Demographics and the "Requested Dress Code"

[lvcruiser]

[quote name='Sky Sweet']Hi Smart Cookie :)

Based on my experience, you can't tell anything about a person's education, occupation, or income by the way they dress.

However, in my opinion, whether a person decides to follow or ignore a dress code might give an indication of other things.

Prior to owning my own business, I held a middle management position for a corporation that was located in New York City. At that time, people in the corporate world were expected to dress a certain way, and if someone showed up for a job interview in inappropriate attire, I would be reluctant to hire them. That is because I thought a person who did not adhere to the accepted dress code at that time might be reluctant to follow other company procedures.[/quote]

The operative word in your second sentence is "might." I certainly would not judge an individual's work ethic by how they do or do not follow rules while on vacation because many people comparmentalize their lives. In one aspect of their life, they may cut loose and say "to hell with the rest of the world," while in another aspect, they may follow every rule and procedure to the letter. If they showed up for a job interview inappropriately dressed, then yes, there would most likely be a problem with hiring them. But that isn't the same as someone dressing inappropriately while on vacation 2000 miles away from home.

[Ma Bell]

[quote name='lvcruiser']If your idea of having fun with me is taking a one sentence quote out of context, turning it around to suit yourself and attempting to find logic when there was none, I'm not laughing. Why do you feel there is only the socially elite and socially depraved, with nothing in between? I was not attempting to provide logic in my statement; I was only passing on observations and some common sense rules to follow that make life a lot easier to swallow. If you want to talk logic, please realize that not all social elitists are snobs and not all snobs are socially elite. Are you familiar with the difference between valid and sound statements? The primary jab I was making with that entire paragraph, and not just the one sentence that you quoted, was at the people on this board who write as though their world will come to an end if someone doesn't get a handle on the atrocities Celebrity has made by not forcing passengers to follow the dress code. In my simplistic mind, a snob is someone who thinks they are so much better than another, they have the right and actively carry out that right to impose their opinions upon the others, telling them what to do, when they are wrong and what to do right, without being asked, and then getting even more upset when their advice isn't followed by the person who didn't ask for it in the first place. The individual who stated he would not talk to someone not appropriately dressed comes to mind. That's what I call missing out on life in a big way.

What makes one person better than another? Is it their social standing, how much money they have or how they look and dress? If you answer yes, then you're missing the big picture. I learned a long time ago not to judge a book by its cover. One day in the mid-80's, while working as a VP in charge of lending at a regional banking establishment in Naples, Fl., I had the opportunity to close loans for one of my loan officers who had called in sick. While reviewing two of the loan applications prior to the closing appointments, I noticed the first of two back to back closings showed a family net worth of $225,000 and the second showed a net worth of over $6MM. When the first couple arrived for their loan, they drove up in separate cars; the wife driving a Mercedes and the husband driving a Jag. The wife was wearing Versace and thousands of dollars in jewelry while the husband was dressed in Armani and sporting an $18K Rolex. When they walked into my office, their noses were so far up in the air, if it had been raining, they would have drowned. All show and no substance when you consider they were wearing their net worth. When the second couple, the true millionaires, arrived, they did so in a beat up 15 year old Volkswagen Beetle. He was wearing shorts and a t-shirt while she had on cutoffs and a tank top. They weren't trying to impress me or anyone else, because they didn't need to; they had already made it to their station in life and didn't have to worry about what anyone else thought of them. It sure taught me that although dress and appearance may give others a first and possibly lasting impression, it isn't the true judge of who or what a person really is. This parable isn't necessarily appropriate for this thread, but it makes my point that some people should begin caring less about how someone across the dining room from them looks on their next cruise.

End of rant.[/quote]

None of this has anything to do with whether one should follow the dress code. As Phil so eloquently put it, it's just plain common courtesy, no more no less.

[Smartcookie]

Lvcruiser,

I just wanted to second your post!

Reminds me of friends, he's a cardiologist and she's a pediatrician, they drove up to the realtors office in their beat-up volvo wagon on the Cape wearing cut-off jeans, no one wanted to wait on them, so they got back in the car and went to the next real estate office.

They bought a bayfront vacation house that very weekend.

[lysolqn]

[quote name='lvcruiser']I have made the suggestion before and will do so again that the most ardent followers of a strict dress code who get offended by others that do not share the same opinions may wish to mellow out a little before they give themselves a heart attack over something that should not be affecting their lives. Just as it has been stated that there are cruise lines for those who do not want to dress up at all on their vacations, there are also cruise lines for the socially elite (read "snobs") who prefer to dress formally each and every night.[/QUOTE]

No offense meant. There, I've quoted your entire paragraph verbatim and nothing has been taken out of context.

As you can clearly see, you were the one who suggested that "there are also cruise lines for the socially elite (read "snobs") who prefer to dress formally each and every night." If it is acceptable for you to categorize those who prefer to dress formally each and every night as socially elite snobs, aren't you perhaps exhibiting a double standard by being offended by a humorous suggestion that those at the other end of the spectrum might be "socially depraved slobs?

You'd be well advised to take your own suggestion and not "get offended by others that do not share the same opinions." In fact, you, too, "may wish to mellow out a little" before giving yourself "a heart attack over something that should not be affecting" your life.

[Drew B]

[quote name='lvcruiser']The operative word in your second sentence is "might." I certainly would not judge an individual's work ethic by how they do or do not follow rules while on vacation because many people comparmentalize their lives. In one aspect of their life, they may cut loose and say "to hell with the rest of the world," while in another aspect, they may follow every rule and procedure to the letter. If they showed up for a job interview inappropriately dressed, then yes, there would most likely be a problem with hiring them. But that isn't the same as someone dressing inappropriately while on vacation 2000 miles away from home.[/quote]

I don't believe that one's value system goes on vacation. If sombody believes in doing the right thing, they will do so 52 weeks out of the year, whether they are at home or on a trip. The problem with their character is not with how they are dressed per se, but rather with how they have showed that they place their own desires above all else (including the wishes of their host or the standards of their neighbors).

[FinelyCruising]

I think there are a few dynamics of assumptions in play here....

1) That some of those who dress 'in style' pretend to be something more than they actually are.

2) That some of those who dress 'in style' are both intelligent and mannered.

2) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' do not have manners.

3) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' are uneducated.

4) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' have no economic edge.

Anyone who wants to add to the possibilites please feel free to do so to add to the number of reasons that you can't judge a book by its cover.

IMHO, I think that one dresses for the occassion and that's that. That's just about following rules and about being absolute. The rules are the same for EVERYONE.

So if you want to start another item about how rich don't follow the rules because they don't need to, or the less than rich don't follow the rules because they are uneducated...well I guess we can just go on forever with ideas since it takes all kinds....;)

[Drew B]

In general, I agree with what you're saying. However, this one took me aback:

[quote name='FinelyCruising']2) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' do not have manners.
[/quote]

Are you talking specifically about not dressing 'in style' for formal night on a cruise? If so, I'd say that almost by definition, those that don't dress to code do not have manners...

[Schplinky]

[quote name='FinelyCruising']I think there are a few dynamics of assumptions in play here....

1) That some of those who dress 'in style' pretend to be something more than they actually are.

2) That some of those who dress 'in style' are both intelligent and mannered.

2) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' do not have manners.

3) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' are uneducated.

4) That some of those who do not dress 'in style' have no economic edge.

Anyone who wants to add to the possibilites please feel free to do so to add to the number of reasons that you can't judge a book by its cover.

IMHO, I think that one dresses for the occassion and that's that. That's just about following rules and about being absolute.

So if you want to start another item about how rich don't follow the rules because they don't need to, or the less than rich don't follow the rules because they are uneducated...well I guess we can just go on forever with ideas since it takes all kinds....;)[/quote]

1. That rude comments stage whispered in the dining room that are intended to embarrass those not dressed up ("oh, did you lose your luggage") are somehow not rude.

2. That those not dressed up are intentionally flouting the rules.

3. That those not dressed up were not assured by a travel agent, friend or waiter that it really doesn't matter if you don't dress up (we've heard many a waiter tell folks to come anyway when they inform them they don't have the right clothes with them).

4. That the people who couldn't give a rip about the rules will ever open a thread on dress codes.

[FinelyCruising]

[quote name='Drew B']In general, I agree with what you're saying. However, this one took me aback:



Are you talking specifically about not dressing 'in style' for formal night on a cruise? If so, I'd say that almost by definition, those that don't dress to code do not have manners...[/QUOTE]

But there may be the poor slob whose luggage was hijacked, dropped in the drink or simply lost. Maybe it could be argued that this group should have their manners card stamped at the door and hung around their necks like jewels rather than lose out on the fanfare

-or-

They should suck it up and say, better to pass on the event rather than risk the attention.

[cruise kitty]

My personal first choice would be no formal nights on a cruise, However, I always follow the evenings dress code. My dh wears one of his best dark suits and silk ties for formal and I wear a very nice silk dress with pearls. If we really don't want to dress up, then we order in, it's a matter of simple courtesy and social responsibility to follow the posted rules, if it is that huge of a deal to you, then choose a cruise line with a more relaxed dress code, or skip the formal nights, it has nothing to do with income or age it's just good manners... of course on the other hand, I've seen couples on formal nights keeping to the dress code in tuxs and gowns that make them look like a streetwalker and her ****, too bad the cruise lines can't turn you away for poor taste!

[cruise kitty]

sorry, I didn't realize that #imp was considered a bad word.

[FinelyCruising]

Yeah I know the type...problem is they usually look pretty good at looking like a Nancy, and I only wish I could....:D

So it's easier to hate 'em.;)

[Drew B]

[quote name='FinelyCruising']But there may be the poor slob whose luggage was hijacked, dropped in the drink or simply lost. [/quote]

Yes, that's an exception. I doubt that the people who go on dress code threads arguing that they don't need to dress to code, though, are saying it because they anticipate that their luggage will be lost...:p

[drrich2]

[QUOTE]The real issue is simply: are you a person that RESPECTS, and HONORS the rules and traditions of cruising, as well as adhering to the rules that are set forth by the company you CHOSE to sail on........? Or are you a DISRESPECTFUL, SELFISH, "Me" type who really doesn't have any common courtesy for your fellow passengers, the crew, or the company that you are vacationing with...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Regardless if X follows through and enforces its codes ( As adults now a days DO need babysitters it seems ) I find that a person who whole heartedly makes an attempt to purposely disobey a rule or ignore a code set forth by the company is a person without integrity, consideration, or respect....and not someone I would want to have in my presence.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Well said!

Perhaps now you may wish to consider packing your bags and getting out of Dodge before the "It's all about me" crowd goes on the attack.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]If they are cruising with Celebrity the only assumption one could make, demographic or otherwise, is that the male half of couple A must be extremely poorly educated given that he is clearly incapable of reading quite simple English.[/QUOTE]

I'm impressed with some of the 'black and white,' 'all or nothing' thinking in some of these 'dress code' threads. Some believe compliance with the dress code is a moral/ethical obligation and that knowing violation outside extreme circumstances is immoral/unethical & rude, and you're entitled to your view.

That said, there seems to at times be a tendency to characterize people who don't pretty strictly adhere to the dress code as what amounts to mannerless sociopaths; people who only value themselves & their wants/needs, with no regard for others outside their exploitability/usefulness (hence all this 'ME, ME, ME business).

Thing is, most people who violate some rule or other don't fit that profile more broadly. In another context, such an individual might be kind and considerate. Do the people casting disdain upon those who don't stick to the dress code comply with all the rules they encounter, everywhere they go, all the time?

I'm not opposed to people having & voicing disapproval of noncompliance, but sometimes I get the sense a few folks overgeneralize the judgemental bit.

Richard.

P.S.: I'm speaking regarding non-compliant passengers who are 'lax' or somewhat indifferent to the code, rather than someone deliberately going out of his way to flaunt it (i.e.: cut off shorts & tank top on formal night).

[Pushkin]

We are going on our fourth cruise - first with our children (9 year old twins). We are planning on them joining us for dinner on at least 2 of the 4 nights (including formal night). They will dress formally, as we will. They have been to many fine restaurants and have good manners. How is this accepted? Is this frowned on? Are families with children usually seated with other families with children?

Thanks for any input. :confused:

[Coco Creek]

To the Moderator: Is there any way we can ban the never ending, all so senseless dress code discussions that change and solve nothing?

My god, we are now discussing dress code on an airplane :confused: . Who cares? The great majority of Celebrity cruisers dress more or less in accordance with Celebrity accepted dress. The few who do not are not numerous enough to devote thread after thread, post and post, to discussing.

Let's get a life, myself included.

[clazz8]

I don't believe this. An incredible 190 posts covering 10 pages over something so simple as whether or not to respect the clearly stated dress requirements of the cruise line.
As someone who is seriously considering cruising with Celebrity for the first time I came to this forum hoping to get a feel for what we might expect. I have my answer,
Bye!

[Lois R]

[quote name='Pushkin']We are going on our fourth cruise - first with our children (9 year old twins). We are planning on them joining us for dinner on at least 2 of the 4 nights (including formal night). They will dress formally, as we will. They have been to many fine restaurants and have good manners. How is this accepted? Is this frowned on? Are families with children usually seated with other families with children?

Thanks for any input. :confused:[/quote]

Hi,:) when you made your reservation did you request a large table?
If you booked through a Travel Agent, they should have inquired what
you prefer. If you booked through Celebrity you could call back
and make a request that you would like to be seated with other
folks who have kids too.:) Is it frowned on? No, I have seen
lots of families together on formal nights!
Enjoy your cruise:)

[irishgirl]

I'm new to the Celebrity board but I've been lurking for a while since I'm booked on the Solstice.

I can see by reading this thread that some posters feel "clothes make the man". I have never judged people by what they wear, and I can't tell if they're educated by looking at them.

I grew up in the era that burned bras, fought for equal rights for women and banned the dress code. I was a senior in high school dress codes were considered unconstitutional and could not be enforced. So, maybe age comes into play as to how people dress.

Now, I dress for formal night, but not in a long formal and I wear the same outfit both formal nights. Is anyone going to notice?? Probably not and I really don't care if they do because I'm comfortable and happy with what I chose.

Judy in Michigan

[Pontius Navigator]

[quote name='drrich2']I think some of the older generations valued social conformity more. My great grandmother once commented that when she was young, they had 'styles,' but that now people just do whatever they want. I think she was talking about mens' haircuts.

Modern culture has moved toward valuing individuality, diversity & tolerance. You might see shaved heads, mohawks, hippie-long hair on guys who look like women at first glance when seen from behind, and many shade in between.

People raised in a generation that predominantly took its fashion cues from the greater society might be expected to follow this pattern again, particularly with an older tradition at issue, compared to some younger people whose motto might be 'I'm okay, you're okay.'
[/quote]

The young have styles and as for individuality and diversity you must be joking.

Correctly I wold agree that earlier generations took fashion cues from the greater society but now I would argue that the young take fashion from their peer group leaders.

Bitterly cold but no jacket or sweater and shirt tails hanging out.

Wear a hat - never. Now, go out with a 'hoodie' hood down - never.

Wear a frock or a jacket and tie - never, I'd look a laughing stock.

There is hardly a shred of individuality in a peer group.

As you grow older and more confident and your tuxedo fits less well then you may have the confidence to dress down on a dress up occaision :)

[Shipyard Cruiser]

[quote name='irishgirl']I'm new to the Celebrity board but I've been lurking for a while since I'm booked on the Solstice.

I can see by reading this thread that some posters feel "clothes make the man". I have never judged people by what they wear, and I can't tell if they're educated by looking at them.

I grew up in the era that burned bras, fought for equal rights for women and banned the dress code. I was a senior in high school dress codes were considered unconstitutional and could not be enforced. So, maybe age comes into play as to how people dress.

Now, I dress for formal night, but not in a long formal and I wear the same outfit both formal nights. Is anyone going to notice?? Probably not and I really don't care if they do because I'm comfortable and happy with what I chose.

Judy in Michigan[/quote]

You of course will be fine.

I'm not sure most of the folks who have post here would be considered a typical cruiser.

Despite what you read out here most folks follow the spirt if not the letter of the dress code...and look very nice doing it.

And remember...everyone is dressed up on the boards:D

[FinelyCruising]

[quote name='Coco Creek']
My god, we are now discussing dress code on an airplane :confused: . Who cares? [/QUOTE]

One of the amazing things about listening is that among pages of banter, there can be somehting new learned.

I learned something in that I never knew there was a dress code on the books for air travel.

I enjoy learning something new. :)

[Shipyard Cruiser]

[quote name='FinelyCruising']One of the amazing things about listening is that among pages of banter, there can be somehting new learned.

I learned something in that I never knew there was a dress code on the books for air travel.

I enjoy learning something new. :)[/quote]

Maybe the airline can find a way to make money from a dress code.

United already is working on it:D

[Pontius Navigator]

[quote name='bububr']Most if not all dress codes are established to address the MINIMUM requirements, not anything above or beyond unless it is specifically stated.

Its almost always acceptable to dress above what is requested especially in the cases of special occasions; birthdays, anniversaries...etc.

I can remember one example after attending a wedding ( with HORRIBLE food ), on the way back we were so hungry we stopped at a Chili's. Everyone was in jeans, lots of families and here we were in our tuxes......We got a few looks....so we did take the ties off and unbutton our collars, but we didn't feel totally out of place.

Dave:eek:[/quote]

In your example you were not dressing above the requirements; by taking off ties and unbuttoning collars you were attempting to soften your image and dress down.

By the same token, someone wearing white tie, tails and decorations would look very grand but would be OTT - over the top - for a mere Tuxedo do.

We used to frequent our local greasey spoon truck-stop but we never dressed down. It would have been totally improper to undo our bow ties, unbutton our waistcoats or even remove our Mess jackets. No stares fro the clientel; they were quite used to us.

[excitedofharpenden]

[quote name='Shipyard Cruiser']

I'm not sure most of the folks who have post here would be considered a typical cruiser.

[/quote]
I resemble that remark:)

Phil