My cyber version of going postal, re NORO

[JEDIKNIGHT]

Nan, and here's to the gift shop crew member for turning in the stomach flu people.

 

We often see posts complaining about the crew, so let's take a minute to praise someone who went above and beyond and reported it.

 

And kudos for the Captain for getting involved in an aggressive way.

 

that's GREAT.

[SantaFeFan]

I worked for a well-established company - early in my career. There were many long-time workers who were very proud of never using an hour of sick time.

They would come to work hacking up a lung, and the rest of the office would be out sick - but they never took one miinute of sick time.

 

And these same people are the darlings of management because they are seen as dedicated to the company.

[nodumblond]

Having boarded a HAL sailing in the middle of Code Red, I appreciate Jedi's post! DH and I have seriously considered packing respiratory masks when we fly for vacation -- whether it's for us or Typhoid Mary sitting on the aisle next to us if we can't fly Jet Blue (seats two across).

[travelgenie]

While I totally agree with this post, I am still puzzled about the whole hand sanitizer issue. It is only my opinion, but I am fairly certain that they do not replace good old fashioned hand washing. And then of course, is hand sanitizing adequate protection, if for some strange reason someone might not have washed their hands after using the rest room or maybe blowing their nose or licking their fingers, after entering the buffet or dining room? I know, eewww gross! I do not want hand sanitizers forced on me by the cruise line, last time I checked, this is America. For those who are paranoid about germs, I guess they should find another means of vacationing, like going somewhere in a bubble. I carry and use my own, so it could look like I would be refusing it to someone else, so it is not fair to assume the people refusing to use the public hand sanitizers are the culprits.

[Muushka]

I agree with what you have written. But I just wanted to add:

 

Just because someone coughs does not mean that they are sick.

 

I have chronic allergies and I cough. Trust me, you will not catch my allergies.

 

There, I feel better already!:o

[Cruisenouvelle]

And these same people are the darlings of management because they are seen as dedicated to the company.

Amen. I also retired from a large international corp. - no absences meant a larger bonus at annual review time, so the same jerks that came to work, snotty nose, acking away, etc., and infected the rest of us also were rewarded. Gad, I don't miss the corporate world one @!?+!!*&? bit.

Thanks for a funny yet thoughtful post, JKnight.

[DocJohnB]

It is only my opinion, but I am fairly certain that they do not replace good old fashioned hand washing. I do not want hand sanitizers forced on me by the cruise line, last time I checked, this is America. I carry and use my own, so it could look like I would be refusing it to someone else, so it is not fair to assume the people refusing to use the public hand sanitizers are the culprits.

No, it DOES NOT replace good old fashioned hand washing, but it certainly enchances it.

 

And this is (argumentatively) the very attitude that makes any attempt at MANDATORY HAND SANITATION an exercise in futility.

 

Perhaps, if when approaching the people spraying the hand sanitizer, you simply pull what you always carry and apply it at that time, it would not appear that you were refusing it.

[Dharma517]

In addition, those poor souls that do get sick. Please stay in your cabin for AT LEAST 24 hours after your fever breaks or after the last bout of vomiting, etc. THEN...do not go to the buffet :) People just do not wait long enough after they feel better. My doctor told me you can still shed virus for several days. That might play a role as to why it continues to spread.

 

Jenn

[runnerandme]

I was on a ship elevator when a nicely dressed, clean looking woman sneezed on me. I felt the spray. I was furious when she turned to her friend and stated. "This dang cold, I just can't seem to lose it. I am tired of it, I have had it for three weeks. It is time it got lost."

I turned to her and thanked her for her gift. AND asked her where I could send my Dr. bill to when I caught her cold. Which I did catch three days later. Some of the spray must have hit my face. I had gone back to the cabin and took a shower and changed clothes but to no avail. At least it was the last night of the cruise so I know I did not infect anyone else..:mad:

I just wonder how she justified getting on board sick. I think people do not realize the impact their illness has on others when they "share the germs" or unfortunately they do not care.

Yes I realize people have money, vacation time, etc tied up in cruise plans and do not want a simple cold, virus, flu, etc to stop them. BUT if only one person reads this thread and does not cruise sick it has been a great thread..thank you Jedi.

Connie

[Lois R]

I was on a ship elevator when a nicely dressed, clean looking woman sneezed on me. I felt the spray. I was furious when she turned to her friend and stated. "This dang cold, I just can't seem to lose it. I am tired of it, I have had it for three weeks. It is time it got lost."

I turned to her and thanked her for her gift. AND asked her where I could send my Dr. bill to when I caught her cold. Which I did catch three days later. Some of the spray must have hit my face. I had gone back to the cabin and took a shower and changed clothes but to no avail. At least it was the last night of the cruise so I know I did not infect anyone else..:mad:

I just wonder how she justified getting on board sick. I think people do not realize the impact their illness has on others when they "share the germs" or unfortunately they do not care.

Yes I realize people have money, vacation time, etc tied up in cruise plans and do not want a simple cold, virus, flu, etc to stop them. BUT if only one person reads this thread and does not cruise sick it has been a great thread..thank you Jedi.

Connie

 

Connie, yikes:eek:...bad enough she had a cold, but she actually

did not cover her mouth/nose when she sneezed?:confused::mad:.......now

that does get a BIG YUK from me!

[travelgenie]

No, it DOES NOT replace good old fashioned hand washing, but it certainly enchances it.

 

And this is (argumentatively) the very attitude that makes any attempt at MANDATORY HAND SANITATION an exercise in futility.

 

Perhaps, if when approaching the people spraying the hand sanitizer, you simply pull what you always carry and apply it at that time, it would not appear that you were refusing it.

 

Does anyone remember the days before the hand sanitizer brigade? Was viruses on cruise ships, front page news, 20 years ago? Get a grip people, you are getting sick from people who should have stayed home to begin with and if you are sick, mid cruise, stay in your cabin to prevent spreading it around. Don't blame the lack of using hand sanitizers as the reason for the spread of the virus, how about being truthful to the health waiver that is a must for everyone to fill out.

[PrincessMelody]

Great post!! My family always makes fun of me for being a "germphobe" because I wash my hands frequently, use hand sanitizer and Lysol. I also stay as far away from sick people as I can. If I am in a public place, and someone is obviously ill, I will get as far away as quick as possible. I really don't get sick very often...and maybe my careful behavior contributes to that. At least I like to think it does!! On the rare occasion that I do become ill, I stay home until I'm better. I don't get why people would even want to go anywhere feeling like death...:confused: I don't know if it's lack of consideration, or lack of sense!!

[dzcruisers]

Great post!

On one of the major network stations in Savannah they have a really cute (you watch it first because there are 3 adorable little girls) commercial (public service announcement) where the three discuss the proper way to sneeze, not in your hand, they discuss not going out when you are not feeling well and some other basic health courtesies we should all pay to one another. I've thought many times recently that X should get this and play it while people are standing in line checking in and in any other venue where people may be waiting.

My grand daughters taught me to sneeze into my elbow, not my hands, Seems they teach it from preschool up now.

[DocJohnB]

Does anyone remember the days before the hand sanitizer brigade? Was viruses on cruise ships, front page news, 20 years ago? Get a grip people, you are getting sick from people who should have stayed home to begin with and if you are sick, mid cruise, stay in your cabin to prevent spreading it around. Don't blame the lack of using hand sanitizers as the reason for the spread of the virus, how about being truthful to the health waiver that is a must for everyone to fill out.

 

Couldn't agree with the bolded part (my emphasis) more. However much like making hand sanitizing MANDATORY, it just isn't going to happen. People are people . . . . all the remonstrations and hand wringing is not going to stop someone who is ill and so inclined from fudging the health questionnaire and coming on board, or traipsing around the ship if they are sick. And most of them would probably be amongst those who do not wash their hands and use a sanitizer.

 

Therefore, I try to cover as many basis as I can, good personal hygiene and hand sanitizer hasn't killed me yet. It has worked so far for me.

[JEDIKNIGHT]

Hi Fantail and glad you enjoyed the post. Having someone from Health Care chime in really helps, this way those of us clamoring for better hygene amongst pax don't seem like ninnies.

 

Also here's to being a nurse. The few times I've been in a hospital the only thing I remember was the kindness of a nurse. Sometimes I wonder...I bet you have stories to tell from dealing with the public at large.

[JEDIKNIGHT]

HI DocJohn...

 

Well said. Avoiding sick people, hand washing, blasting myself with oranges and using the sanitizer hasn't done anything bad to me yet.

 

And if I may go off topic, I read that wonderful quote in your signature and thank you very much for your service. It's because of men and women and families like you and yours, that my generation was pretty much given a great nation and an easy ride....even in our tougher days. Anytime I'm at work, or out for breakfast and I see someone with a hat, or other paraphanalia(Sorry for spelling, blame the school system) from our military I'm reminded for that brief seconds that no matter who well I do in life, business, etc....I'm really kind of 'small' compared to those of you who blazed a trail for me.

[mycatsarecool4]

Anita, I also brought sanitizer and FYI, anytime I check-in to a hotel room or cruise, the FIRST thing I do is not the buffet, or explore the ship. I've got LYSOL in my handbag and I spray down EVERY remote control, knob, faucet, tub, shower, surface, etc.

 

MANY years ago I worked for a CLEAN hotel chain(housekeeping) and you seriously could eat off the floor in front of the toilet and be safe, HOWEVER the bedspreads rarely got washed! I would spray them, too! (GOOD CALL ON THE REMOTE) My husband used to think if he washed in the men's room, he was ok to eat 1/2 hr later. I told him he touched the door knob, the chair, the menu( which RARELY gets washed), the salt shaker, etc. Now he agrees to sanitize directly before eating and if he needs the salt again, he sanitizes afterward. OCD? I'm a nurse and I know what's out there. In restaurants, I don't care who gawks. It's my health and what I do protects them too, even if they don't care.

[Denny01]

Agree with our OP, and with most of the posts about human nature helping spread the viruses. Kind of like the viruses 'know us' better than we do ourselves. I think all of us know that washing our hands is more effective than just the hand sanitizers, but the point of the hand sanitizers especially right outside the dining facilities (and Casinos) is to help minimize the spread since you can pick up the virus after you've washed so thoroughly and you use the sanitizer right before you step into an area with higher chance of spreading it. So for the few who think they just need to wash or walk by the sanitizers because they have their own....what's the point except to show your 'independence'? Doesn't make any sense - use the blasted things, even if you are carrying your own stash.

 

And people seem to be offended by the presence of sanitizers - a reviewer a while ago cited being 'forced' to use the sanitzers as a real negative to their cruise experience. What?? When a reasonable explanation was posted (of course by me, and everybody knows and 'reasonable' I am!), the reviewer still insisted it was bad that the ship was forcing people to use it - and it dried her hands out. I just gave up. There are those that just refuse to listen.

 

To those that pass out the bad gouge that hand sanitizer with alcohol isn't effective - it is - read the CDC site and many other health reports and recommendations and quit looking for excuses. And the other common excuse that dry/chapped skin caused by the sanitizer lets the virus in - noroviruses infects you when you have it on your hands and you touch your mouth, your nose or your eyes. Use hand lotion if you think dry skin is so much worse than norovirus infections.

 

Denny

[DocJohnB]

HI DocJohn...

 

Well said. Avoiding sick people, hand washing, blasting myself with oranges and using the sanitizer hasn't done anything bad to me yet.

 

And if I may go off topic, I read that wonderful quote in your signature and thank you very much for your service. It's because of men and women and families like you and yours, that my generation was pretty much given a great nation and an easy ride....even in our tougher days. Anytime I'm at work, or out for breakfast and I see someone with a hat, or other paraphanalia(Sorry for spelling, blame the school system) from our military I'm reminded for that brief seconds that no matter who well I do in life, business, etc....I'm really kind of 'small' compared to those of you who blazed a trail for me.

 

Thanks for those kind words.

[travelgenie]

Agree with our OP, and with most of the posts about human nature helping spread the viruses. Kind of like the viruses 'know us' better than we do ourselves. I think all of us know that washing our hands is more effective than just the hand sanitizers, but the point of the hand sanitizers especially right outside the dining facilities (and Casinos) is to help minimize the spread since you can pick up the virus after you've washed so thoroughly and you use the sanitizer right before you step into an area with higher chance of spreading it. So for the few who think they just need to wash or walk by the sanitizers because they have their own....what's the point except to show your 'independence'? Doesn't make any sense - use the blasted things, even if you are carrying your own stash.

 

And people seem to be offended by the presence of sanitizers - a reviewer a while ago cited being 'forced' to use the sanitzers as a real negative to their cruise experience. What?? When a reasonable explanation was posted (of course by me, and everybody knows and 'reasonable' I am!), the reviewer still insisted it was bad that the ship was forcing people to use it - and it dried her hands out. I just gave up. There are those that just refuse to listen.

 

To those that pass out the bad gouge that hand sanitizer with alcohol isn't effective - it is - read the CDC site and many other health reports and recommendations and quit looking for excuses. And the other common excuse that dry/chapped skin caused by the sanitizer lets the virus in - noroviruses infects you when you have it on your hands and you touch your mouth, your nose or your eyes. Use hand lotion if you think dry skin is so much worse than norovirus infections.

 

Denny

 

 

 

Did not realize that hand sanitizers are the be-all, cure-all solution to the virus epidemic, you learn something everyday.

[dkjretired]

Did not realize that hand sanitizers are the be-all, cure-all solution to the virus epidemic, you learn something everyday.

 

I have been reading this thread for two days and I agree with almost everything the OP wrote except for the comments on the sanitizers. I am also sick of the preaching by some about them. Straight up, I don't use them and will not use them. It is not an excuse as Denny has said and I really resent those who think we are some type of terrible human beings for not using them. I have read the CDC web site many times over the years and I have read a number of articles indicating that the hand sanitzers can kill the good germs which can prevent illnesses. I will continue to wash my hands and hope that nothing happens because I can't possible eliminate all the places I can get noro while on a trip. I just wish everyone would stop preaching about this wonderful product and all the damned people and families who don't use them.

[Denny01]

Did not realize that hand sanitizers are the be-all, cure-all solution to the virus epidemic, you learn something everyday.

 

Since you apparently missed what I said about handwashing and hand sanitizers, I quote myself:

"I think all of us know that washing our hands is more effective than just the hand sanitizers, but the point of the hand sanitizers especially right outside the dining facilities (and Casinos) is to help minimize the spread since you can pick up the virus after you've washed so thoroughly and you use the sanitizer right before you step into an area with higher chance of spreading it. "

Boy, that may be a first for me - quoting such an important and knowledgable source - Me!! And I understand each of us have our view of proper hygiene.

Denny

[Pirate1]

While I totally agree with this post, I am still puzzled about the whole hand sanitizer issue. It is only my opinion, but I am fairly certain that they do not replace good old fashioned hand washing. And then of course, is hand sanitizing adequate protection, if for some strange reason someone might not have washed their hands after using the rest room or maybe blowing their nose or licking their fingers, after entering the buffet or dining room? I know, eewww gross! I do not want hand sanitizers forced on me by the cruise line, last time I checked, this is America. For those who are paranoid about germs, I guess they should find another means of vacationing, like going somewhere in a bubble. I carry and use my own, so it could look like I would be refusing it to someone else, so it is not fair to assume the people refusing to use the public hand sanitizers are the culprits.

 

===========================================

 

RED bold by me....

 

Yes this is America. However on 98 % of cruises we are NOT IN AMERICA. ! We are on high seas or in another soveriegn country..... So the ship's Captain rules...OK? Or is this the case of "I am an American, wherever I go is AMerica, so therefore you shall all please me" !

 

So instead of asking us to stay home, perhaps you can stay back in America where you can exercise your rights without regards to others?

 

My primary school Civics taught us that with all RIGHTS come RESPONSIBILITIES...so how about behaving RESPONSIBILY? !! Too much to ask for?

 

Yes I am lazy.....but I do wash up or sanitize after washing on a cruise ship......I know I owe it to my fellow passengers if not to my spouse or myself !

 

Excuse me, but time to speak up without worrying about being PC.

 

What say you?

[14 Days or Longer]

On our NCL cruise, you could not enter any food venues without using the hands spray, staff stood right there and made sure you got it, easy enough for all cruise lines to take this stand!

 

NCL does indeed make sure you use the hand sanitizer but even that precaution did not prevent the spread of the Novo virus on on our recent SA

cruise. What we did notice was what was stated in the op. Some pax did not wash their hands after using the rest rooms and failed to cover their coughs and we got shunned when we said they should! We as passengers can help stop the spread of illness on board by taking precautions and using common sense! Cudos to the op for saying like it is.

[mktt]

Having been on a Noro ship very recently, I find the "must use sanitizers, passengers bring the bug on the ship" to be confusing and troubling.

 

I wonder at what point in time the customer (passenger) took on the responsibility for the overall health of the ship?? How this falsehood spread to the point that people recite it like it's the truth.

 

I've never been on a cruise where it was my responsibility to clean public areas, and make sure that all surfaces were sanitized. I'm the customer, not the staff.

 

If something is dirty, it's not job to clean it, or that of my fellow passengers since the cleanliness of the ship is not our job. Our job is to spend money :D

 

 

That said, I don't disagree with the fact that passengers bring the bug on board...that's a fact.

I also don't disagree that proper hygene is a must, at all times and especially in closed environments like a cruise ship.

 

I find it troubling though that the discussion seems to end there, when in fact we as passengers have so little control over the health a ship. The "cruise passengers bring it on themselves" argument in my opinion lets the cruise companies off the hook.

 

If I were to compose a Jedi-style rant it would be aimed at 4 groups. Not line specific, but aimed at the industry as a whole.

 

1. The regulators. They're required to set the standards. Lets be honest, the cruise companies are in it to make money (fair play to them), so there is the need for a neutral third party to set the standards so that cost cutting doesn't endanger public health.

So I would rant at the EU and ask them why has SHIPSAN taken so long to implement?

 

2. The Cruise Companies. Yes I know times are tough, and yes I know you have ever increasing costs and a whole lot of shareholders you need to keep happy. Still, where are the standards? Where is the commitment to public health? We see all the time the "green plan" Videos on board about how waste is treated etc. That gives us warm fuzzies, because we don't want poor cute dolphins choking on our garbage, which in turn is good for business. Where is the health plan? Why is there no dedicated cleaning staff? Why are housekeeping and maintenence staff required to work double duty. Why is such an important task (sanitizing) left to people who are trained and skilled in other areas. Instead of telling us it's our own fault for bringing it on board, why can't there be a real commitment to having clean (as opposed to just tidy) ships? Why are some company's employees (Oil rig, hospital, Day cares) treated better than customers?

FYI, you can google "cruise noro cleaning shell" and the first result is a ppt by Shell, that outlines their strategy for dealing with Noro on Oil Rigs...it's light years ahead of cruise lines.

Why is the only pre-cruise screening some sort of voluntary questionaire? Why not have a doctors employed to monitor the cruise terminal, making random checks.

Why not, if they care, turn away sick passengers?

 

3. The crew. Where is management in all of this? I've never seen any sanitizing being done under supervision. On my last cruise (not X) I saw staff sleeping on the job with their buckets at their feet.

What is the training? Is it handing over a bucket to a guest relations staff person and saying...go wipe down the theatre? Can you imagine a hospital taking a parking attendant and telling him to go clean the ER?

Or is there an expert on board that will walk staff through the complicated process of surface cleaning? If you read the published paper from Nov 2009, it talks about public restrooms on cruise ships having only 30% of the surfaces cleaned.

Why can't the crew set an example, since it's their home. Instead they sneeze into their hands, wipe it on their pants. Cough without covering their mouths, etc. etc.

The crew, from management down to the front line workers have a large roll to play in maintaining a safe environment for the customers. I'm not sure that's happening.

 

4. The passengers.

Even those among us who are slobs, need to be less selfish and be considerate of the fact that we're sharing a home for a few days. Wash your hands. Stay home if you're sick. If you become sick onboard, stay in your cabin.

Be considerate when in the buffet. Use the tongs.

Sneeze into your elbow, cover your mouth when you cough. In short, even if you're happy being a total slob, take a second to consider that your filthy lifestyle might endanger your fellow passenger.

 

 

So, to end my rant....

Yes we as passengers bring the bug on board, yes we as passengers need to maintain a strict regimin of personal hygene....but at the end of the day we're customers, and along with the 3 other stake holders (regulators, cruise line, ship's crew) alll need to play our part.

 

I worry that when passengers play the martyr and take on all the blame, it removes the pressure from the cruise lines and crews to hold up their end of the bargain.