Renaissance revisited?

[myrtlewinston]

Myrtlewinston,

 

You seem to have some insight on this. Based on your post, are you indicating that Oceania, Regent, and Norwegian Cruise Line are in financial trouble?

 

Hi,

 

I'm making no such implication. I'm merely pointing out that others disagree with you regarding Apollo's stability. I'm still curious as to your knowledge of Oceania's balance sheet, since it's both private and does not have publicly-traded bonds.

[LHT28]

Hi oysterdam,

 

Apollo may have substantial capital, but can it retain it?:

 

"Among the major private-equity shops, Apollo Management appears to be in the worst shape. It has invested in a string of poorly performing leveraged buyouts ... Apollo lost $57 million in the first quarter, the most recent period for which its financial information is available ..."

(Barrons, September 1, 2008)

 

.

 

With assets over $16 Billion a $57 million loss in a drop in the bucket

[Paulchili]

With assets over $16 Billion a $57 million loss in a drop in the bucket

 

Sometimes when it rains, it pours and the bucket can fill up pretty quickly..

Just ask TWA, Pan Am, Eastern and others.

[Paulchili]

Or Renaissance?

I hope it does not happen to Oceania, as overall I do like them and do not wish them ill (I also have a cruise booked for Dec 09).

[skybarshrek]

It does happen !

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article4744384.ece

[Paulchili]

It does happen !

 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article4744384.ece

 

Scary stuff, indeed!

[Suite Travels]

TWA was taken over by American Airlines. TWA was in BK over the years but managed to survive. TWA still had cash on hand to operate. AA forced TWA to file a technical BK in order for them to defer debt to the lessors and to get rid of Carl Ichan's Caribou agreement.

 

Eastern and Pan Am went chapt 7 a whole different story.

[Paulchili]

TWA was taken over by American Airlines. TWA was in BK over the years but managed to survive. TWA still had cash on hand to operate. AA forced TWA to file a technical BK in order for them to defer debt to the lessors and to get rid of Carl Ichan's Caribou agreement.

 

Eastern and Pan Am went chapt 7 a whole different story.

 

What's your point?

What difference does it make how they disappeared? They are gone, aren't they?

There are many ways to go "under".

If Oceania went under, in whichever chapter, 7 or 11 (and I hope they don't) how would it help us?

[LHT28]

This thread is starting to remind me of "Chicken Little":D

 

 

Enjoy

[Paulchili]

This thread is starting to remind me of "Chicken Little":D

 

 

Enjoy

 

Tell it to those 85,000 British tourists who are stranded abroad. I bet you are happy not to be one of them.I am not saying that Oceania is in imminent danger. No single business entity is immune from the current economical reality as they are all connected in some way and depend upon each other. There will be many corpses littering the road to recovery, including several airlines and possibly some cruise lines.

Let's hope Oceania is not one of them.

[capecodder2]

I can't believe this thread is going on and on, or over and over the same territory - and here I am perpetuating it! Yikes! I think this little group of people should definitely book on another cruise line where you will be "safe". Maybe then the rest of us will not have to book our Oceania cruise when the books open to be sure to get the cabin we want. Bon Voyage

[myrtlewinston]

With assets over $16 Billion a $57 million loss in a drop in the bucket

 

Make that $40B of assets under management. However, what is more crucial than Apollo's 1Q loss is the fact that they own a number of over-leveraged companies in economically sensitive sectors.

 

P.S. I may be angry with Oceania and am seeking redress, but I wish them no ill will.

[LHT28]

Tell it to those 85,000 British tourists who are stranded abroad. .

No one is happy when a business fails.

Especially when people are stranded away from home.

[world~citizen]

Oceania's balance sheet is strong and is backed by a well financed ownership group. They are a very stable company.

 

If you have concerns about their financial stability, buy travel insurance that covers supplier default as well as pay by credit card.

 

What ownership group and what insurance company would that be - never mind the banks. Is anybody solvent anymore?

[tlmlb]

The current credit crisis and stock market volatility have had a negative effect on all private equity firms. The treasury dept. explored the possibility of private equity helping to provide credit access / liquidity durng the current situation but found it lacking. You think Apollo is immune to the credit crunch??

 

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/13/news/companies/apollo_boyd813.fortune/

 

this is a very telling article...I have to congratulate Oceania vs. Ren....they sold to apollo at a better time than now...they didn't take a fatal blow this time around...but stay tuned...

[Paulchili]

The current credit crisis and stock market volatility have had a negative effect on all private equity firms. The treasury dept. explored the possibility of private equity helping to provide credit access / liquidity durng the current situation but found it lacking. You think Apollo is immune to the credit crunch??

 

http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/13/news/companies/apollo_boyd813.fortune/

 

this is a very telling article...I have to congratulate Oceania vs. Ren....they sold to apollo at a better time than now...they didn't take a fatal blow this time around...but stay tuned...

 

See my post # 28 above - when it rains.......

In this case I do not wish to be right.

[St. Louis]

Yes he is, according to an Oceana 2007 press release.

 

I don't know if he was part of the things that went right or went wrong with Renaissance. He certainly wasn't there at the end. Its financial advisers read like a who's who of the current financial crisis.

 

Nevertheless, I ask these questions because it seems to have an interesting business model. The wine stewards, for example, apparently don't work for the line but for a company that contracts to do that end of the business for Oceana. It seems to be a modern company that does things in modern ways - which was the claim to fame of Renaissance.

 

Again, I am likely to try it out on either a Black Sea or Greek islands cruise - that is if feedback here continues to encourage me in that direction.

 

As I say, trying a new line always gives one a bit of the jitters.

 

Smooth sailing...

 

Frank DelRio was at Renaissance four months before it went under. So I should say he was definitely "there at the end" as far as responsibility goes. They couldn't have fallen apart in four mos after he left. And he probably left for a reason = they were going under. And yes, he is the CEO for Oceania. As far as those who say the same couldn't happen to O because it is well run, succesful, etc. -- guess what? That's what they said about Renaissance. As one who lost over $2,000 when Renaissance went bankrupt, I would question any line that had the same CEO as Renaissance (and glowing reviews).

[St. Louis]

This thread is starting to remind me of "Chicken Little":D

 

 

Enjoy

 

I wish someone had played "Chicken Little" and warned me about Renaissance Cruise Lines going bankrupt before I lost my money and cruise.

[tlmlb]

Apollo was founded by Leon Black who worked at Drexel, Burnam, Lambert...hope they have learned something...

[Paulchili]

This thread is starting to remind me of "Chicken Little":D

 

Enjoy

 

 

What a difference 3 short weeks make!

This is the one time I did not want to be right ("sometimes when it rains, it pours...")

Let's hope we get out of this mess somehow - the sooner, the better.

[hondorner]

Fascinating to read one of these threads from the past (2008), that I just happened to stumble upon while searching for something else.

 

In those days, Apollo was heading for bankruptcy, Oceania would follow Renaissance, the sky was falling...

 

What a difference today! Oceania is larger and better than ever and about to get another ship, Apollo is still around and kicking and still a big part of Oceania, FDR is now the CEO of the third largest cruise company -- yet there are still conspiracy theories .:rolleyes:

[Mura]

You always have a few jitters when you book with a new line. I am very mindful that these are the old R ships, and that half the ownership of this line is from Renaissance. Now that line failed because it deserved to. I never booked an R cruise because when I spoke with their reps, the company didn't pass the sniff test - and what they did to their passengers at the end was in fact rotten.

 

I am puzzled by what you say is rotten treatment of the passengers at the end. I know some people who were on board when 9/11 happened and they were able to stay on board the ship (since no new passengers could arrive) until they were able to get home, which took several days.

 

The bankruptcy certainly negatively impacted some passengers who were already paid up for cruises that would never happen, but that was hardly the fault of Renaissance. People who had travel insurance that covered bankruptcy were okay, as were we -- in our case we had paid a deposit but final payment wasn't due for a week or two, and American Express refunded our deposit.

 

We loved Renaissance ourselves, so I'm taken somewhat aback by your severe comments. Yes, they sold fares at all levels and we learned NOT to answer questions that asked us how much we had paid. The scheduling for the cruise-included airfare could be very stressful. (We didn't use their air but heard stories from other passengers.) Their business model wasn't perfect by any means.

 

If Renaissance "deserved" to fail it's because they built too many ships too fast ... that's my opinion, not an assertion of fact! Meeting with their bankers on 9/12 was also unfortunate timing (to say the least).

 

I hope the comments of others will reassure you about Oceania's stability. If they haven't, it's more your loss. But it's your loss to choose! No cruise line suits everybody, and maybe it wouldn't be a good fit with you.

 

Mura

[LHT28]

Don interesting to look back but now you have opened the can of worms again 7 yrs later :D

 

Going for popcorn

[Mura]

Who, me?????

 

M

[orchestrapal]

I am puzzled by what you say is rotten treatment of the passengers at the end. I know some people who were on board when 9/11 happened and they were able to stay on board the ship (since no new passengers could arrive) until they were able to get home, which took several days.

We loved Renaissance ourselves, so I'm taken somewhat aback by your severe comments. Yes, they sold fares at all levels and we learned NOT to answer questions that asked us how much we had paid. The scheduling for the cruise-included airfare could be very stressful. (We didn't use their air but heard stories from other passengers.) Their business model wasn't perfect by any means.

If Renaissance "deserved" to fail it's because they built too many ships too fast ... that's my opinion, not an assertion of fact! Meeting with their bankers on 9/12 was also unfortunate timing (to say the least).

I hope the comments of others will reassure you about Oceania's stability. If they haven't, it's more your loss. But it's your loss to choose! No cruise line suits everybody, and maybe it wouldn't be a good fit with you.

 

We also lover Ren. And we're very sorry to see them fail. No smoking and no children policy was the best in the business IMHO. Now we love O and hope they have nothing but wonderful future years.