs it seems to me that besides the unlawful restraint of trade that such contractual prohibitions may constitute, there also exist serious questions about Civil Rights Act violations based upon national origin discrimination. I just wonder why no one has taken this matter on...makes me think I am shooting blanks.

However these issues develop, it is beyond dispute that the cruiselines are underregulated. In addition to these questionable pricing and selective itnerary issues based upon residence, cruiseline contracts contain unconscionable clauses designed to insulate them from all sorts of claims. For example, what other entity is able to break a contract with impunity simply because it is profitable to do so? A cruise ship can cancel a cruise without having to compensate passengers who have booked, paid and incurred associated ( and non recuperable ) expense for no reason other than it wants to book the ship for a private party and thereby earn more profit. To me that is outrageous. Attempts by the ships to exculpate themselves for the negliegence of those that work for, with and through them are offensive. Oh well, lets take it step by step. To be continued.

[thewatcher]

I would be impressed to see somebody with the understanding and know how to analyse this, go for it Owl.

 

This worries my non-legal brain:

 

"where such commodities are sold for use, consumption, or resale within the United States or any Territory thereof or the District of Columbia or any insular possession or other place under the jurisdiction of the United States"

 

Isn't it the case that the commodities (in this case the cruise) are sold for use outside of the united states? Clearly some cruises are within USA waters, but others are not.

 

I could give specific details of prejudicial pricing if a less public forum were available.

[LHT28]

With LH28 Jan and the OP, as well as my own experience we've proven that it happens.

 

I asked in the thread about the price difference for OZ passengers and still wondering how it compares to the brochure rates?

 

If you are not happy about how they do the booking I would write to head office with your comment ...If enough international passenger complain maybe the cruise lines would change the rules.

 

Lyn