I wonder who won the argument?

[Cruisin' Ron VA]

I wonder if they still have jobs? :D

 

Seriously though this could have turned out to be a dangerous situation.

 

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/us_news/Jet_missed_destination_during_crew_spat1256241239320

[Keith1010]

It will be interesting to see what the outcome is and whether there is much more to this than the initial reports. Rather than speculate on what might or not have happened, I look forward to the findings.

 

Keith

[Globaliser]

So do I. However, as the CVR may well be a 30-minute example, and the aircraft overflew the airport some 60 minutes or so before landing, I suspect that we may not get conclusive evidence of whether there were any similarities to a recent incident in Hawaii.

[Cruisin' Ron VA]

So do I. However, as the CVR may well be a 30-minute example, and the aircraft overflew the airport some 60 minutes or so before landing, I suspect that we may not get conclusive evidence of whether there were any similarities to a recent incident in Hawaii.

 

You may be right. The morning talk shows are saying there is a chance the pilots were sleeping instead of arguing.

 

I would think the cock pit voice recorder will determine if the argument excuse is true or not.

 

I also wonder if the military was notified when the pilots couldnt be reached.

 

Have to wait and see.

[Keith1010]

You may be right. The morning talk shows are saying there is a chance the pilots were sleeping instead of arguing.

 

Have to wait and see.

 

Logic says it was more than an argument but we'll have to wait and see. The tapes should be interesting.

 

Keith

[Cruisin' Ron VA]

Found another story that answers the military question.

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091023/ap_on_go_ot/us_northwest_airport_overflown;_ylt=AlWXZEMvKtwI8BE79bUDFaNv24cA;_ylu=X3oDMTMxZDVzc2ttBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMDIzL3VzX25vcnRod2VzdF9haXJwb3J0X292ZXJmbG93bgRjcG9zAzUEcG9zAzUEc2VjA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNwaWxvdHNzaG91bGQ-

[Globaliser]

I would think the cock pit voice recorder will determine if the argument excuse is true or not.

The tapes should be interesting.

I have grave doubts that the CVR tapes will demonstrate anything. The aircraft overflew MSP at about 2004L, when it was flying a heading of about 072. It had been on this heading since 1955L and somewhere near Redwood Falls, which is the beginning of the SKETR3 standard arrival procedure that the flight had filed as part of its flight plan. The aircraft was turned from this heading at about 2014L. It eventually landed some time about 2107L.

 

So with a 30-minute CVR, the recording of the relevant part of the flight would unfortunately have long been overwritten by the time the aircraft landed.

[Ashland]

Wasn't their recently talk about letting pilots take a nap in the cockpit, so they would be fresh for landings...:rolleyes:...Looks like someone may have gone ahead with that and overslept..:eek:.....

[Globaliser]

Wasn't their recently talk about letting pilots take a nap in the cockpit, so they would be fresh for landings.

Many airlines already allow this. But when there's a system in place for it, it should mean that you wouldn't lose both pilots at the same time.

[gargoyle999]

Glad I'm flying Frontier from San Diego back home to Minneapolis after our cruise next month.. :rolleyes:

[world~citizen]

This is the sort of thing you would expect from a third world airline, like one with a laughing hyena on its tail.

 

I don't know what the problem was, but what's for bets the solution will be something like TARP funding for the airline, the CEO will get a raise, the execs will get a bonus, new security regulations for a telescope (big enough to see Venus) inspection up the kazoo, a fare hike, and the removal of two restrooms from economy to install another row of seats.

 

Jeeze!

[kenish]

With all the labor acrimony over the NW/DL merger, a "heated discussion" over a labor policy is actually plausible. But as a private pilot, I think the pilots fell asleep. If accounts are accurate, it's nearly impossible the crew would miss an hour of frantic ATC calls as well as calls over the "company line" to the cockpit (even if they were having a fistfight)! Also, I've been in situations where I didn't hear from ATC and called them to make sure they still knew I was out there. Lack of a response or call from the aircraft has few other explanations.

 

This is not Delta's week, a 767 landed on a taxiway instead of the runway at ATL. Taxiways are outlined in blue lights; runways are white and usually have the sequenced "lead-in" strobe lights at the end. It's an astonishing mistake which could have far more serious consequences than the MSP overshoot. Fortunately there were no planes on the taxiway.

 

I hope the MSP passengers got 300 extra miles credited to their Sky Miles accounts.

[cruisemom42]

A retired pilot on the radio here in Atlanta said that alarms should've been going off in the cockpit -- alarms that would've been difficult to ignore (or sleep through).

 

Anyone know if that is true?

[world~citizen]

A retired pilot on the radio here in Atlanta said that alarms should've been going off in the cockpit -- alarms that would've been difficult to ignore (or sleep through).

 

Anyone know if that is true?

 

Computers can do everything else, why not tell you when you overfly by and hour.

 

My wife thinks the pilots were being amorous. Its the romantic in her.:D

[rich40245]

News tonight confirmed the CVR is the 30 minute variety. So, nothing there, I would guess. I wonder if the FDR will show any activity for the 1:30, or what ever it was, they were out of radio contact.

 

Overflight of the destination, landing on a taxiway, what next for Delta?

 

Rich

[Globaliser]

This is not Delta's week, a 767 landed on a taxiway instead of the runway at ATL. Taxiways are outlined in blue lights; runways are white and usually have the sequenced "lead-in" strobe lights at the end. It's an astonishing mistake ...

It appears that the runway for which they were heading was not fully lit. I think that we should suspend judgement on this one until more is known. As ATL is DL's big hub, I doubt that the crew was unfamiliar with its layout. There must be rather more to this incident that meets the eye.

[skf]

One would think that if an airliner doesn't answer the radio, someone could send a signal to sound a klaxon in the cockpit.

[rich40245]

It appears that the runway for which they were heading was not fully lit. ...

I have not heard this.

 

Now, I'm not a pilot and not sure what impact this might have had:

The runway lights were illuminated though the localizer and approach lights were not turned on, the NTSB reported.

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/ntsb-medical-emergency-forced-168836.html

Rich

[Globaliser]

I think that must be the basis for what I'd read.

 

The approach lights are there for a reason. If they aren't on, it can be rather harder to identify the exact location of the runway. I'm not suggesting that this definitely caused or contributed to the Atlanta incident, but I think that we shouldn't be bandying around phrases like "astonishing mistake" until more facts are known.

 

For quick examples, look at this night photo of a runway's approach lights and edge lights (and imagine what it would look like without any approach lights):-

 

 

And these two daylight shots of a particular airport's runway and parallel taxiway:-

 

[Gsel]

I have to wonder what the Flight Attendants were doing! Surely they were wondering what was taking so long. Why didn't one of them go to the cockpit?

[kenish]

Now, I'm not a pilot and not sure what impact this might have had:

The runway lights were illuminated though the localizer and approach lights were not turned on, the NTSB reported.Rich

 

The approach lights are the "sequenced strobes" shown in the photos Globalizer illustrated. The localizer is a radio beam that projects from the centerline of the runway. Many miles from the airport a plane can center themselves on the runway even in cloudy conditons.

 

So two cues to establish the runway were not operating. These types of irregularities are available on a system called ATIS that broadcasts airport conditions on a continuous loop. There's an absolute requirement to get the current ATIS before beginning an approach. Additionally, Approach Control and/or the control tower will also alert planes to any irregularities. Lastly, the tower normally checks to make sure planes are lined up for the correct runway using radar and binoculars (but are not obligated to do that).

 

Sorry Globalizer, but landing on a taxiway is a very serious mistake regardless of cause. It's the pilots responsibility to ensure they are landing on the correct piece of concrete. There are many checks to prevent the mistake from occuring; obviously this fell through several cracks. Most airline accidents are an average of "7 links". Fortunately for the passengers and crew there was no other plane or ground vehicle on the taxiway.

[Globaliser]

The approach lights are the "sequenced strobes" shown in the photos Globalizer illustrated.

I also wonder whether the entire bar system was switched off, so that the first lights on the runway might have been the green threshold lights.

Sorry Globalizer, but landing on a taxiway is a very serious mistake regardless of cause.

Serious, yes. There was a lot of good luck involved.

 

But "astonishing"? I would prefer to reserve judgement on that until more is known.

[Globaliser]

I have to wonder what the Flight Attendants were doing! Surely they were wondering what was taking so long. Why didn't one of them go to the cockpit?

They did notice, and one of them did call - and that was the call that got everything back onto track. So there wasn't any obviously omission from the cabin crew.

[Gsel]

Thanks, I missed that in the news reports.

[rich40245]

Sounds like time to turn the Wi-Fi off, at least in the flight deck:

Rich

 

 

Pilots Who Missed Airport Were Using Their Laptops

 

The pilots of the Northwest Airlines flight that flew far past the Minneapolis-St. Paul airport last week told investigators that they had been distracted from their duties by a discussion of a new computerized crew-scheduling system that the airline was introducing.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/27/us/27plane.html?partner=rss&emc=rss