My cyber version of going postal, re NORO

[Denny01]

Mktt - I haven't seen anyone on this thread suggest it's up to the passgengers/customers to clean public spaces. The discussion is over personal hygiene.

 

As to a few of your comments:

Regulators: for US-based Lines, it's called the CDC which conducts indepth inspections from what it appears.

Companies/Crew: not going the route of defending them - and not getting into the 'sleeping cleaners' discussions. Agree it's their job to maintain the ships and supervise their personnel.

Passengers: the ony area We have any control over and what this discussion is about.

 

Denny

[swsfrail]

For some reason all these "I have a right not to use hand sanitizer" and "I refuse to be forced to use santizers" and "it's the crew's responsibility to protect the health of the ship, not mine" comments remind me of the scene in the movie Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with Steve Martin and Michael Cain as con artists, with Martin playing the role of the mentally challenged son of Cain. Martin sits at the dinner table of a con victim and asks if he can go to the bathroom. Cain tells him "Of course you can". Martin then squints his eyes and in a few moments exhibits a big satisfying smile and says "Thank you".

 

Being foolishly stubborn about refusing to utilize all means available to prevent the spread of a disease is, unlike that scene, not funny.

[JEDIKNIGHT]

Someone brought up a good point about another cruise line REQUIRING sanitizer but still having outbreaks.

 

I don't think anyone is saying the sanitizer is 100% effective.

 

On my last cruise I saw people ordering low-fat dishes. I even saw people walking on the track, jogging on treadmill. *sheesh* don't they know they're gonna die anyway?

 

The object of the game is to prolong bad things from happening, and to make it less severe and widespread when it does inevitably happen.

[JEDIKNIGHT]

swsfrail....

 

Very well put.

 

And that was the most hilarious scene in that whole movie. Thanks for reminding me! I always like a good laugh

[peanutter]

We just got off the beautiful Solstice yesterday (having to stay home to wait for luggage - thanks Delta!), and there were a few instances of stupidity we noticed.

 

First, DH saw a man pick up tongs from a bread tray, pick up the bread he wanted with his other hand, and then put the tongs back in place. I guess the tongs were in his way!

 

Second, I saw a lady a few times that took the term "grazing" seriously. She just wandered around the buffet area - picking up something, eating it as she walked to another station, and continued going from place to place gnoshing as she went. Forget trays, this lady didn't even use a plate!

 

Oh well, watcha gonna do?! Some folks just don't get it.

[madelinerose]

Well, flame away. That felt good.

I don't even smoke but I think I need a cigarette now ;) Jedi

 

Whew, got a light? :D:D:D I'm feeling better already, thanks.

 

OK, now I'm about to say something that I've never seen mentioned in any of the hundreds of noro/hand sanitizers/wash your hands, etc. etc. threads.

 

Why wouldn't it be a crew member who's the originator of the virus? ;)

[dkjretired]

Whew, got a light? :D:D:D I'm feeling better already, thanks.

 

OK, now I'm about to say something that I've never seen mentioned in any of the hundreds of noro/hand sanitizers/wash your hands, etc. etc. threads.

 

Why wouldn't it be a crew member who's the originator of the virus? ;)

 

It could very well be a crewmember, problem is I don't think they can pin it down. There apparently have been several outbreaks of Noro in Charleston and when the ship is docked the crew certainly does go ashore.

[dkjretired]

For some reason all these "I have a right not to use hand sanitizer" and "I refuse to be forced to use santizers" and "it's the crew's responsibility to protect the health of the ship, not mine" comments remind me of the scene in the movie Dirty Rotten Scoundrels with Steve Martin and Michael Cain as con artists, with Martin playing the role of the mentally challenged son of Cain. Martin sits at the dinner table of a con victim and asks if he can go to the bathroom. Cain tells him "Of course you can". Martin then squints his eyes and in a few moments exhibits a big satisfying smile and says "Thank you".

 

Being foolishly stubborn about refusing to utilize all means available to prevent the spread of a disease is, unlike that scene, not funny.

 

No one is being foolishly stubborn about using them. Perhaps I believe they are detrimental to my health, should I use them at that point. Maybe you are foolish to use them. There may be just as much justification for my statement as yours.

[madelinerose]

It could very well be a crewmember, problem is I don't think they can pin it down. There apparently have been several outbreaks of Noro in Charleston and when the ship is docked the crew certainly does go ashore.

 

Exactly, you can't pin it down.

 

But, why would they even have to leave the ship? Any crew member at any time can use the facilities, sneeze, cough, whatever and not wash his/her hands, then touch food, utensils, railings, etc.

 

Just because the galley is gleaming during a tour, doesn't necessarily mean it is when the pax aren't in there. ;)

[BlewWater]

 

But, geez-o-flip....I'm tired of people who are too stupid, or too carefree that they can't wash their hands. I know, times are tough and a huge investment of 20 seconds, soap and water is alot to ask. Sure it can happen to the cleanest soul among us merely by touching the wrong thing but alot of this nuttery could be contained just by washing hands, and basic courtesy.

 

There's bad luck. Then there's stupidity. People who walk PAST the crew member offering sanitizer, and walk PAST the dispenser really, really haven't seen the ball since the kickoff. And the clue-impaired who don't wash their hands are partially blame not for NORO's existence, but for the rate at which it spreads.

 

 

Even with the marvels of modern medicine,

there's still no cure for Stupid. :(

[Pirate1]

[

 

I've never been on a cruise where it was my responsibility to clean public areas, and make sure that all surfaces were sanitized. I'm the customer, not the staff.

 

If something is dirty, it's not job to clean it, or that of my fellow passengers since the cleanliness of the ship is not our job. Our job is to spend money :D

 

 

That said, I don't disagree with the fact that passengers bring the bug on board...that's a fact.

I also don't disagree that proper hygene is a must, at all times and especially in closed environments like a cruise ship.

 

I find it troubling though that the discussion seems to end there, when in fact we as passengers have so little control over the health a ship. The "cruise passengers bring it on themselves" argument in my opinion lets the cruise companies off the hook.

 

If I were to compose a Jedi-style rant it would be aimed at 4 groups. Not line specific, but aimed at the industry as a whole.

 

1. The regulators.

 

Yes Look up CDC and ship's ratings.

 

2. The Cruise Companies.

 

Why not, if they care, turn away sick passengers?

 

Can you imagine the lawsuits since a whole lot of cruises originate here in USA?

Recently Southwest went thru a hard time when it bounced a "fat" guy....he knew he is considered fat, had bought two seats per rules but went standby on an earlier flight with only one seat.... We know when we are wrong, we just don't admit it or take proper measures.....!

 

3. The crew.

Where is management in all of this? I've never seen any sanitizing being done under supervision.

 

Good mangers do walk around constantly and keep an eye on things. Seen often. Depends on the line ...a lot !

On my last cruises (not X) I saw staff sleeping on the job with their buckets at their feet.

 

Perhaps our responsibility to quietly report the incidence? Would you not report an a safety issue major or minor? In my experience the managers on lines like X are very happy to hear from us . Others maybe not. Then as I do, I vote with my wallet. Bye King's offspring !!!

What is the training? Is it handing over a bucket to a guest relations staff person and saying...go wipe down the theatre? Can you imagine a hospital taking a parking attendant and telling him to go clean the ER?

Or is there an expert on board that will walk staff through the complicated process of surface cleaning? If you read the published paper from Nov 2009, it talks about public restrooms on cruise ships having only 30% of the surfaces cleaned.

 

Don't know of this report. Hospitals by virtue of its population are the worst breeding grounds for infections, even with trained people. So we are careful and do sanitize ourselves by not touching much and washing.

Why can't the crew set an example, since it's their home. Instead they sneeze into their hands, wipe it on their pants. Cough without covering their mouths, etc. etc.

The crew, from management down to the front line workers have a large roll to play in maintaining a safe environment for the customers. I'm not sure that's happening.

 

Again, BUYER BEWARE ! Our responsibility to report. We do report an underdone steak, don't we ? !

 

4. The passengers.

Even those among us who are slobs, need to be less selfish and be considerate of the fact that we're sharing a home for a few days. Wash your hands. Stay home if you're sick. If you become sick onboard, stay in your cabin.

Be considerate when in the buffet. Use the tongs.

Sneeze into your elbow, cover your mouth when you cough. In short, even if you're happy being a total slob, take a second to consider that your filthy lifestyle might endanger your fellow passenger.

 

This was probably the intent of Jedi Knight to begin with. We the PAX need to do our share, then report the shortcomings to management.

On one 18 day cruise I caught the "flu". I am almost certain "who gave it to me", another pax.. To protect the other pax and crew I was quarantined for a few days. I added some more on my own accord not wanting to "spread" any vestiges of the flu to others, (missed 2 ports). Trained crew members came twice a day to the cabin to wipe down most surfaces they could, room service trays were collected back separately etc.

 

 

So, to end my rant....

Yes we as passengers bring the bug on board, yes we as passengers need to maintain a strict regimin of personal hygene....but at the end of the day we're customers, and along with the 3 other stake holders (regulators, cruise line, ship's crew) alll need to play our part.

 

I worry that when passengers play the martyr and take on all the blame, it removes the pressure from the cruise lines and crews to hold up their end of the bargain.

 

This is possible on some lines, X has done better in my books. We as customers do have rights and also responsibility. Practice Common Sense, be considerate of others and REOPRT shortcomings to proper department head. Market forces make sure they do not want adverse publicity of a NOro breakout, whether brought on by pax, crew, poor ship and / or pax hygene !

[bug_dan]

http://www.justicenewsflash.com/2010/03/01/update-norovirus-pathogen-plagued-passengers-crew-aboard-cruise-ship_201003013505.html

 

Per the article only about 3% or 27 crew members contracted Noro on the recent Mercury sailing. That compares to 23% or 419 passengers who contracted it, what are the crew members doing differently, is it possible that their use of sanitizers and washing of hands etc are mandatory????

[swsfrail]

No one is being foolishly stubborn about using them. Perhaps I believe they are detrimental to my health, should I use them at that point. Maybe you are foolish to use them. There may be just as much justification for my statement as yours.

 

I feel sorry for people who suffer from paranoia about using recognized health aids. Just as if one were to think that using prescription glasses may ruin a person's vision - also unfounded - the paranoia about using hand sanitizers is foolish, period, no matter how you may try to rationalize it. People who refuse to believe scientific fact are only fooling themselves, thus are by definition, being "foolish". But, this is a free country, so you indeed have the freedom to be wrong. But when in an environment in close proximity to hundreds, if not thousands, of people, common sense and common decency would suggest that being self centered about one's unfounded belief of hygiene and safety issues is careless, as well as irresponsible.

 

Sorry if my preferences for staying healthy around people offends you. But I've been on this planet so long that I fart moths, so I know a bit about staying healthy and alive. And scoffing at measures put in place to keep me healthy would not have contributed to that longevity.

[JEDIKNIGHT]

If swsfrail is my tablemate, I'm packing moth-balls. ;)

[Pirate1]

I feel sorry for people who suffer from paranoia about using recognized health aids. Just as if one were to think that using prescription glasses may ruin a person's vision - also unfounded - the paranoia about using hand sanitizers is foolish, period, no matter how you may try to rationalize it. People who refuse to believe scientific fact are only fooling themselves, thus are by definition, being "foolish". But, this is a free country, so you indeed have the freedom to be wrong. But when in an environment in close proximity to hundreds, if not thousands, of people, common sense and common decency would suggest that being self centered about one's unfounded belief of hygiene and safety issues is careless, as well as irresponsible.

 

Sorry if my preferences for staying healthy around people offends you. But I've been on this planet so long that I fart moths, so I know a bit about staying healthy and alive. And scoffing at measures put in place to keep me healthy would not have contributed to that longevity.

====================

 

Dear SWSFRAIL:

 

Nowthat is ATTITUDE ! Be my tablemate anytime. My salt shaker & breadbasket are not at risk !

[Denny01]

Swsfrail, I'm at work and if you post anymore that make me burst out as i just did, I'll have people really wondering about me! that was a great 'visual'!

 

I notice you list the Lusitania May 1915. you were on Her when she was torpedoed?

 

Denny

[allentownahoy]

Someone just posted a review from a noro cruise ( Mercury or Summit). Very negative review. Then goes on to his port reviews and describes leaving the ship in the midst of being ill to go on an excursion he didn't want to miss and crawling back to bed afterwards. I am speechless.

[SantaFeFan]

Deleted

[FinelyCruising]

I feel sorry for people who suffer from paranoia about using recognized health aids. Just as if one were to think that using prescription glasses may ruin a person's vision - also unfounded - the paranoia about using hand sanitizers is foolish, period, no matter how you may try to rationalize it. People who refuse to believe scientific fact are only fooling themselves, thus are by definition, being "foolish". But, this is a free country, so you indeed have the freedom to be wrong. But when in an environment in close proximity to hundreds, if not thousands, of people, common sense and common decency would suggest that being self centered about one's unfounded belief of hygiene and safety issues is careless, as well as irresponsible.

 

Sorry if my preferences for staying healthy around people offends you. But I've been on this planet so long that I fart moths, so I know a bit about staying healthy and alive. And scoffing at measures put in place to keep me healthy would not have contributed to that longevity.

 

Are you saying then that hand washing alone is not sufficient and must be accompanied by Purell or someone is acting foolish? Heck it was good enough as a stand alone for as far back as I can remember, but I don't fart moths, so that scientific knowledge you speak of must have come in those earlier years I missed when soap was made out of whale blubber. :D

[dkjretired]

I feel sorry for people who suffer from paranoia about using recognized health aids. Just as if one were to think that using prescription glasses may ruin a person's vision - also unfounded - the paranoia about using hand sanitizers is foolish, period, no matter how you may try to rationalize it. People who refuse to believe scientific fact are only fooling themselves, thus are by definition, being "foolish". But, this is a free country, so you indeed have the freedom to be wrong. But when in an environment in close proximity to hundreds, if not thousands, of people, common sense and common decency would suggest that being self centered about one's unfounded belief of hygiene and safety issues is careless, as well as irresponsible.

 

Sorry if my preferences for staying healthy around people offends you. But I've been on this planet so long that I fart moths, so I know a bit about staying healthy and alive. And scoffing at measures put in place to keep me healthy would not have contributed to that longevity.

 

Who is being foolish, maybe your wrong and I'm right. I guess I am not entitled to my opinion which I have researched. I never said I didn't wash my hands or use good hygiene. By the way, I am not the only one who feels this way. The scientific facts are that these sanitzers do nothing to stop virus, they are an adjunct to washing your hands according to the CDC and they may in fact kill the good germs that fight the illnesses.

You can use your feel good measure but I can assure you I am not a fool, perhaps the sanitizer will help with the moths...

[swsfrail]

Who is being foolish, maybe your wrong and I'm right. I guess I am not entitled to my opinion which I have researched. I never said I didn't wash my hands or use good hygiene. By the way, I am not the only one who feels this way. The scientific facts are that these sanitzers do nothing to stop virus, they are an adjunct to washing your hands according to the CDC and they may in fact kill the good germs that fight the illnesses.

You can use your feel good measure but I can assure you I am not a fool, perhaps the sanitizer will help with the moths...

 

As my mother use to say when I was being a difficult child: "It's like talking to a potato - nothing get's through". It's times like this that I understand her clearly. Oh well!

 

You go right ahead and protect these coveted "good germs" of yours and I'll hope for the best for you. But, please don't touch anything that I may have to touch. Your "good" germs may be overwhelmed by those beligerant "bad" germs that, I have a hunch, are much more agressive when it comes to having their way with you.

[swsfrail]

I notice you list the Lusitania May 1915. you were on Her when she was torpedoed?

 

Denny

 

My father had sailed on her some months before this event. He spent much of his life working for Lloyds of London as an insurance inspector. For the company he would take several trips each year, many of them surreptitiously, to review the ships for adherance to insurance requirements. He also was required to travel on other ships not yet insured by Lloyds to determine if the company should petition for their business. His job was indeed a good one!

 

My mother and I would accompany him on many of these trips, this one being shortly after my birth. Before he passed away he listed all the ships I had traveled on as a young child, several of which I have no memory of, including the Lusitania. Nonetheless, I am confident that I did sail on her, and the others that I do not remember, as I have no reason to doubt his accuracy. He was sharp as a tack right up to the end - a trait I seem to have inherited. Alas, my physical health is no longer cooperating and my sailing days are, for all practical purposes, almost over. But, ever since I was shown this forum by my late husband, I can vicariously cruise through the postings of people here.

 

Sorry for the endless blather. You caught me in a chatty, reflective mood :D

[dkjretired]

As my mother use to say when I was being a difficult child: "It's like talking to a potato - nothing get's through". It's times like this that I understand her clearly. Oh well!

 

You go right ahead and protect these coveted "good germs" of yours and I'll hope for the best for you. But, please don't touch anything that I may have to touch. Your "good" germs may be overwhelmed by those beligerant "bad" germs that, I have a hunch, are much more agressive when it comes to having their way with you.

 

My mother taught me something besides how to wash my hands and that is to be kind to my elders which I will do at this time. I would suggest you go and do some research on your own before you criticize others. It is amazing that you know better than many medical personnel who are at odds over this issue. I will not get personal with my comments as you did as I have found that those who do are usually devoid of facts.

[FinelyCruising]

My mother taught me something besides how to wash my hands and that is to be kind to my elders which I will do at this time. I would suggest you go and do some research on your own before you criticize others. It is amazing that you know better than many medical personnel who are at odds over this issue. I will not get personal with my comments as you did as I have found that those who do are usually devoid of facts.

 

At least you wash your hands. ;) You know who the invented Purell for??? For those who don't. :D

[dkjretired]

At least you wash your hands. ;) You know who the invented Purell for??? For those who don't. :D

 

Thank you, I do wash my hands frequently, you have to see a 62 man singing HB twice to make sure their done properly, been doing that for a couple of years. The only point I was trying to make is I resent being told I'm an idiot or foolish because I choose not to do something I don't believe in. Some people are just so high and mighty, its really annoying..