"Class Wars" on the ships--Diamond+ folk, Carnival haters, etc

[mikeerdas]

In another thread on whether to tip porters at Port Canaveral (even though signs explicitly state it's not necessary), I realized something. People from all walks of life cruise RCI ships; perhaps more than a few upper-class folk (whether from old or new money).

 

One person cited as justification for tipping the porters that he or she tipped well all around--e.g. tipped a guy who mowed his or her lawn for 3 summers a brand new car (what's the least expensive new car one can get these days--~USD 15K?). That's some tip. Must be great to be blessed that well (whether starting on third base or otherwise) to tip that generously. We should all be so fortunate.

 

Anyway... I'm an IT professional. I have a Masters degree. And I don't look, dress, or speak like a bubba. I consider myself educated and middle class--haven't gotten that PhD yet, but considered it.

 

Are all the debates about RCI vs. Carnival coming predominantly from upper-class Diamond and Diamond+ members? Are most diamond and diamond+ members wealthy? Wealthy is a loaded term, because everyone has a different idea of what wealthy is. However, I think it's safe to say if a person regularly stays at the Four Seasons chain of hotels pre-cruise and tips lawn mowers a new car, then they're wealthy enough to qualify by my definition of wealthy.

 

Here's the question: Are most diamond and diamond+ cruisers from the upper echelon of net worth, or is it that they've been cruising for many decades?

 

Every now and then, you hear folks who've cruised both lines state that there's very little difference between these two mass market lines. With the exception of decor, I suspect they're probably right (looking forward to trying one of the newer Carnival ships). In other words, their concerns (formality, having the "correct" decor, etc) are not mine.

 

I once sat at a table in the MDR with two "power couples." They'd obviously done well in life and were happily chattering about their many conquests. I couldn't have felt more uncomfortable. Ever since then, I now request a table for two in the MDR. It's wonderful for those who've inherited great sums or built great empires. But I'd rather not spend my cruise vacation in the company of such folk--not if they intend to flaunt it (some of the most wealthy folks are the least conspicuous about it).

 

Anyway, one tenet I live by is "consider the source" when soliciting info from others. Everyone has a unique perspective shaped by their station in life, their experiences, etc. And some groups of people have similar opinions based on similar life experiences.

 

I wonder if it's mostly rich folk who hate Carnival. To be fair, I should be posting this on the Carnival board. Obviously, people here love RCI or they wouldn't be posting (unless they're RCI-hating trolls who delight in nothing else but stirring the pot). I have nothing against people with trust funds and those who've achieved great things monetarily in life. But again, I want to "consider the source" when collecting opinions to put things in their proper context, e.g. are Carnival-haters self-selecting folk to who choice of decor puts their knickers in a terrible twist? "Vegas style abomination" seems to come up quite often in critiques of Carnival. As a cruiser who's mostly interested in what's on offer in various ports, I just have to laugh--and that's my bias. I'm not so concerned about the ship's decor. More about the itinerary.

 

Mike

[mikeerdas]

Just posted a link to the current thread in the Carnival forums:

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=20153969#post20153969

 

All part of "consider the source."

[cruisin from florida]

We're Diamond on RCCL... Been cruising for over 20 years. Just back from our 3rd or 4th (I think) Carnival cruise. Had a great time.

 

Count us in the "there's just not that much difference" crowd.

 

SAME Shops on Board

SAME Park West stuff

SAME Casinos

SAME ubiquitous camera people taking your picture to sell it to you later.

SAME wonderful service from room stewards and dining room staff.

SAME silly pool games

 

From what some folks write, you'd think that RCCL is the QE2, and Carnival is the Minnow.

 

We are not wealthy. Firmly 2-income college-educated middle-class.

[amybear912]

I don't think of it as a "money" issue, I see it as a class (as in character) issue...

 

Look at it this way: If it were about money, wouldn't those who have an abundance be sailing on a more upper-crust line like Crystal or whatever??? Seriously, if you were very wealthy, why on earth would you choose a mass-market line???

 

I had a similar experience to yours on our first ever cruise... we were seated with 2 other couples, one was our age and they spent each meal bragging about what they had (their own business, their cars, where they shop, etc)... they kept trying to meet up with us for drinks or excursions throughout the cruise but we were so turned off by their constant material tally sheet that we conveniently made other plans or just downright ditched them whenever we could... Dinner was more than enough time to spend with these people... they had nothing else to offer to a conversation than to talk about what they had and compare it to others...

 

If the only thing you have to talk about is what you have, you're just not an interesting person and I can't be bothered to deal with you...

 

Anyway, I don't think it's "rich folk" who hate Carnival... I think they are actually people who believe they have more than they really do... and like to put on an air of pretention.

[Motorman23]

Mike, interesting observation.

 

My family (DW, 2 DD now grown) are now diamond and have cruised on both RCCL and Carnival. We just got our diamond status last Nov and looked forward to enjoying the CL Perk on our 2 week Panama Canal Cruise in Oct. I must say I am disappointed I won't be able to get my free drinks in the CL on Serenade but didn't loose any sleep over it. Why do I tell you this you may ask? Well, although we are now diamond we never felt we were any more important then the others who were on the ships. We cruise to enjoy the time relaxing and sharing ports with others. It wasn't about promoting who we are or what we are to others, it was about having a good time with family and friends. I think people who spend enormous time telling others how important they or their family are usually have issues that they need to make themselves feel better about. We have had various types of people talk to us at dinner or at events on ships and we just take it all with a grain of salt. We don't let it bother us.

 

Regarding the class discussions of Carnival vs RCCL, sure we have observed what you said but again, we are on a cruise that is appropriately priced and we had fun. Who cares about classifying people, we don't. We have met some real "beauties" on both RCCL and Carnival. I say, cruise to enjoy yourself, if you are worried about the "class" of people you will be with, your price for the cruise may become very expensive.

 

Mike

[ondeckatsea]

I know how you feel and we will be looking for cruises and considering them on other lines. We are Diamond Crown and Anchor because we stayed with Royal Caribbean mostly because of the benefits given us, certainly not because of our income, and because it seems to suit us. It took us a long time to reach Diamond. Most of the other Diamond cruisers we've met over the years are middle class. I think the really rich, whether new or old money gravitate to the "exclusive" lines like Crystal or Cunard. If they are bragging on Royal Caribbean they would be the exception. Of the 18 or so cruises we've taken there has only been one table that I could say wasn't all that friendly. Most of the time we don't even know what these tablemates do for a living much less care. We haven't tried Carnival because people we've cruised with tell us it is more geared to younger people. We haven't tried Holland America Lines because we've heard it is geared mostly to elderly. We could very well be wrong about both lines. We will have to find out for ourselves. "They" say Costa is for the Europeans and has a lot of smokers everywhere. NCL "they" say is budget (not a bad thing) and very casual. My advice is to try the different cruiselines until you find the perfect fit.

[Mark_K]

In another thread on whether to tip porters at Port Canaveral (even though signs explicitly state it's not necessary), I realized something. People from all walks of life cruise RCI ships; perhaps more than a few upper-class folk (whether from old or new money).

 

One person cited as justification for tipping the porters that he or she tipped well all around--e.g. tipped a guy who mowed his or her lawn for 3 summers a brand new car (what's the least expensive new car one can get these days--~USD 15K?). That's some tip. Must be great to be blessed that well (whether starting on third base or otherwise) to tip that generously. We should all be so fortunate.

 

Anyway... I'm an IT professional. I have a Masters degree. And I don't look, dress, or speak like a bubba. I consider myself educated and middle class--haven't gotten that PhD yet, but considered it.

 

Are all the debates about RCI vs. Carnival coming predominantly from upper-class Diamond and Diamond+ members? Are most diamond and diamond+ members wealthy? Wealthy is a loaded term, because everyone has a different idea of what wealthy is. However, I think it's safe to say if a person regularly stays at the Four Seasons chain of hotels pre-cruise and tips lawn mowers a new car, then they're wealthy enough to qualify by my definition of wealthy.

 

Here's the question: Are most diamond and diamond+ cruisers from the upper echelon of net worth, or is it that they've been cruising for many decades?

 

Every now and then, you hear folks who've cruised both lines state that there's very little difference between these two mass market lines. With the exception of decor, I suspect they're probably right (looking forward to trying one of the newer Carnival ships). In other words, their concerns (formality, having the "correct" decor, etc) are not mine.

 

I once sat at a table in the MDR with two "power couples." They'd obviously done well in life and were happily chattering about their many conquests. I couldn't have felt more uncomfortable. Ever since then, I now request a table for two in the MDR. It's wonderful for those who've inherited great sums or built great empires. But I'd rather not spend my cruise vacation in the company of such folk--not if they intend to flaunt it (some of the most wealthy folks are the least conspicuous about it).

 

Anyway, one tenet I live by is "consider the source" when soliciting info from others. Everyone has a unique perspective shaped by their station in life, their experiences, etc. And some groups of people have similar opinions based on similar life experiences.

 

I wonder if it's mostly rich folk who hate Carnival. To be fair, I should be posting this on the Carnival board. Obviously, people here love RCI or they wouldn't be posting (unless they're RCI-hating trolls who delight in nothing else but stirring the pot). I have nothing against people with trust funds and those who've achieved great things monetarily in life. But again, I want to "consider the source" when collecting opinions to put things in their proper context, e.g. are Carnival-haters self-selecting folk to who choice of decor puts their knickers in a terrible twist? "Vegas style abomination" seems to come up quite often in critiques of Carnival. As a cruiser who's mostly interested in what's on offer in various ports, I just have to laugh--and that's my bias. I'm not so concerned about the ship's decor. More about the itinerary.

 

Mike

I don't think you can pin it down to one demographic - either to the D/D+ or the Carnival bashers. Obviously, not many who cruise a lot are poor, but other than that there's a lot of variance. For some it's a long accumlation, for some it's frequent cruises (and the money to do that), for others it's just a matter of putting a high priority on it for their disposable income.

 

As far as the "power couples", I'd ignore it and I certainly wouldn't make it cause me to get tables for two. You're missing out on a lot of good conversation with nice people. Whenever I run into people like that, I start with the basic premise that if they're that rich they probably wouldn't be sailing on Royal Caribbean, and it's most likely just talk. I've encountered people like that, and then you get on the plane and see them sitting in coach just like you.

[BarbaraM]

Here's the question: Are most diamond and diamond+ cruisers from the upper echelon of net worth, or is it that they've been cruising for many decades?

 

I once sat at a table in the MDR with two "power couples." They'd obviously done well in life and were happily chattering about their many conquests. I couldn't have felt more uncomfortable. Ever since then, I now request a table for two in the MDR. It's wonderful for those who've inherited great sums or built great empires. But I'd rather not spend my cruise vacation in the company of such folk--not if they intend to flaunt it (some of the most wealthy folks are the least conspicuous about it).

 

I wonder if it's mostly rich folk who hate Carnival. To be fair, I should be posting this on the Carnival board. Obviously, people here love RCI or they wouldn't be posting (unless they're RCI-hating trolls who delight in nothing else but stirring the pot). I have nothing against people with trust funds and those who've achieved great things monetarily in life. But again, I want to "consider the source" when collecting opinions to put things in their proper context, e.g. are Carnival-haters self-selecting folk to who choice of decor puts their knickers in a terrible twist? "Vegas style abomination" seems to come up quite often in critiques of Carnival. As a cruiser who's mostly interested in what's on offer in various ports, I just have to laugh--and that's my bias. I'm not so concerned about the ship's decor. More about the itinerary.

 

Mike

 

 

Enjoyed your post Mike.

 

I've met diamond + type folks on several cruise lines. Typically they were retired and lived within driving distance of the ports. THey had an inside track on unsold cruises and were able to travel at a moments notice. THey had their cruise luggage packing down to a science. They often got the better cabins not by paying more, but from being "insiders". The cost of their cruise, because they don't require airfare, probably isn't much more than a weekend trip into the city, dining out and seeing a show or a ball game.

 

I laughed when you described your experience in the mdr. There is the whole "big fish in a small pond" thing going on here. IF someone were "wealthy" and "upper class" why the heck are they sailing on Royal Caribbean in the first place?? These are probably the same folks who describe their "station in life" and enjoy having the roped off areas where they can let everyone else know that they are willing to throw down twice as much money for a 7 day cruise than the rest of us!

 

Anyway, my point is that the diamond + people I've met don't always fit into a certain category. But, I have met people you described in your post --

[BND]

While we don't discuss money, our cars, home, etc on cruises, our income is above average even for our area which has a high income average anyway mainly because we both work and are in our late 40's-early 50's which is the peak earning time for most. As you can see from my signature, we've done almost exclusively Carnival. We've met some wonderful people and we've met some not so wonderful people across all income levels. We're trying RCCL because we think we want to try something different. I will tell you there isn't much different between Princess and Carnival, so I'm not expecting much difference when we go on RCCL. We also have friends who are TA's and they all have said, mass market cruises are all basically the same. Now on Cunard or another upscale line, I would expect a different experience and that most onboard would have money because it's much more of a luxury to travel that way.

[Mark_K]

While we don't discuss money, our cars, home, etc on cruises, our income is above average even for our area which has a high income average anyway mainly because we both work and are in our late 40's-early 50's which is the peak earning time for most. As you can see from my signature, we've done almost exclusively Carnival. We've met some wonderful people and we've met some not so wonderful people across all income levels. We're trying RCCL because we think we want to try something different. I will tell you there isn't much different between Princess and Carnival, so I'm not expecting much difference when we go on RCCL. We also have friends who are TA's and they all have said, mass market cruises are all basically the same. Now on Cunard or another upscale line, I would expect a different experience and that most onboard would have money because it's much more of a luxury to travel that way.

Also, it seems like even if all you have while you're raising your kids is just enough money to live comfortably, once they're raised and out of the house suddenly having enough money for a cruise or two a year is not a problem.

[Marie51]

Mike, interesting observation.

 

My family (DW, 2 DD now grown) are now diamond and have cruised on both RCCL and Carnival. We just got our diamond status last Nov and looked forward to enjoying the CL Perk on our 2 week Panama Canal Cruise in Oct. I must say I am disappointed I won't be able to get my free drinks in the CL on Serenade but didn't loose any sleep over it. Why do I tell you this you may ask? Well, although we are now diamond we never felt we were any more important then the others who were on the ships. We cruise to enjoy the time relaxing and sharing ports with others. It wasn't about promoting who we are or what we are to others, it was about having a good time with family and friends. I think people who spend enormous time telling others how important they or their family are usually have issues that they need to make themselves feel better about. We have had various types of people talk to us at dinner or at events on ships and we just take it all with a grain of salt. We don't let it bother us.

 

Regarding the class discussions of Carnival vs RCCL, sure we have observed what you said but again, we are on a cruise that is appropriately priced and we had fun. Who cares about classifying people, we don't. We have met some real "beauties" on both RCCL and Carnival. I say, cruise to enjoy yourself, if you are worried about the "class" of people you will be with, your price for the cruise may become very expensive.

 

Mike

 

You will still be able to get free drinks in the "Diamond Lounge" according to what I have read about it.

[J & G]

Money, class, and IQ all have one thing in common......if you have to tell people you have it, then you don't have enough of it! ;)

[uksimonusa]

You will still be able to get free drinks in the "Diamond Lounge" according to what I have read about it.

 

There is no Diamond Lounge on the Serenade:(

[LHP]

We have not cruise RCCL yet, so I can not speak to what that experience is like.

 

Hubby started cruising with Carnival 27 years ago, when he was single.

 

I believe the "class war" between Carnival and RCCL began with the reputation that Carnival did have when hubby started cruising with them.

 

Putting it bluntly, it was a booze and booty cruise.

 

Over the years, Carnival saw that folks who could afford to cruise were now marrying and having a family....so they "matured" along with their clientele.

 

But in a lot of RCCL folks minds (who have never cruised Carnival)...they are still a booze and booty cruise. And yes, that does still go on...but from dear friends who are double Diamond thingys....short cruises from both lines can produce that kind of clientele.

 

I think the "war" really heated up when Carnival outbid RCCL for Cunard.

The thought of Carnival (with their past reputation) owning Cunard, I believe, really stuck in RCCL's craw.

 

And, of course, since Carnival is the biggest....everyone always wants to knock the top guy off the top.

 

We (as a family) started with Carnival because of Hubby. And we have stayed with it because they are fabulous with our Special Needs Son.

Our 17 year old Special Needs Son just completed his 31st Carnival Cruise.

 

Yes, we are blessed. We can afford to cruise anyone. And yes, sometimes the clientele on Carnival does get a bit tiring. So we (as does our RCCL DD friends) try to deflect that as much as possible by not cruising in the summer, avoiding shorter cruises and being selective about which ports we sail out of.

 

But overall, Carnival has suited our needs. We will now be branching out because (currently) Carnival does not go where we are wanting to go.

 

(British Isles etc)....so Princess will probably be our next try.

 

As for the "table mates" that talk all the time about what they have....

 

my wise Mom once told me...that those who talk the most usually have the least.

 

As an accountant...I can tell you there is a HUGE difference between having "assets" and "net worth". Just because someone has assets...it doesn't mean that they own them.

 

There is book called "The Millionaire Next Door" and is very interesting reading.

[mikeerdas]

Great replies everyone, thank you. Very reasonable. The "big fish in a small pond" concept makes sense to me. I don't know what a Grand Suite or Owner's Suite costs on an RCI ship, but I suspect it's a lot less than the equivalents on Seaborne, Cunard, and Crystal--where the exact same folks might be a "small fish in a big pond."

 

And last I checked, bragging about one's material possessions has always been distasteful. And sure enough could be a good indicator of an otherwise empty head (or at the very least, a not very well rounded one).

 

So... what do the highest cabin tiers typically cost on the luxury lines, say, for a 7 night eastern or western carib, or a 7 night eastern or western med cruise? Anyone ever been curious and checked? What would it be on RCI? $5,000 to $10,000 per person?

 

On the other hand, some of the wealthiest people are some of the most frugal. Especially if they started with nothing. Sam Walton and others could evidently pinch a penny so hard it screams. So even if they are wealthy by anyone's definition, they may enjoy to them what seems to be an extraordinary bargain. Don't rule that out as a reason for the better off to sail RCI rather than lines higher up the luxury chain.

[Aquahound]

I am a Diamond member who is knocking on the D+ door with 21 credits. I am in my low 30's and DW and I have no kids.

 

We live within driving distance of all Florida ports, therefore our cruise rates are substantially cheaper due to the lack of airfare (although, parking is now 15-20 dollars a day :rolleyes:).

 

I do not hate Carnival. The cruise line just does not appeal to me.

[Murphy]

I guess my question is why are you trying to pigeon hole groups into the same bucket? All D+ folk are NOT alike, nor are all above average income folk! Some D+ may have higher than normal income, but others just sail often enough in perhaps the least expensive cabin. Either way, why is there this need to think they are alike at all? Some wealthy folk may travel with family who are more inclined to sail a mass market line... so what? Who cares?

[RevSmith]

First may I say that just because one choses to travel a lot, or even stay in up scale places does not indicate that they are "wealthy" per say. Also the OP stated that most people who are wealthy are very conspicuous, I say that wealthy people come in all shapes sizes, etc. and some or conspicuous while others are very low key and non conspicuious...there are all types of wealthy people. That being said I respond that I do not hate Carnival, it is just not for me. I have found a comfortable niche in four cruise lines: RCI, Princess, Celebrity and Holland American. Carnival is not me, but I am willing to give it another try, in that I have not sailed on the line for years. I am aware that Princess and Holland America are both owned by Carnival, but they are NOT Carnival. So I really don't think it has to do with wealth, it has to do with personal taste.

Thank you for allowing me my opinion. Good question.

Rev

[TexCruise371]

 

As for the "table mates" that talk all the time about what they have....

 

my wise Mom once told me...that those who talk the most usually have the least.

 

As an accountant...I can tell you there is a HUGE difference between having "assets" and "net worth". Just because someone has assets...it doesn't mean that they own them.

 

There is book called "The Millionaire Next Door" and is very interesting reading.

 

I was thinking and getting ready to post exactly the same thing....fascinating reading too. ;)

[aurelius180]

Money, class, and IQ all have one thing in common......if you have to tell people you have it, then you don't have enough of it! ;)

 

That was my thought exactly when the OP mentioned the MDR story. There are a couple partners of my company who are in the top 1% of wealth in the country and you would have no idea if you met them on the street.

[halos]

I truly believe that most people who love cruising, like the variety offered in all lines. I do see posts by RCI loyalists who look down their nose at people who sail Carnival, but there are some Carnival snobs as well. Why these folks feel the need to put down people who enjoy a different line is beyond me, but I try to ignore them.

I do think that the personal-type attacks on CCL cruisers by some RCCL cruisers have left CCL cruisers very defensive and NOT just on these boards either. I've seen it on ships.

OP, if you enjoyed your NCL cruise, you will enjoy Carnival as well. I love both :) I will say that (IMO) Carnival decor is not as beautiful as any RCCL ship...but the odd thing is that once you are on a Farcus' designed ship for a day, the decor magically seems to grow on you. It works somehow.

My first 3 cruises were on Carnival, before I branched out and tried a different line. I have now sailed NCL, CCL, RCCL and X (that is the order in which I prefer them at this point in time) and what I have discovered is that they are all different and this is good. I imagine, for me, sailing the same line all the time might get a bit boring. Princess is next on the list. I'm planning that for fall 2010.

I am in no hurry to have a 'status' on any line. More than likely I'll hit that mark on all lines at once. To me, being 'Diamond' or whatever, isn't worth having to stick with one line all the time. For me personally, variety is great :)

But to each, their own.

[Cushing985]

I saw this question over on the Carnival board and at first I thought it would just be a bunch of snobs knocking Carnival. Not so! There are reasonable people in the world!

 

My wife and I are in the middle class and have cruised both Celebrity and Carnival. Carnival fits us based on price, service and the informality of the line. I must admit I was a bit paranoid about my first Carnival cruise last year on the Glory. I was expecting a bunch of drunks running around and see guys wearing "wife beater" tee-shirts in the MDR. Boy, was I mistaken! The service was great, our fellow passengers were great and our cabin was great. Glory's decorative look wasn't over the top but the Splendor, which we just just on, did take some getting used to. Toward the end of the cruise I just didn't see the pink circles!

 

For those who stated they haven't been on a Carnival ship for a long time I say give it another try. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised!

[masterbaker]

We are Diamond + and are not wealthy. We just have vacations of all kinds high on our priorities. We've met many people in our travels from all levels of wealth. Every once in a while we bump into someone who flaunts and brags on their good fortune, usually followed by our excusing ourselves to speak to someone else or move to another activity or location. We find that kind of conversation very booring. We've also met some really fun and interesting people of wealth that never speak about it. I don't think it has anything to do with what cruiseline, resort or wherever you happen to meet people, you will find both kinds of wealthy people everywhere.

[alexkrn46]

I am a Diamond member who is knocking on the D+ door with 21 credits. I am in my low 30's and DW and I have no kids.

 

We live within driving distance of all Florida ports, therefore our cruise rates are substantially cheaper due to the lack of airfare (although, parking is now 15-20 dollars a day :rolleyes:).

 

I do not hate Carnival. The cruise line just does not appeal to me.

 

Often we have to leave the car at the airport which is $28 dollars a day. We have taken cruises out of Bayonne or NYC and have paid over $210/week and we thought that we a great buy since there is not airfare.

[klingoncruiser]

We are diamond + members and have been cruising for years. As teachers, we have lots of time and while not "rich" (far from poor either) we are willing to put our money in the great value that cruising is. We have sailed 4 lines and prefer all that RCL has to offer. We like the food better and the ships better. Each cruise line has it strengths and weaknesses. We disliked NCL most, I dislike Princess most. (don't like the ship designs and the food) We both have grown to like Celebrity as they seem to be more like the cruising we started with. However, all the cruise lines are changing. We will be trying HAL at some point. I would encourage everyone to try other lines and find one that they like.