When gratuities are no longer gratuities

[FinelyCruising]

Wow, Sabbycat read my mind.

A tip is what I choose to give voluntarily for good service. Pre-paid gratuities are service charges.

 

You can call me cheap or you can call me generous, it doesn't matter because it's my experience I base my tip on.

 

There should be no reason not to use your ship card to add a gratuity to a meal, making it simple to track back to the crew member.

 

I too liked the days of personally extending a personal envelope to the members who looked after us. There was something very intimate about that which is missing in the impersonal current system.

 

I'm all for tipping - it's a pleasure. Can't say the same about service fees :)

 

This cruise line has offered guests the option of two methods to satisfy the conveyance of gratuities:

 

1. The old fashioned way via cash in an envelope.

2. By signing up to have your gratuities added to your ship account.

 

There is a distinct difference between the methods:

 

1. The old fashioned way the guest picks and choses who and how much.

2. The ship account bills all categories of service with a specific fixed amount.

 

In the past year, the change in the gratuity method on Celebrity has increased the minimum amounts and has added additional personnel to those that they identify as recipients.

 

This has resulted in two camps for the most part:

 

1. More have insisted on the old fashioned method.

2. Others have enjoyed the larger simplicity in the ship account method.

 

 

A new initiative has now come into play with Select Dining:

 

1. Gratuities must be paid in advance before boarding. That includes all the additional personnel that the cruise line has deemed recipients.

 

This to me is the most severe of all methods, yet I feel it is a fair arrangement. I get a dining time I prefer, in trade for assurance there is no stiffing of any of the wait staff. Of course there is also the coat-tails ridden by anyone else along the way because I want this dining option and I think that the service *must* be in the best form since I am without recourse for mistakes or failures. So I hope it works out well;)

 

The only other detail to this method is that if I chose Specialty Venues, and I will, I will have already "paid for" every night in the Select DR whether I use it or not for the waiter, Asst, Manager, etc. So it is certainly tilted in their favor and in fact a bit of a nickel and dime double dip.

 

So far none of these things appear to me to be a service charge, but note that for Specialty Dining in the pay for venues, the fee is considered a Service Charge, but of that amount the gratuity is included in the overall amount and I seem to keep on booking these venues and I find the evening a nicer event for the choice.

 

I also prefer the convenience of the cash less method, and frequently make sure I have the bills to offer to those who I find went out of their way.

[kitty9]

If you increase fares to include the tip amount, the increase would have to be more than the actual tip amount. The travel agent gets a comission on the cruise fare so the increase to include tips would also have to include the agents commission on that amount - granted it might not be that much more - but on a longer cruise it coud mean an extra drink or two. I personally like the ability to tip in cash the amount that I feel the staff deserves - I do not like the tips to be added to my account.

I can understand why tips for open dining would have to be prepaid - under traditional dining, you have the same waiter each night. For open dining, you will probably have a different waiter each night (unless you request and get the same waiter).

 

The mandated gratuity could be added on to the price just like the port taxes and fees are added. But cruise lines need to stop what I call "false advertising" when it comes to their fares. They all used to include the port fees in the total cost listed on line or in their brochures, but they no longer do that. Perhaps if they did, and also included the gratuities in their final fare, things wouldn't be as confusing.

 

Also, what about those, like us, who don't dine in the mdr? On our past three cruises, we only dined at the specialty restaurant and never stepped foot in the MDR. So what about people like that?

[FinelyCruising]

Also, what about those, like us, who don't dine in the mdr? On our past three cruises, we only dined at the specialty restaurant and never stepped foot in the MDR. So what about people like that?

 

Then its a double dip and we pay twice if in Specialty Dining or are subsidizing. But in many ways so do those in the highest paying suites for anyone less than that category. Trickle down to the littlest fish.

 

If the playing field is leveled and everyone must pay gratuities in advance, it might be a betterment.

[mardon]

Darcie - who do you think served you at breakfast and lunch? Who do you think cleaned up after you at breakfast and lunch. The same people who work in the MDR!.

 

marlene

[FinelyCruising]

Darcie - who do you think served you at breakfast and lunch? Who do you think cleaned up after you at breakfast and lunch. The same people who work in the MDR!.

 

marlene

 

 

ooooh not always, but its a good concept to expand on!

[mardon]

what do you mean "oooh not always." Who serves you then. Darcie is saying "why should I tip the people in the MDR when I don't eat there." Do you think those waiters and asst. waiters are only in the MDR? They work in the buffet area at breakfast and lunch.

[b72bronc]

Many people are still misinformed when it come to gratuities or tipping. As a former casino employee in Reno, Las Vegas, and for NCL, tips or tokes or gratuities are the main source of income. I was paid a minimum wage in Nevada and even less with NCL. Those cabin stewards and wait staff make less than $200 a month, probably closer to $100 a month. I used to work 11 days on with 1 day off on the S.S. Norway. When at sea from 2 p.m. to 2 a.m. sometimes much later. I depended on winners for my tips granted, but the other crew were totally dependent on gratuities. Poor service should be held to the minimum gratuity and supervisors should be notified. But stiffing them is uncalled for. I cruise often now and always will pay the minimum required but in most cases always much more. Service has always been above and beyond for me, maybe I'm lucky or maybe it is my attitude. In my last 5 cruises, 3 on RCL and two on Celebrity, service has been outstanding and I am sure it will be awesome on my BTB on Solstice this summer. Realize that these people work very hard and sacrafice their homelife to provide us with a great time at a great value. And always remember the words of former great gambler, "The less you bet the more you lose when you win." Happy sailing. Garlicruisers

[FinelyCruising]

what do you mean "oooh not always." Who serves you then. Darcie is saying "why should I tip the people in the MDR when I don't eat there." Do you think those waiters and asst. waiters are only in the MDR? They work in the buffet area at breakfast and lunch.

 

For breakfast service, well that may be limited to cabin service as we enjoy frequently and many like us tip the 'food runner' which is probably already included in the mix if autopaid.

 

For lunch, it may be a combination of options depending on itinerary. If I have lunch off ship, or dinner in specialty, on auto pay, I am paying based on this model, used or not.

 

So don't jump that everyone must subsidize the staff morning noon and night. The pay as you go method is still in effect and the line items are suggested as follows:

 

 

Gratuities

For your convenience, we will automatically add gratuities for your restaurant and stateroom services to your onboard Seapass account on a daily basis in the following amounts, which may be adjusted at your discretion: $11.50 per person per day for guests in staterooms ($12.00 per person per day for guests in Concierge Class and AquaClass staterooms and $15.00 per person per day for guests in Suites). These service gratuities are based on the following recommended amounts:

 

Restaurant Service* Per Person Per Day

Waiter $3.65

Assistant Waiter $2.10

Dining Room Management $1.00

Stateroom Service* Per Person Per Day

Butler (Suites Only) $3.50

Stateroom Service $3.50 ($4.00 for Concierge Class and AquaClass staterooms)

Alternative Service*

Other Service Personnel $1.25

 

Beverage Service personnel are acknowledged with a 15% service charge which will be automatically added to the bill.

 

*Please note that gratuities may be shared with other crew members depending on the particular service requirement.

[mardon]

i think you are looking to stiff the crew.

 

b72bronc - we are friends with alot of the crew members and they get paid $50 a month from Celebrity and depend on the guests for tips. they work real hard and we have always had the best service and that is why we stay with Celebrity.

[mistysue]

We prefer to tip with cash at the end of the cruise its just a personal way to say thank you face to face. It is more convenient to have it taken out of your account but we like the personal touch.

[FinelyCruising]

i think you are looking to stiff the crew.

 

b72bronc - we are friends with alot of the crew members and they get paid $50 a month from Celebrity and depend on the guests for tips. they work real hard and we have always had the best service and that is why we stay with Celebrity.

 

That will be the day and that is my choice, not my requirement. Go ask the rest of those who sail what they do or do not do.

 

And further, I am at a point where I don't really care anymore about what the staff gets paid. I am on vacation and I am paying for an experience. Either I get it or I don't and if I don't its a sum of all the parts. If the staff is unhappy with the arrangement they have made, that is their issue.

 

This commingling and partnering of shared experiences is gone. Chalk it up to the sign of the times so go ask all the other cruisers who fake it and do stiff the staff to get real. I am not paying their way any more.

[jagoffee]

That will be the day and that is my choice, not my requirement. Go ask the rest of those who sail what they do or do not do.

 

And further, I am at a point where I don't really care anymore about what the staff gets paid. I am on vacation and I am paying for an experience. Either I get it or I don't and if I don't its a sum of all the parts. If the staff is unhappy with the arrangement they have made, that is their issue.

 

This commingling and partnering of shared experiences is gone. Chalk it up to the sign of the times so go ask all the other cruisers who fake it and do stiff the staff to get real. I am not paying their way any more.

 

Good reason to call it a service charge and make it a requirement. Those that do not wish to pay the service charge can then cruise on other cruise lines. Or if all cruise lines implement this approach, they can find a vacation option that does not have a service charge. With the variety of dining, it might be the best option. As previously mentioned, the number of threads on cc will drop as well.

[Waterlily777]

That will be the day and that is my choice, not my requirement. Go ask the rest of those who sail what they do or do not do.

 

And further, I am at a point where I don't really care anymore about what the staff gets paid. I am on vacation and I am paying for an experience. Either I get it or I don't and if I don't its a sum of all the parts. If the staff is unhappy with the arrangement they have made, that is their issue.

 

This commingling and partnering of shared experiences is gone. Chalk it up to the sign of the times so go ask all the other cruisers who fake it and do stiff the staff to get real. I am not paying their way any more.

 

 

Could someone interpret this for me, please?

[Can'tstopcruising]

How does it work in All Inclusive Resorts? I am sure the staff is compensated for their work, but there are no "TIPS" per se. It must be calculated in the price.

[hajekfam]

The mandated gratuity could be added on to the price just like the port taxes and fees are added. But cruise lines need to stop what I call "false advertising" when it comes to their fares. They all used to include the port fees in the total cost listed on line or in their brochures, but they no longer do that. Perhaps if they did, and also included the gratuities in their final fare, things wouldn't be as confusing.

 

 

Celebrity fares on their website include port fees - but not taxes (they do not put the fares in their brochures - just a starting at fare). I know that when I get a breakdown from my TA who lists the cruise price, port fees, and taxes separately, my cruise price and port fees are the same price that I saw on Celebrity's website when I booked my cruise. We have been cruising since 1992 and taxes were never listed in the fares (at least for Celebrity).

[trinitygirl]

As a person who has grown up in a non-tripping culture (NZ, Australia, with a lot of the past decade in the UK), it's my opinion that this system you have is crazy - and the amount of time devoted to discussing it (on this board, on other boards I belong to) is really amazing. It seems that it even bamboozles those of you to whom this system should be normalised.

 

Our wait staff all get paid a living wage, even if it's the minimum wage it's set by the fair pay commission. Here in Melbourne, the minimum wage for an 18 year old waiter would be about $18 an hour - so tips really are extra and only granted if you get more than what you would normally expect in a restaurant (prompt courteous service). Where we really do get excellent above-the-call service, we round up the bill. We pay more for our meal than you do, but at least we know the dishwashers, the waiters, the cooks etc, are all getting paid - and they all have access to our universal health care, employment benefits etc. I travel a lot and I am very careful about tipping in those cultures that have this system - I respect difference.

 

Nonetheless, it is very clear to me that tipping in the USA is NOT a gratuity, it's a requirement - a moral, and now seemingly quasi-legal obligation. So why you don't just call a frog a frog and write the 'service charge' into the wages bills, and pay your staff proper wages, I don't understand. For one thing, it would allow employees to know when they are doing something right, because tipping would be about sending a message of thanks and encouragement, rather than making up for inadequate staff conditions (and yes, we get good service even without tipping because if we don't get the service we paid for, we complain and staff get fired). It would also have to be a lot easier from a bookkeeping perspective - all that black-book money could be taxed, there would be a lot less hassle for employees keeping their own books etc. and finally, you could all stop this endless anxioius discussion about tipping...

 

this is one american-driven market intervention that i am very happy to resist.

[tonyd285]

One of the things I liked best about Celebrity's Xpedition voyage in the Galapagos was that all gratuities and beverages were included in the price. No hassles, no 15% added whenever you had a beer, soda or glass of wine. It would seem that many if not most travelers would be willing to pay more for a cruise knowing that, other than purchases for gifts or incidentals, everything was included.

[FinelyCruising]

Could someone interpret this for me, please?

 

Sure with 2 examples.

 

Example #1. My last cruise. The night that gratuities are customarily given to wait staff, my point of view in the MDR left me seeing empty places where diners had been all the other nights. It was so blatant that I still can't get over the impression it left me with.

 

Example #2. The cruise before that. One person who was among a fairly sizable group I was associated with went big mouth about how he told the Maitre'd to hit the road, he did nothing the whole time of the cruise. Fact was, there were quite a few evenings these people were in specialty and the Maitre'd was definitely coming around.

 

Up comming cruise - My tips now must be prepaid to enjoy Select Dining since the staff are easy targets for getting screwed and they are going to make darn sure that I am not one of the culprits.

 

So to anyone who wants to accuse me of stiffing, nope, not ever, never. :) Accuse those who make all the noise about needing to get those envelopes and tip the staff they want to tip and you know...all the rest of the dialog that goes with the baloney that disguises the lack of tipping that is actually performed.:rolleyes:

[brfan]

The mandated gratuity could be added on to the price just like the port taxes and fees are added. But cruise lines need to stop what I call "false advertising" when it comes to their fares. They all used to include the port fees in the total cost listed on line or in their brochures, but they no longer do that. Perhaps if they did, and also included the gratuities in their final fare, things wouldn't be as confusing.

 

Also, what about those, like us, who don't dine in the mdr? On our past three cruises, we only dined at the specialty restaurant and never stepped foot in the MDR. So what about people like that?

 

Since you know you won't be in the MDR for the cruise, I hope when you boarded that you let the Maitre d' know so he could give up your spot to someone who wanted it. If no one wanted it then they could rearrange the table assignments so your assigned waiter/assistant waiter weren't shorted by you not going to MDR, especially if you planned on not tipping MDR crew.

[richsea]

First let me say that we always tip, usually more than the suggested amount. And I don't mind, actually like the fact, that they are now charging gratuities to my account daily. It's just that much less cash to carry. What I don't understand, or particularly like is paying my gratuities before my cruise if I choose select dining. I don't see any reason for Celebrity to do that.

[mike-c52]

The really sad thing is that there are some people (a very small percentage) that do not tip even when they receive good or even great service. I witnessed this on a cruise 2 years age on RCL when 2 people at my table, who had been there every other night for dinner did not show up on the last night when tips were given to the waiters. My experience with service on the 4 cruiese that i have been on has always been wonderful. when i see how hard these men and women work for what is really a small financial reward i wonder how anyone could complain about tipping.So i have no problem with prepaid tips. Holland america did this on my last cruise. at least this way the staff is guarenteed their wage and if service is excellent you can always add to it.

[ZiggyKeys]

As a person who has grown up in a non-tripping culture (NZ, Australia, with a lot of the past decade in the UK), it's my opinion that this system you have is crazy - and the amount of time devoted to discussing it (on this board, on other boards I belong to) is really amazing. It seems that it even bamboozles those of you to whom this system should be normalised.

 

Our wait staff all get paid a living wage, even if it's the minimum wage it's set by the fair pay commission. Here in Melbourne, the minimum wage for an 18 year old waiter would be about $18 an hour - so tips really are extra and only granted if you get more than what you would normally expect in a restaurant (prompt courteous service). Where we really do get excellent above-the-call service, we round up the bill. We pay more for our meal than you do, but at least we know the dishwashers, the waiters, the cooks etc, are all getting paid - and they all have access to our universal health care, employment benefits etc. I travel a lot and I am very careful about tipping in those cultures that have this system - I respect difference.

 

Nonetheless, it is very clear to me that tipping in the USA is NOT a gratuity, it's a requirement - a moral, and now seemingly quasi-legal obligation. So why you don't just call a frog a frog and write the 'service charge' into the wages bills, and pay your staff proper wages, I don't understand. For one thing, it would allow employees to know when they are doing something right, because tipping would be about sending a message of thanks and encouragement, rather than making up for inadequate staff conditions (and yes, we get good service even without tipping because if we don't get the service we paid for, we complain and staff get fired). It would also have to be a lot easier from a bookkeeping perspective - all that black-book money could be taxed, there would be a lot less hassle for employees keeping their own books etc. and finally, you could all stop this endless anxioius discussion about tipping...

 

this is one american-driven market intervention that i am very happy to resist.

 

 

Excuse me but I disagree with your statement that "tipping in the USA is a requirement". (If it is please show me the law that explains this)

 

A waiter is not holding a gun to my head when he/she hands me the restaurant bill making sure I include a tip. Hotel housekeepers (maids) are not standing outside my room on checkout days checking to see if I left some cash on the nightstand. Obviously these are just a few scenarios.

 

Anyone who works in the service industry that relies on gratuities as a portion of their income should be motivated to give excellent service knowing that it could result in a good tip (most of times). Personally, the % I tip is based on service given, plain & simple. Great service = great tip. Lousy service = lousy tip. I've never stiffed anyone out of a gratuity.

 

Oh !! One more thing for you to consider. That 15% thats always added on to any beverage served on board a ship (X as an example), try adding another dollar or 2 to the additional tip line (better yet discreetly hand the bartender the cash) & notice what happens the next time you order a drink from him/her. (talking alcoholic).

 

Ziggy

[jackdiamond]

I would respectfully suggest that most cruisers, including us, love the auto or pre-paid tipping system. There are a few who utilize euphemisms in an attempt to justify their low or non tipping endeavors.

[Waterlily777]

Sure with 2 examples.

 

Example #1. My last cruise. The night that gratuities are customarily given to wait staff, my point of view in the MDR left me seeing empty places where diners had been all the other nights. It was so blatant that I still can't get over the impression it left me with.

 

Example #2. The cruise before that. One person who was among a fairly sizable group I was associated with went big mouth about how he told the Maitre'd to hit the road, he did nothing the whole time of the cruise. Fact was, there were quite a few evenings these people were in specialty and the Maitre'd was definitely coming around.

 

Up comming cruise - My tips now must be prepaid to enjoy Select Dining since the staff are easy targets for getting screwed and they are going to make darn sure that I am not one of the culprits.

 

So to anyone who wants to accuse me of stiffing, nope, not ever, never. :) Accuse those who make all the noise about needing to get those envelopes and tip the staff they want to tip and you know...all the rest of the dialog that goes with the baloney that disguises the lack of tipping that is actually performed.:rolleyes:

 

Finely, thanks for the clarification. I now understand what you meant.

[Waterlily777]

As a person who has grown up in a non-tripping culture (NZ, Australia, with a lot of the past decade in the UK), it's my opinion that this system you have is crazy - and the amount of time devoted to discussing it (on this board, on other boards I belong to) is really amazing. It seems that it even bamboozles those of you to whom this system should be normalised.

 

Our wait staff all get paid a living wage, even if it's the minimum wage it's set by the fair pay commission. Here in Melbourne, the minimum wage for an 18 year old waiter would be about $18 an hour - so tips really are extra and only granted if you get more than what you would normally expect in a restaurant (prompt courteous service). Where we really do get excellent above-the-call service, we round up the bill. We pay more for our meal than you do, but at least we know the dishwashers, the waiters, the cooks etc, are all getting paid - and they all have access to our universal health care, employment benefits etc. I travel a lot and I am very careful about tipping in those cultures that have this system - I respect difference.

 

Nonetheless, it is very clear to me that tipping in the USA is NOT a gratuity, it's a requirement - a moral, and now seemingly quasi-legal obligation. So why you don't just call a frog a frog and write the 'service charge' into the wages bills, and pay your staff proper wages, I don't understand. For one thing, it would allow employees to know when they are doing something right, because tipping would be about sending a message of thanks and encouragement, rather than making up for inadequate staff conditions (and yes, we get good service even without tipping because if we don't get the service we paid for, we complain and staff get fired). It would also have to be a lot easier from a bookkeeping perspective - all that black-book money could be taxed, there would be a lot less hassle for employees keeping their own books etc. and finally, you could all stop this endless anxioius discussion about tipping...

 

this is one american-driven market intervention that i am very happy to resist.[/quote]

 

I hope this last line does not mean that you resist tipping, i.e. that you do not tip.[/COLOR]