Jones Act Violation?

What's the definition of a passenger? "Someone who wants to get from A to B" is not, as most cruises go from A to A. "Someone who doesn't work" is not, as people like to help raise he sails on some ships. "Someone who gets paid for being on the ship" includes people paid for counting birds, and travel agents.

 

Is there some international definition that divides crew or officers from passengers?

Yes, it is anyone who pays for passage, or someone carried not for hire but whose presence does not measurably affect the operation of the vessel (this places corporate "visitors" into the passenger status, as well as "perk" cruises to TA's etc.). People like entertainers who have "guest status" are granted access to passenger areas just like a paying passenger, but they are considered to be crew.

I didn't know any of this and still not sure what it actually means but what about a repositioning cruise. Aren't there cruises that start say in NY or Boston and end in somewhere in Florida for the winter months cruising schedule and vice versa.

I didn't know any of this and still not sure what it actually means but what about a repositioning cruise. Aren't there cruises that start say in NY or Boston and end in somewhere in Florida for the winter months cruising schedule and vice versa.

Yes, there are, but they must meet the requirements of the PVSA for an "open jaw" cruise, and that is to call at a "distant" foreign port. A "distant" foreign port is defined as one not in North or Central America, the Caribbean or Bahamas, Bermuda. So, the "closest" "distant" ports are the "ABC islands" of Aruba, Bonaire, or Curacao, which are considered to be in South America. Panama canal cruises that go from Florida to California typically stop in either the ABC's or Cartagena, Colombia.

For the OP, you could even switch ships on the same day in Vancouver. Our son has done that between two Princess ships. We have done the two day stay in Vancouver between different Princess ships. Basically you can't go between two US ports without a South American port in between on the same ship.

 

And you can't get away with not boarding in Vancouver but meeting the ship in Victoria on it's first stop. Alaska to Vancouver to Victoria to LA on same ship is a no-no even if you don't board in Vancouver. They read this as intentionally trying to get around PVSA.

 

Cruise line will cancel any combination that violates PVSA and may not identify the issue for months after you book it. Lots of discussions here from folks that had that problem and have had back to back cruises cancelled.

Your middle point is incorrect. As long as the cruiseline approves it, and immigration is informed and agrees to have staff at the pier to process the pax, you can board late or disembark early on any cruise. PVSA fines are levied to the vessel, but the violation is based on the *individual passenger* journey. There are many reports on these very boards of folks skipping Vancouver so they can take the clipper Victoria-Seattle, stay on in Victoria a few days etc.

Since US preclearance doesn't happen in Vancouver for ships heading to Victoria, your example would actually be EASIER to achieve than the more common 'get off early in Victoria' version since the whole ship is going to be processed by CBP at the first US port anyway, so no need to arrange anything special in Victoria with government, just for cruise line to be ready to do passenger check-in and take luggage onboard. As long as you don't try to leave your luggage onboard while you're taking the ferry - you have to properly disembark taking all your stuff off the ship (otherwise your luggage would go from Seward - LA, violating Jones Act!)

 

And you can't get away with not boarding in Vancouver but meeting the ship in Victoria on it's first stop. Alaska to Vancouver to Victoria to LA on same ship is a no-no even if you don't board in Vancouver. They read this as intentionally trying to get around PVSA.

 

Cruise line will cancel any combination that violates PVSA and may not identify the issue for months after you book it. Lots of discussions here from folks that had that problem and have had back to back cruises cancelled.

Your middle point is incorrect. As long as the cruiseline approves it, and immigration is informed and agrees to have staff at the pier to process the pax, you can board late or disembark early on any cruise. PVSA fines are levied to the vessel, but the violation is based on the *individual passenger* journey. There are many reports on these very boards of folks skipping Vancouver so they can take the clipper Victoria-Seattle, stay on in Victoria a few days etc.

 

Since US preclearance doesn't happen in Vancouver for ships heading to Victoria, your example would actually be EASIER to achieve than the more common 'get off early in Victoria' version since the whole ship is going to be processed by CBP at the first US port anyway, so no need to arrange anything special in Victoria with government, just for cruise line to be ready to do passenger check-in and take luggage onboard. As long as you don't try to leave your luggage onboard while you're taking the ferry - you have to properly disembark taking all your stuff off the ship (otherwise your luggage would go from Seward - LA, violating Jones Act!)

LeeW is correct that the cruise line will not sell the two cruises, Alaska to Vancouver and Vancouver to LA. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the itinerary is Alaska to Vancouver via Victoria, and Vancouver to LA via Victoria? And the person was to try to get off the first cruise early in Victoria, and then board late on the second leg in Victoria again, a day later? Since you have to purchase the cruises as Alaska to Vancouver, and Vancouver to LA, the cruise line compliance department will not allow these two cruises to be purchased together.

Now, as martincath says, you can get on and off a cruise at any port, with prior approval, and if by some means you were able to purchase the two cruises (probably after a lot of fighting over the phone with the line, and a very long shot at best), then you could do this (get off in Victoria, board again in Victoria a day later) and not violate the PVSA. The problem is getting the cruise line to approve selling the tickets this way.

For the OP, you could even switch ships on the same day in Vancouver. Our son has done that between two Princess ships. We have done the two day stay in Vancouver between different Princess ships. Basically you can't go between two US ports without a South American port in between on the same ship.

 

And you can't get away with not boarding in Vancouver but meeting the ship in Victoria on it's first stop. Alaska to Vancouver to Victoria to LA on same ship is a no-no even if you don't board in Vancouver. They read this as intentionally trying to get around PVSA.

 

Cruise line will cancel any combination that violates PVSA and may not identify the issue for months after you book it. Lots of discussions here from folks that had that problem and have had back to back cruises cancelled.

Would someone please explain how this can affect back to back cruises, which I think of as staying on the ship for an additional cruise. Is there another kind of back to back cruise I'm not aware of?

Thanks for your help.

Margy

Would someone please explain how this can affect back to back cruises, which I think of as staying on the ship for an additional cruise. Is there another kind of back to back cruise I'm not aware of?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Margy

Most here refer to cruises that you get off one ship and onto a different ship as side to side cruises.

Would someone please explain how this can affect back to back cruises, which I think of as staying on the ship for an additional cruise. Is there another kind of back to back cruise I'm not aware of?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Margy

If your two cruises are closed loop cruises, starting and ending in the same port, you are unaffected.

If either cruise begins or ends in a non-US port, you are unaffected.

Would someone please explain how this can affect back to back cruises, which I think of as staying on the ship for an additional cruise. Is there another kind of back to back cruise I'm not aware of?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Margy

At the change of cruise seasons, there are frequently cruises like ones that start in Alaska and end in Vancouver. Then the ship repositions for California coastals, or Hawaii, or a Panama Canal, and the next cruise is Vancouver to San Francisco or LA. So, theoretically, someone could book a cruise from Alaska to Vancouver, and then a second cruise back to back, from Vancouver to LA. Both of the cruises, by themselves, are legal under the PVSA, since they either start or end in a foreign port. However, when combined into a back to back, it becomes illegal as a combined cruise, and the cruise line will not sell this combination of cruises. PVSA violations for back to back cruises most often affect the Alaska/West Coast cruises, not so much the cruises from the Gulf Coast or East Coast.

LeeW is correct that the cruise line will not sell the two cruises, Alaska to Vancouver and Vancouver to LA.

Based on how many folks post about having cruises cancelled on them after booking, cruise lines will absolutely sell combos of cruises that violate PVSA (especially Princess; I have literally lost count of how many passengers I've warned on these boards about future illegal combos so they can get their sh*t together before Princess cancel one of their cruises close to departure). We see it a lot up here because of the seasonal nature of Alaska so ships always moving in and out, risking an illegal B2B combo - I know you're intimately familiar with ship operations and PVSA, but I'm guessing not so much with the IT and call centre customer (lack of) service side;-)

I'm sure they don't WANT to or PLAN to allow non-compliant bookings, but their systems and staff are simply not all set up properly to ensure compliance at time of booking... and I recall at least a few folks who managed to book an otherwise-illegal combo right off the bat by specifying that they would get off early in Victoria (it lead to multiple transfers up the chain of command before they found someone who actually understood PVSA and was able to record they would be disembarking their first cruise early on the system - IIRC it was a Celebrity cruise, because that was also the first time I heard about them having a standard processing fee for allowing early disembarkation).

Correct.

Item 8, continued on Page 6, sub item "h":

Passenger acknowledges that for certain voyages, such as a round-trip voyage

commencing in a United States port, the Passenger must complete the entire

voyage and that failure to do so may result in a fine or other penalty being

assessed by one or more governmental agencies. Passenger hereby agrees to pay

any such fine or penalty imposed because Passenger failed to complete the entire

voyage and to reimburse Carrier in the event it pays such fine or penalty.

 

https://secure.royalcaribbean.com/content/en_US/pdf/CTC_Not_For_BR.pdf

They can put whatever they want in the contract, but good luck actually collecting that money from a passenger! Unless you have a group of dozens or more doing it, the fine isn't going to be big enough for the cruise line to put up with the fight that would have if they tried to collect it from me. Besides, most of those contracts are minimally enforceable when it comes to financial obligations. It's one the for the agreement to be sited with what the cruise line does and does not have to provide a passenger. But once they try and use it to enforce obscure and buried financial obligations, most attorneys would eat them alive.

They can put whatever they want in the contract, but good luck actually collecting that money from a passenger! Unless you have a group of dozens or more doing it, the fine isn't going to be big enough for the cruise line to put up with the fight that would have if they tried to collect it from me. Besides, most of those contracts are minimally enforceable when it comes to financial obligations. It's one the for the agreement to be sited with what the cruise line does and does not have to provide a passenger. But once they try and use it to enforce obscure and buried financial obligations, most attorneys would eat them alive.

Typically, it is charged to the onboard account at the time of disembarkation. No big fight, now if you want to debate the charge with your credit card company, you might get away with it, but the cruise line doesn't forget when you want to book again. I've seen it charged to a surviving spouse whose husband died on the ship (yes, the fine is applied even then) and the cruise line leaves it up to the passenger to apply for the exemption (almost always granted for medical or death cases) and get the fine refunded from CBP.

At the change of cruise seasons, there are frequently cruises like ones that start in Alaska and end in Vancouver. Then the ship repositions for California coastals, or Hawaii, or a Panama Canal, and the next cruise is Vancouver to San Francisco or LA. So, theoretically, someone could book a cruise from Alaska to Vancouver, and then a second cruise back to back, from Vancouver to LA. Both of the cruises, by themselves, are legal under the PVSA, since they either start or end in a foreign port. However, when combined into a back to back, it becomes illegal as a combined cruise, and the cruise line will not sell this combination of cruises. PVSA violations for back to back cruises most often affect the Alaska/West Coast cruises, not so much the cruises from the Gulf Coast or East Coast.

Thanks, chengkp75, for the information. Not likely to affect us, but it's good to know the rules even though our TA is knowledgeable and keeps us out of trouble.

Always happy to see your posts, which we know from experience will be the straight scoop from someone who has lived these issues and will be easy to understand.

Thanks again,

Margy

Would someone please explain how this can affect back to back cruises, which I think of as staying on the ship for an additional cruise. Is there another kind of back to back cruise I'm not aware of?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Margy

One such trip is booking the Adventure of the Seas going from New Jersey to Quebec City and staying on the ship when it goes from Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale (Snowbird Migration Cruise Oct 2018), The Adventure does not go to the ABC Islands.

One such trip is booking the Adventure of the Seas going from New Jersey to Quebec City and staying on the ship when it goes from Quebec City to Ft. Lauderdale (Snowbird Migration Cruise Oct 2018), The Adventure does not go to the ABC Islands.

Thanks. We're still looking forward to meeting you someday - as I remember, you have family in Gainesville. On the cruise where we planned to meet you, we didn't make it to the Meet and Mingle.

Margy

Well, I know I'm in the minority here on CC, but the tens of thousands of US citizens, whose livelihoods, not just their vacations, depend on the PVSA feel differently than you about it "going away".

Not just US citizens. If it wasn’t for the PVSA, the Alaska cruise industry wouldn’t have had any need to use Vancouver as an embarkation point. Our tourism and other support industries wouldn’t be as robust as they are.

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Not just US citizens. If it wasn’t for the PVSA, the Alaska cruise industry wouldn’t have had any need to use Vancouver as an embarkation point. Our tourism and other support industries wouldn’t be as robust as they are.

 

 

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True, but I'll trade the relatively small amount of passenger industry given to Canada by the PVSA for the larger amount of industry that was taken away from Canada by the Jones Act, which was specifically enacted to restrict trade to Alaska from the Canadian ports that were less expensive at the time.

True, but I'll trade the relatively small amount of passenger industry given to Canada by the PVSA for the larger amount of industry that was taken away from Canada by the Jones Act, which was specifically enacted to restrict trade to Alaska from the Canadian ports that were less expensive at the time.

Fair point.

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