My cyber version of going postal, re NORO

[swsfrail]

Some people are just so high and mighty, its really annoying..

 

I am not high! I don't do drugs, other than a dozen prescription pills to deal with my "older than dirt" condition - keeps the moths under control, if you know what I mean. "Mighty", however, is something altogether different. :D

 

Relax. I am not flustered by your ungentlemanly comments about me (if I did my poor heart might sign off for good!). Take my lead and "chill out, dude", as my grandson unfortunately likes to say much too often. You'll enjoy this discussion more if you do. Oh, and don't forget that hand sanitizer ;)

[safein]

My father had sailed on her some months before this event. He spent much of his life working for Lloyds of London as an insurance inspector. For the company he would take several trips each year, many of them surreptitiously, to review the ships for adherance to insurance requirements. He also was required to travel on other ships not yet insured by Lloyds to determine if the company should petition for their business. His job was indeed a good one!

 

My mother and I would accompany him on many of these trips, this one being shortly after my birth. Before he passed away he listed all the ships I had traveled on as a young child, several of which I have no memory of, including the Lusitania. Nonetheless, I am confident that I did sail on her, and the others that I do not remember, as I have no reason to doubt his accuracy. He was sharp as a tack right up to the end - a trait I seem to have inherited. Alas, my physical health is no longer cooperating and my sailing days are, for all practical purposes, almost over. But, ever since I was shown this forum by my late husband, I can vicariously cruise through the postings of people here.

 

Sorry for the endless blather. You caught me in a chatty, reflective mood :D

 

Can I sit at your table too?

 

Anita

[JEDIKNIGHT]

I would like the record to show that it is now an odd-numbered month, hence I am indeed washing my hands after using the washroom.

 

But I am a traditionalist, so I won't change my underwear, because I want to get it nice and green in time for St Patrick's day.

[CruiserDen]

Bless you for your wisdom and may we forgive those who fail to heed it.

 

 

I am not high! I don't do drugs, other than a dozen prescription pills to deal with my "older than dirt" condition - keeps the moths under control, if you know what I mean. "Mighty", however, is something altogether different. :D

 

Relax. I am not flustered by your ungentlemanly comments about me (if I did my poor heart might sign off for good!). Take my lead and "chill out, dude", as my grandson unfortunately likes to say much too often. You'll enjoy this discussion more if you do. Oh, and don't forget that hand sanitizer ;)

[DocJohnB]

To say this has been an interesting discussion would be an understatement.

 

There are obviously two sides to the hand sanitizer issue. There are those of us who use it and believe we benefit from its' use. Then, there are those of us who do not use it and do not believe there is any benefit to be derived for its' use.

 

I am not sure without scientific proof positive that either side is going to change the others mind or way of thinking.

 

Much like global warming.

 

The most interesting part of the discussion, at least for me, is swsrail whose father told her she sailed on the Lusitania as an infant months before it was torpedoed and sunk.

 

I can pretty much guess at her age, but will be a gentleman and not mention it. But she is as sharp as a tack. Thanks for your input. I would ask to sit at her table also, but that seems to be getting quite crowded. Perhaps she could meet me for a nice drink prior to dinner. ;)

[cruisewokids]

I am not high! I don't do drugs, other than a dozen prescription pills to deal with my "older than dirt" condition - keeps the moths under control, if you know what I mean. "Mighty", however, is something altogether different. :D

 

Relax. I am not flustered by your ungentlemanly comments about me (if I did my poor heart might sign off for good!). Take my lead and "chill out, dude", as my grandson unfortunately likes to say much too often. You'll enjoy this discussion more if you do. Oh, and don't forget that hand sanitizer ;)

 

This is a lady after my own heart. I would also love to sit at her table as I know that her hands would be clean.:D I work in the medical field and although nothing beats a good old fashioned hand washing, sanitizer does help for the CDC recommends it. So how about doing both!:) I carry sanitizer with me everywhere and I also teach my 2 and 4 year old to use it. Great Thread!!!!:D

[Denny01]

DocJohnB – you know that even when it's 'proof positive' that an issue is decided, there will be a large number who will never give up their opposition (or support) for things such as this. There are a ton of cases that no matter how much scientific 'proof' is provided, there will always be the 'yes, buts...', or the 'not enough data...' or the final argument to use to ignore what you don't like: 'it's a conspiracy!'

 

But for our specific discussion here, the argument to not use hand sanitizers because it kills 'good' germs doesn't seem to track: It doesn't kill 'good' germs or 'bad' germs, it kills germs, and the alcohol added kills viruses which is what we are interested in for this norovirus discussion. Since we are rubbing this stuff on our hands and not drinking it, what does it matter if it's killing 'good' germs? They are on our hands, our exterior. The 'good' germs we need for our health are in our gut, inside us, not laying around on our hands. And since it's killing viruses on your hands that you picked up from a handrail, door knob, elevator button, the wall, etc after you washed your hands, and before you step into the buffet then it seems using the sanitizer is the right thing to do.

 

But there must be other arguments not to use hand sanitizers such as if some guy is standing there trying to get you to use it before you step into dine, then it would be Un-American to use it since it would take away our 'independence'.

 

Edit: I forget about dry hands - OK, use hand lotion.

 

Denny

[swsfrail]

I can pretty much guess at her age, but will be a gentleman and not mention it. I would ask to sit at her table also, but that seems to be getting quite crowded. Perhaps she could meet me for a nice drink prior to dinner.

 

As you know, sir, a proper lady cannot reveal her age (although "proper" may be debatable). Let's just say that I have celebrated at least 70 times the anniversary of my 21st birthday. Ah, maybe a few more than that, if truth be told. Hopefully I will be blessed with seeing the century mark, if God is not yet anxious for me to pay him a personal visit. And a glass of fine cognac would be quite nice. And by the way, make that a tall one.

 

Thank those of you for your kind words. I would like to meet you all as well. Perhaps we someday will - and I will charm the captain to set a special table for my new friends on that fortuitous occasion.

 

Mary

[dkjretired]

I am not high! I don't do drugs, other than a dozen prescription pills to deal with my "older than dirt" condition - keeps the moths under control, if you know what I mean. "Mighty", however, is something altogether different. :D

 

Relax. I am not flustered by your ungentlemanly comments about me (if I did my poor heart might sign off for good!). Take my lead and "chill out, dude", as my grandson unfortunately likes to say much too often. You'll enjoy this discussion more if you do. Oh, and don't forget that hand sanitizer ;)

 

You started with the negative and personal comments, I will just agree to disagree and make no further comments....

[FinelyCruising]

Good Morning!!!

 

I think this is a great opportunty for young and old alike to perform a Google Search to start the day off right. Just like having a nice big glass of OJ.

 

So Here are your key words for today.

 

Handwashing Sanitizer CDC (just use one space when you enter the words)

 

Report back here what you find. ;)

[ChucktownSteve]

But I am a traditionalist, so I won't change my underwear, because I want to get it nice and green in time for St Patrick's day.

 

Ewwwwwwwwww TMI. But funny. :D

 

You don't need to change em as long as you use sanitizer. ;)

[DocJohnB]

Good Morning!!!

 

I think this is a great opportunty for young and old alike to perform a Google Search to start the day off right. Just like having a nice big glass of OJ.

 

So Here are your key words for today.

 

Handwashing Sanitizer CDC (just use one space when you enter the words)

 

Report back here what you find. ;)

 

Just the first article.

 

Department of Health and Human Services, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention

 

Clean Hands Save Lives!

 

Keeping hands clean is one of the most important steps we can take to avoid getting sick and spreading germs to others. It is best to wash your hands with soap and clean running water for 20 seconds. However, if soap and clean water are not available, use an alcohol-based product to clean your hands. Alcohol-based hand rubs significantly reduce the number of germs on skin and are fast acting.

 

When washing hands with soap and water:

 

* Wet your hands with clean running water and apply soap. Use warm water if it is available.

* Rub hands together to make a lather and scrub all surfaces.

* Continue rubbing hands for 20 seconds. Need a timer? Imagine singing "Happy Birthday" twice through to a friend!

* Rinse hands well under running water

* Dry your hands using a paper towel or air dryer. If possible, use your paper towel to turn off the faucet

 

When should you wash your hands?

 

* Before preparing or eating food

* After going to the bathroom

* After changing diapers or cleaning up a child who has gone to the bathroom

* Before and after tending to someone who is sick

* After blowing your nose, coughing, or sneezing

* After handling an animal or animal waste

* After handling garbage

* Before and after treating a cut or wound

 

Remember: If soap and water are not available, use alcohol-based gel to clean hands.

When using an alcohol-based hand sanitizer:

 

* Apply product to the palm of one hand

* Rub hands together

* Rub the product over all surfaces of hands and fingers until hands are dry.

my emphasis

 

Unfortunately FC, articles like this will do little change the minds of people like our friend Don and I don't know why. It certainly isn't a government conspiracy.

[FinelyCruising]

DocJohn -

 

All of the articles in that search and that appear on the 1st page indicate that sanitizers are a suitable substitute if hand washing opportunities are not available. They do not say, as many here cite incorrectly as CDC directives, a necessity to use sanitizer after soap and water or else.

 

So I think this search will be beneficial for everyone to get their facts straight first and then speak on the topic with somewhat with accurate information before they go shooting from the hip.

 

:o

[Woobstr112G]

This just might be dismissed as a rant and thus removed, or moved to another board under the mighty yet fair supreme power and auspices of Host Anne. Though it's relevant to cruising, and Celebrity cruising.

 

And before the flame brigades appear let me say it: Yeah, we're all human. Yeah, we all get sick. None of us are perfect including this writer.

 

But, geez-o-flip....I'm tired of people who are too stupid, or too carefree that they can't wash their hands. I know, times are tough and a huge investment of 20 seconds, soap and water is alot to ask. Sure it can happen to the cleanest soul among us merely by touching the wrong thing but alot of this nuttery could be contained just by washing hands, and basic courtesy.

 

Then there's the bad sore throats and coughs. Not sniffles, but full fledged hack-o-ramas complete with orgy of mucus and yucky stuff. They just GOTTA eat at the buffet and just GOTTA go to the showroom to watch some dude juggle or sing Sweet Caroline, ba-ba-ba-good times never seemed so good.

 

Is it really that bad to stay in cabin, have room service delivered like you're a king, watch TV and wait until you're less contagious? (Even at home if I'm contagious, I refuse to go out to eat, infect waitresses who need their daily tips, and other diners for no reason)

 

There's bad luck. Then there's stupidity. People who walk PAST the crew member offering sanitizer, and walk PAST the dispenser really, really haven't seen the ball since the kickoff. And the clue-impaired who don't wash their hands are partially blame not for NORO's existence, but for the rate at which it spreads.

 

Pax, it's your money. Are you a trust fund baby or did you earn that money? If so, isn't it reasonable to expect fellow pax to practice BASIC courtesy and hygene in the name of a healthy and drama free vacation?

 

No vacation is perfect. But we must do what we can to avoid such misery on a vacation. We're not talking an overdone steak. We're talking disease, pain, trip delays, cancellations, worrying about motels and meal credits and how to get home from Charleston.

 

I would hope cruise lines make it MANDATORY to use the sanitizers. I would hope that people looking just plain old dirty in ship's public areas are given a cold, dirty, and somewhat mean stare. Ditto for those with a nasty cold who want to play Russian Roulette with other pax.

 

Well, flame away. That felt good.

 

I don't even smoke but I think I need a cigarette now ;)

 

Peaches and cream from Northern Virginia.....Jedi

 

Well said.....:):):)

 

Bob

[usha]

Why not just thoroughly wash your hands with soap & water,

and follow up with Purell shots?;)

[Denny01]

The point we who believe you should use hand sanitzer are making is, most do you wash their hands at some specific time period - before leaving your room, after using the bathroom, etc. You then go wander the ship, use the casino, the elevators, the handrails, cups, glasses, touch other human beings........ Then before you enter a dining facility, or walking in or out of the casino or other commona area, you reach over and use the hand sanitizer. So if you must continue to make the point that you won't use hand sanitizer for whatever reason, step in the the bathroom and wash your hands every time you would use a hand sanitizer. Good on you.

 

But since there are many people are walking into large common areas where there is a high potential of exchanging handborne 'entities', there are hand sanitizers - we use them....in Conjunction with handwashing.

 

Lets use some common sense. With 1000+ people potentially moving in and out of, lets say the buffet area, and it has a single womans and mens rooms at the entry with a couple of sinks each, do you see the rationale for hand sanitizer for overall public health? Not replacing handwashing.

 

This is getting beyond pointless and becoming, "I'm digging for any reason, rationale I can come up with because I've taken a public stand against hand sanitizers'. So wash your hands every time you have an opportunity to use the hand sanitizer. And that is probably a 'better' solution than using just the sanitizer. The rest of us will use both. And you'll notice none of us are saying hand saniziting replaces handwashing or suggesting we quit handwashing.

 

You win.

 

Denny

[Doughnut Dolly]

I know this is an important thread, but the remarks by swsfrail have absolutely brighten my

day. My Granddad had this same way of seeming to ramble, then come out with some words of wisdon that would be hilarious, but so dead on and right to the point. Swsfrail, you bring back some wondeful memories

Anytime you cruise, you let me know, I'll buy you that glass of tall "whatever" and smile and toast to your good Health!

[Denny01]

I know this is an important thread, but the remarks by swsfrail have absolutely brighten my

day. My Granddad had this same way of seeming to ramble, then come out with some words of wisdon that would be hilarious, but so dead on and right to the point. Swsfrail, you bring back some wondeful memories

Anytime you cruise, you let me know, I'll buy you that glass of tall "whatever" and smile and toast to your good Health!

 

Donut Dolly - this Isn't an important thread. It's as important as the one asking about a specific hotel, probably less so. The person asking specific info will get useful info for at least themselves and maybe a few others. This thread, which I've added to too much, is just a couple of us beating up on each other and won't change any minds. Maybe someone will lean over and squirt in sanitizer a bit more, who knows, but it won't change many minds.

 

I agree with you on Swsfrail. Went over and read some last night about the Luistania. Interesting. Would love to sit and talk with her. That's what cruising is about, for me. Meeting people and getting to relax and see some places. And maybe not getting sick, but in truth I'm more interested in the Roll Calls, some reviews, dicussions on things to do, tips and so on.

 

enjoy and maybe we can share a story - being a Navy guy, i can make em up better than most! SeaStories!

 

Denny

[DocJohnB]

So I think this search will be beneficial for everyone to get their facts straight first and then speak on the topic with somewhat with accurate information before they go shooting from the hip.

 

This is getting beyond pointless and becoming, "I'm digging for any reason, rationale I can come up with because I've taken a public stand against hand sanitizers'. So wash your hands every time you have an opportunity to use the hand sanitizer. And that is probably a 'better' solution than using just the sanitizer. The rest of us will use both. And you'll notice none of us are saying hand saniziting replaces handwashing or suggesting we quit handwashing.

 

You win.

 

Denny

 

FinelyCruising, believe me I am not shooting from the hip. I am speaking from an almost 30 year career in Navy medicine (not a doctor).

 

Denny hits the nail right on the head (bolded above). Ideally that would mean that every man, woman and child hit the restroom right outside the dining facilities and thoroughly wash their hands prior to entering the facility. Then keep their hands off of everything until they enter the facility. But that is not going to happen. So then, I guess the next best thing would be to have a row of sinks right outside the dining facility. But that is not going to happen either. But the cruise lines have come up with a fairly good solution and one that is much simpler and easier to do. They either place the sanitizing solution machines, or a bunch of help at the entrance to the facilities squirting the solution into your cupped hands. So, if the last thing you have done is thoroughly apply the solution prior to entering the facility you have a better than 99% chance of not having contaminated hands.

 

That's good for me. I will not be contaminating you with anything I may have picked up since I recently washed my hands.

[Rick-cruiser]

To say this has been an interesting discussion would be an understatement.

 

There are obviously two sides to the hand sanitizer issue. There are those of us who use it and believe we benefit from its' use. Then, there are those of us who do not use it and do not believe there is any benefit to be derived for its' use.

 

I am not sure without scientific proof positive that either side is going to change the others mind or way of thinking.

 

Much like global warming.

 

The most interesting part of the discussion, at least for me, is swsrail whose father told her she sailed on the Lusitania as an infant months before it was torpedoed and sunk.

 

I can pretty much guess at her age, but will be a gentleman and not mention it. But she is as sharp as a tack. Thanks for your input. I would ask to sit at her table also, but that seems to be getting quite crowded. Perhaps she could meet me for a nice drink prior to dinner. ;)

 

Too late.... I already have dibs to sit/party with her (from another thread)......

 

You'll all have to take a number and wait in line..... :)

 

- Rick

[FinelyCruising]

FinelyCruising, believe me I am not shooting from the hip. I am speaking from an almost 30 year career in Navy medicine (not a doctor).

 

Denny hits the nail right on the head (bolded above). Ideally that would mean that every man, woman and child hit the restroom right outside the dining facilities and thoroughly wash their hands prior to entering the facility. Then keep their hands off of everything until they enter the facility. But that is not going to happen. So then, I guess the next best thing would be to have a row of sinks right outside the dining facility. But that is not going to happen either. But the cruise lines have come up with a fairly good solution and one that is much simpler and easier to do. They either place the sanitizing solution machines, or a bunch of help at the entrance to the facilities squirting the solution into your cupped hands. So, if the last thing you have done is thoroughly apply the solution prior to entering the facility you have a better than 99% chance of not having contaminated hands.

 

That's good for me. I will not be contaminating you with anything I may have picked up since I recently washed my hands.

 

Not true. The second you picked up the menu which has not been sanitized and then touch the salt and pepper shakers and eat your bread you have passed on germs with your spotlessly clean hands to others and to yourself. Germs that were there on those surfaces and touched by many others no matter how much you washed, no matter how much Purell you used before you sat down. Why do you think they remove the S&P shakers? They should remove the menus too!

 

That's what people don't get, that there will always be germs passed on and from things that are already in the dining room and not outside of it. How clean do you think menus really are??? Think about it. ;)

[ikelmay]

That's what people don't get, that there will always be germs passed on and from things that are already in the dining room and not outside of it. How clean do you think menus really are??? Think about it. ;)

 

Am I missing something conceptual about the use of hand sanitizers? Of course you will pick up germs from your menu, your table mates, your cutlery once you are in the dining room. The chances are though, if you have used the sanitizer you are in with a fighting chance of either stopping some of the bugs reaching you, or you passing them on to another person. The mere fact that sanitizers aren't 100% useful at wiping out every germ in the dining room doesn't negate the validity of its use as a preventative measure.

 

Oh and BTW SWS, I wish I had a grandmother as switched on and plugged in as you. Long may you post on CC. You should start your own blog LOL.

[FinelyCruising]

Am I missing something conceptual about the use of hand sanitizers? Of course you will pick up germs from your menu, your table mates, your cutlery once you are in the dining room. The chances are though, if you have used the sanitizer you are in with a fighting chance of either stopping some of the bugs reaching you, or you passing them on to another person. The mere fact that sanitizers aren't 100% useful at wiping out every germ in the dining room doesn't negate the validity of its use as a preventative measure.

 

Oh and BTW SWS, I wish I had a grandmother as switched on and plugged in as you. Long may you post on CC. You should start your own blog LOL.

 

No you are not missing anything. The basic argument is that handwashing must be augmented with sanitizers as determined by the CDC. Or than Sanitizers must be mandary according to the CDC. I think it is clear that is not the case.

 

I am furthering the thinking of some that once the Purell is in your hands when you enter the MDR for example, that you have 'safed off'. That is not the case either by the menu example.

 

So we are back to basic handwashing and use of santiizers to assist in the prevention of the spread of germs. One or the other is a good idea, but it does not have to be both, and after that all you can do is hope for the best. :)

[ChucktownSteve]

How about not putting your hands to your face or eyes after touching anything or anyone (including your spousal unit)? ;)

[SantaFeFan]

So we are back to basic handwashing and use of santiizers to assist in the prevention of the spread of germs. One or the other is a good idea, but it does not have to be both, and after that all you can do is hope for the best. :)

 

After reading most of these posts I ran through how I might get to the MDR from my stateroom after very carefully washing my hand at my bathroom sink:

 

I open the door to the hallway. Hopefully the cabin crew hasn't left anything on the knob for me to catch last time they were in here to clean up.

 

I walk to the nearest elevator to go down to deck five and push the call button. Are there any germs on that button? Then, I enter the elevator and push the 5th deck button. Is there a colony of germs on that button?

 

I exit the elevator and find a chair in one of the lounges for a before dinner drink. During my stay there I touch the menu on the table, possibly a dish with nuts or the like, rest my hand on the arm of the chair, and on the table in front of me. Could any one of them could be covered in germs?

 

I receive my drink and hold the glass that at least three people have touched before me - the person stacking the glasses at the bar, the bar tender, and the waiter. Are all their hands perfectly clean?

 

I touch the bill for my drink, and probably the holder it was delivered in. I then hand my seapass to the waiter, who touches it when taking it back to bar to scan. Who else touches it during the scan? And is the surface he may set it down on clean?

 

The doors open to the dining room, and as I pass the person with the sanitizer I ignore them - after all, I washed my hands in my room so my hands are perfectly clean.

 

Yeah, right!