Tipping and Automatic gratuity

[camNaud]

Always a hot subject on these boards. Do what you think is best, based on how you percieve the service.

[djhsolara]

This is code for "We charge 90% of the fare up front and the other 10% after you board the ship."

 

I would say that I agree with this. I am going to be totally honest and up front here. I completely feel that the people who work in the service part of the ships work very hard and I do not know how well they are compensated, but I have a feeling it is not very well. The reason that I am saying this is (and I am not a racist by any means but there is no better way to say this) that if these were high-paying jobs, why aren't they filled by Americans rather than by people from more under-developed locales. I don't ever hear of people saying that their waiters or stewards were from Nebraska or Texas, etc.

 

Having said that, I'm also going to flip the other side of the coin. The cruise director said that the $10 hotel service charge per day is broken down something like 35% to the waiter, 35% to the cabin steward and the remaining 30% to those behind the scenes. I'm not sure if these are the correct percentages, however they are close. We did some math on the cruise...if you take this into consideration we calculated the following (and I know this calculation is making some assumptions, but it is what it is): Our waiter at dinner was serving approximately 20 people at our sitting, which means that if he served both sittings he served 40 people for the night. This calculates out to $140 in tips for that night (now considering the meals that he is serving and if you would price them out in a land restaurant in the US, that would probably be a bit low). That calculates out to $980 in tips for the cruise (7 night - 1 week). If you annualize this it comes out to $50,960. I'm not in an industry that relies on tips, but to me that is a heck of a lot of $$ just in tips...and then you have his salary on top of that.

 

Now I've traveled often and have stayed in hotels ranging from the "dixie dump" to the Ritz Carlton. Perhaps I'm cheap, however I have never tipped $7.00 per day (for two of us) to my room staff.

 

Regarding the Behind the Scenes people. They mentioned these people as being the people who bake the bread, the people who do the laundry, the people who change the water in the pool, etc. Once again, perhaps I'm cheap, but I don't know the last time I was in a restaurant and said "I'd like you to give this tip to the person who baked the bread" or the last time I was in a hotel and said "I'd like to tip the person who changed the water in the pool." These are people who work behind the scenes and in no other industry am I asked to tip them...so why would I do so on a ship?

 

Like I said, I'm being totally honest and you can think whatever you want about me after reading this, but we lowered our daily hotel service charge on our last sailing in December and we tipped personally. I know it is a convenience thing, but I have decided that going forward I will have the hotel service charge totally removed from my account and I will go around and tip accordingly.

 

As a passenger it is not my responsibility to pay the salary of the persons working on the ship via a hotel service charge. That is what my cruise fare should be paying. I'm wondering when it will come to pass that there will be an entrance fee for the entertainment. It seems that these people are paid enough because none of the hotel service charge goes to them (unless it is part of the behind the scenes charge).

[Momee]

I will get heat for agreeing with you but I do agree in everything you said. You said it well and with education behind you.

[prescottbob]

Ahoy!

 

Do what meets your comfort level. No 'grades' or expectations here.

 

It's only money.

 

Tip : Have a Wonderfull Cruise!

 

Bon Voyage & Good Health!

Bob:) ("Tipless in Arizona")

[bUU]

As a passenger it is not my responsibility to pay the salary of the persons working on the ship via a hotel service charge. That is what my cruise fare should be paying.

It makes no difference whether we pay it altogether in the cruise fare or via cruise fare + hotel service charge. It's the same amount of money, so it is just a matter of whether or not you psyche yourself out about how it is charged or not.

[djhsolara]

It makes no difference whether we pay it altogether in the cruise fare or via cruise fare + hotel service charge. It's the same amount of money, so it is just a matter of whether or not you psyche yourself out about how it is charged or not.

 

Maybe it is just a psychological thing...but I would rather that the fare be increased by the amount of the hotel service charge. My take is that the 90% that we pay before going on the cruise is the fare that is needed and the 10% is what is negotiable. I would rather just pay 100% of the fare up front and then have a policy in place that states "no tipping necessary because your tips have been included in your fare."

[Palms2Pines2Sea]

The simple economic truth is that the Service charge that we pay enables the cruise company to pay a salary or hourly wage that is far below minimum wage. This is called "tip credit" and was lobbied for and established by the hospitality industry many years ago. Though not allowed in certain states (California is one), it is prevalent throughout the industry. As long as the employee makes an hourly wage that equals or exceeds minimum wage from tips (or share of "service charge") received, then the employer may pay that employee an hourly rate of less than minimum wage. And all of that is, as they say, just business!

[jtl513]

The cruise director said that the $10 hotel service charge per day is broken down something like 35% to the waiter, 35% to the cabin steward and the remaining 30% to those behind the scenes. I'm not sure if these are the correct percentages, however they are close.

You got it almost right. 35% goes not to "the waiter", but the dining room "wait team" - waiter, assistant waiter, and area head waiter. I'm not positive on this, but I think the waiter gets 20%, the assistant 10% and the area/head waiter 5%. On the Zuiderdam there are 51 waiters for 1848 passengers, or 36 pax/waiter on the average. That gives each waiter $2 x 36 people = $72 per day, and the assistant $36. On the Zuiderdam there are 8 head waiters for the same 1848 passengers, or 231 passengers each. 231 x $0.50 (5%) = $115 per day.

 

Our cabin steward on the Zuiderdam said he had 15 cabins. 30 people x $3.50 each is $105 per day ... about $10/hour.

 

Those are not great wages by American standards, but quite good for the Indonesian standard of living.

[RustaRoo]

I know it is a convenience thing, but I have decided that going forward I will have the hotel service charge totally removed from my account and I will go around and tip accordingly.

You are certain welcome to do that but understand that none of the people you tip can keep it; all money received from those who 'opt out' goes into a tipping pool. I'm merely pointing this out as an FYI and totally without judgement:)

[dakrewser]

I would say that I agree with this. I am going to be totally honest and up front here. I completely feel that the people who work in the service part of the ships work very hard and I do not know how well they are compensated, but I have a feeling it is not very well. The reason that I am saying this is (and I am not a racist by any means but there is no better way to say this) that if these were high-paying jobs, why aren't they filled by Americans rather than by people from more under-developed locales. I don't ever hear of people saying that their waiters or stewards were from Nebraska or Texas, etc.

 

Becausze Americans are really bad at service jobs. One of the major problems with NCL's Hawaiian ships was the American crew and their really bad service.

[bUU]

Maybe it is just a psychological thing...but I would rather that the fare be increased by the amount of the hotel service charge.

And please understand, I think most folks would, but personal preferences, even that of the majority, don't matter; what matters is personal behavior: What do people do in response to the various alternatives. A lot of us see chocolate and must eat it, to excess too often. Our preference would be for the temptation to be provided to us in direct proportion to how much we should eat, but the folks who purvey chocolate know that they can do better for themselves if they tempt us as often as they can. :)

[djhsolara]

You got it almost right. 35% goes not to "the waiter", but the dining room "wait team" - waiter, assistant waiter, and area head waiter. I'm not positive on this, but I think the waiter gets 20%, the assistant 10% and the area/head waiter 5%. On the Zuiderdam there are 51 waiters for 1848 passengers, or 36 pax/waiter on the average. That gives each waiter $2 x 36 people = $72 per day, and the assistant $36. On the Zuiderdam there are 8 head waiters for the same 1848 passengers, or 231 passengers each. 231 x $0.50 (5%) = $115 per day.

 

Our cabin steward on the Zuiderdam said he had 15 cabins. 30 people x $3.50 each is $105 per day ... about $10/hour.

 

Those are not great wages by American standards, but quite good for the Indonesian standard of living.

 

 

I understand what you're saying here...but are you also saying that these people are not paid other than by the hotel service charge? I thought that the $10/hour was their tip. And even at $105 per day and considering that these people probably don't usually see too many days off...this translates to approximately $38000 a year. Even if this is a tip, that seems to me to be quite a nice amount of money in tips. I cannot think of too many people in land hotels that make $38000 in tips a year (unless I'm totally out of touch with reality here).

 

Does anyone have any idea how much the people on the ships are paid as a wage?

[djhsolara]

You got it almost right. 35% goes not to "the waiter", but the dining room "wait team" - waiter, assistant waiter, and area head waiter. I'm not positive on this, but I think the waiter gets 20%, the assistant 10% and the area/head waiter 5%. On the Zuiderdam there are 51 waiters for 1848 passengers, or 36 pax/waiter on the average. That gives each waiter $2 x 36 people = $72 per day, and the assistant $36. On the Zuiderdam there are 8 head waiters for the same 1848 passengers, or 231 passengers each. 231 x $0.50 (5%) = $115 per day.

 

Our cabin steward on the Zuiderdam said he had 15 cabins. 30 people x $3.50 each is $105 per day ... about $10/hour.

 

Those are not great wages by American standards, but quite good for the Indonesian standard of living.

 

 

I understand what you're saying here...but are you also saying that these people are not paid other than by the hotel service charge? I thought that the $10/hour was their tip. And even at $105 per day and considering that these people probably don't usually see too many days off...this translates to approximately $38000 a year. Even if this is a tip, that seems to me to be quite a nice amount of money in tips. I cannot think of too many people in land hotels that make $38000 in tips a year (unless I'm totally out of touch with reality here).

 

Does anyone have any idea how much the people on the ships are paid as a wage?

[dakrewser]

I understand what you're saying here...but are you also saying that these people are not paid other than by the hotel service charge? I thought that the $10/hour was their tip. And even at $105 per day and considering that these people probably don't usually see too many days off...this translates to approximately $38000 a year. Even if this is a tip, that seems to me to be quite a nice amount of money in tips. I cannot think of too many people in land hotels that make $38000 in tips a year (unless I'm totally out of touch with reality here).

 

Does anyone have any idea how much the people on the ships are paid as a wage?

 

What difference does it make? When I tip someone for providing good service, I rarely ask them how much salary they make before calculating how much to tip...

[dakrewser]

Maybe it is just a psychological thing...but I would rather that the fare be increased by the amount of the hotel service charge. My take is that the 90% that we pay before going on the cruise is the fare that is needed and the 10% is what is negotiable. I would rather just pay 100% of the fare up front and then have a policy in place that states "no tipping necessary because your tips have been included in your fare."

 

Won't happen. That would mean that the cruise lines would have to pay commission on that part. That, in turn, would raise the fee. Which would also increase their tax liability. Which would raise the fee yet again - how much more are you willing to pay to ease your psyche?

[booklady26]

[quote name='NoNoNanette']I don't understand the problem here. Personally, I enjoy tipping. It makes me feel good to brighten someone's day.

Why should it matter to anyone how I choose to tip?

To each his/her own.

I'll get flamed for this, but it's too easy to use these declarations in order to justify being a cheapskate.

Furthermore, I've never "offended" anyone by slipping them cash, a word of thanks and a genuine smile. To think otherwise is delusional.[/quote]

To each his own? Then why assume that one who does not agree with additional tipping is a cheapskate?

[ansjefitnes]

I don't know in which year you tipped 50.000 rupiah but it is not 20 dollars but 6,50 dollars

[noblepa]

[quote name='djhsolara']Regarding the Behind the Scenes people. They mentioned these people as being the people who bake the bread, the people who do the laundry, the people who change the water in the pool, etc. Once again, perhaps I'm cheap, but I don't know the last time I was in a restaurant and said "I'd like you to give this tip to the person who baked the bread" or the last time I was in a hotel and said "I'd like to tip the person who changed the water in the pool." These are people who work behind the scenes and in no other industry am I asked to tip them...so why would I do so on a ship?[/quote]

Its been a long time since I worked in a restaurant. When I was in high school, I worked as a busboy and dishwasher in several rather nice restaurants, not McD's. In every case, the waiters/waitresses were REQUIRED to split their tips with the kitchen staff. I think it was usually 50 percent of what they picked up off the tables went to the "behind the scenes" staff, like me. Even as a dishwasher, I got a small cut, perhaps 5 percent. At the time, I received minimum wage PLUS tips. Now, the minimum wage laws provide for a lower wage for tipped workers. I believe that the federal law allows tipped workers, such as waiters to be paid as little as $2.00 per hour, compared to about $6.00 for non-tipped workers.

Sounds awfully familiar, doesn't it? This is exactly what the cruise lines are doing.

I'm pretty sure that this is still done by most restaurants. But, like I said, its been a long time since I worked in one.

[NoNoNanette]

[quote name='booklady26']To each his own? Then why assume that one who does not agree with additional tipping is a cheapskate?[/quote]

Because I don't BEGRUDGE people on a public forum for their tipping habits.

I like to tip.

I don't care if you tip.

If, however, you whine about my tipping, refer to it as "offensive", etc., chances are you might be a cheapskate who is copping out...

To each his own.:rolleyes:

[KAKcruiser]

I don't know how someone who leaves a $10 per day gratuity in place can be called a cheapskate.

[cccole]

I questioned the automatic tip a couple months back because I did not want it to go to anyone who really couldn't give a s___. And..... basically I received responses that I cannot remove one or two people from my tip but must remove the entire automatic tip or leave it in. So......the only alternative to removing the entire tip is to bring extra money to give to those who make your cruise very enjoyable as ROZ, Tamp Girl, and NoNoNanette have said.

Not all of us, like Aloha Pride, are from areas where we can bring gifts that would be really appreciated by the crew instead of money. But that is a great alternative.

And...there was a comment about crew members talking about those who bribe and overtip, but I am sure there are as many crew conversations about those who are rude, obnoxious, arrogant and take the kindness and professionalism of the crew for granted.

As previously said.....tipping is personal. I will be bringing cash with me on our February cruise for those that are extraordinary and I hope that they get to keep it.

Cherie

p.s. NoNoNanette - was this one that I should have let go in one ear and out the other? Congratulations on Eli's win!!:o

[NoNoNanette]

Cherie, you're doing just fine, baby! ;)

[Jesterscourt]

I'm the one who started this thread, and I have to say, I'm impressed by the intelligent responses and opinions, and I have gained insight that will help us on our next voyage. It seems there are individuals who tip out of genuine kindness, graciousness, and appreciation for an exceptional job, or who simply feel it's the right thing to do for underpaid employees. I have also observed others who are pushy and controlling about tipping in order to guarantee they get the best of everything all the time. This has been type-cast as an American trait that is resented in other countries, and we need to be sensitive to that as well. I agree with the comment to do what is comfortable for you, and "to each his own" as long as we show a little panache and tact about it! I have seen this issue bandied about on other cruise line threads where people became defensive, critical, and nasty. I have seen none of that here, and I think that's what sets Holland America apart from the others....

[thanks_for_the_info]

On Princess and now on HAL, we were told that when you tip someone, they are required to turn that tip over to be put in the "pot" which is then divided for all the employees by a percentage. If they don't turn in the individual tip you hand then, they can be (and are) fired. I hated this policy when I first heard it but as we talked with our senior waiter, an old hand who had started at the bottom and worked his way up and who been under both systems (the new "automatic tips divided equally" and the old "individual tipping"), he said that he prefered the "divided equally" system as the most fair since people who are less visible get a fair share. So I don't complain any more and I don't tip extra anymore; the employees who sign on for the cuise know the rules and agree with them when they sign on. In the case of our senior waiter, he was making many times as much as he would have in Indonesia and had planned his life so that after one more cruise, he and his wife would have enough to open a store and he'd stop cruising and stay home to be a full-time grandfather.

[Tampa Girl]

Something that has struck me while reading all these responses is how we Americans have become so accustomed to inferior service. Examples given in these posts of "extraordinary" services are frequently nothing more than "good" service. Certainly not extraordinary. Sad.