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Trip Insurance NO GOOD!


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I am so sorry the Original Poster had the terrible problem the family experienced.

 

Perhaps it's time for the U.S. to learn from European Union laws at least when it comes time to this type of travel matter, since it is nobody's intent (except the cruise line) for the passenger and family to be out this money and vacation.

 

Under EU law (EU Package Travel Directive) the cruise line is liable for refunding 100% of your trip cost in this case (no questions ask -- and the cruise line would have refunded you here, no problem). Furthermore, your travel agent would be jointly and severally liable together with the cruise line. (The cruise line could repeat against the airline, but that's the cruise line's concern and you would have been refunded by the cruise line immediately.)

 

You Americans don't seem to want the government to intervene and impose these types of consumer protection laws -- you seem happy to absorb everything through the obligation of purchasing private insurance.

 

Yet time and time again you all get burnt by the insurance company refusing to pay and the cruise line telling you it's not their fault.

 

Well, in the EU in this situation it would be the cruiseline's responsibility 100% and they would have paid up immediately.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

 

If you are saying that the cruiseline pays if you bought air and cruise through them, then I will agree this is how it should be. My guess is the cruiselines would be flying out its passengers a day early though. From all my reading, it was very common in the past for cruiselines to do it this way.

 

However, if you are saying that a traveller who books their own airfare and misses the cruiseship, is still covered if he misses the ship in Europe, then I disagree that the cruiseline should still cover the traveller's losses. I do not think the cruiseline should be responsible to refund money in these cases. As mentioned, in the end, it will just increase the costs for everyone else, and I resent having to pay more for something because of someone else's poor planning.

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First of all the weather that was bad was not in New York State.

 

Delta was our carrier and their hub is Dallas TX which received 12" of snow on Thurs 2/11/10. So flying in a day ahead would not have worked either. We could not get off from work.

 

Also we travel Presidents week and have since 1979 without issue -- of course not always with delta or norwegian.

 

Norwegian sez book with us and we will get you to the ship thats where they lied.

 

Delta lied about the plane being cancelled -- as I have proof it was canceled

 

As far as being on standby -- we were told in Albany by the Delta agent we would be first on the list since they go by time. The Atlanta Delta agent told me I did not pay enough money for my ticket to be on standby. So, I did not think I would jump to the top of the list because I was on a cruise -- but because the Delta Agent in Albany told us we were #1,2,&3 on standby.

 

As far as reading my insurance policy. I did read it. It is in black and white that I am covered for bad weather on page 3 paragraph 4. It does not say the airport needed to be closed for 24 hours. Buffalo Airport was open, Albany was open, Atlanta was open, Miami was open. Dallas TX did not send the planes to these airports so the flights could depart. Delta offered no assistance. I told you we were mobile and could move airports, fly to another airport in FL but they would not even try to help -- they just told him no.

 

As to if my son made it to the airport -- yes he did 2 hours in advance!! He is a seasoned traveler and knew what to do -- not only did they check Delta -- who would not even fly him to the next port -- but he tried other airlines in the Buffalo Airport None of them could guarantee he would arrive in time for the ports. One airline wanted him to pay an additional $2,000. for a flight with no guarantee.

 

SO YES I AM PISSED!!

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Sounds like you just need to get clarification about the cancelled flight.

 

By the way, Dallas is not Delta's hub. Your plane was scheduled to come from there is all.

 

 

As to the talk about doing insurance and covering almost EVERYTHING in Europe. I have mixed feelings about this. Making the airline pay for everything that happens just means the airfare has to be higher. You are buying insurance indirectly. Somebody has to pay for it.

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Nowadays you can fly around most European cities for less than what a taxi costs to get to the airport, and airfares here by law have to be advertised with all taxes and costs included.

 

Long gone (thank god) are the days of the dinosaur, European monopoly in each country. Airfares have never been lower or more competitive.

 

And, getting back to the case we are discussing in this thread, the main difference between the U.S. and Europe is that the cruiseline tries to assert that it is merely the booking agent for the airline in the U.S.

 

However, under EU law, the cruiseline is not considered the booking agent, but rather the "organizer" (which takes on a very special meaning under EU law) and, as such, must assume 100% liability and responsibility for all aspects of the trip.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

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...

However, under EU law, the cruiseline is not considered the booking agent, but rather the "organizer" (which takes on a very special meaning under EU law) and, as such, must assume 100% liability and responsibility for all aspects of the trip...

 

And, this may be part of the reason that trips purchased in Europe are more expensive than what Americans pay. You might be able to get a price match, but if that became the norm, somebody would have to make up the financial variance.

 

As said before, SOMEBODY has to pay. There are no money trees. Some people think they do exist.

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I can't say about Access America, but I did ask the tripinsurance store, who I bought my plan through, if I would be covered for a missed excursion if the ship did not make it to port or was late getting to port. I was told it would not be covered.

 

Are you referring to private excursions, or NCL-sponsored excursions? Surely NCL doesn't charge you for an excursion of theirs that they could not get you to! Right?

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Delta was our carrier and their hub is Dallas TX which received 12" of snow on Thurs 2/11/10. So flying in a day ahead would not have worked either. We could not get off from work.

 

 

As far as being on standby -- we were told in Albany by the Delta agent we would be first on the list since they go by time. The Atlanta Delta agent told me I did not pay enough money for my ticket to be on standby. So, I did not think I would jump to the top of the list because I was on a cruise -- but because the Delta Agent in Albany told us we were #1,2,&3 on standby.

 

QUOTE]

 

Delta's hub is Atlanta, then their secondary hubs. Which has nothing to do with anything here. Weather, caused the cancelation- if they can't get the planes in, they aren't going to fly.

 

What you don't get on the standby issue, is each flight is SEPARATE. From Albany- you were first. Once you are on anther flight, it starts all over again. It involves way more, and likely your connecting flight, was oversold to begin with, then add the canceled numbers, then you move way down the list. I fly standby all the time. The ranks can change in minutes. And the status passengers, and higher priced purchasers go to top- bottom line.

 

You claim all those flights were operating, but you had no alternative? IF you had attempted to get out a day or two earlier, you would have definately increased your chances of success. Unfortunately you ran out of time, with only allowing for a single day. Frankly, arriving "2 hours early" and "knowing what to do", was clearly not the answer. Trying a day or two early would have been a better bet. Hindsight is always frustrating, these are just general comments, that can work, if known.

 

Overall, don't bother thinking an airline is going to take any significant time "helping" you. You are FAR better off, knowing routes, and getting on the phone direct and scrambling for the limited seats.

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Are you referring to private excursions, or NCL-sponsored excursions? Surely NCL doesn't charge you for an excursion of theirs that they could not get you to! Right?

 

I am referring to independently booked excursions.

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I am not sure why you are upset with me. I am just telling you what happened to me and why.

 

So sorry I thought the hub was Dallas -- that is what Delta told me -- again one big lie after another.

 

No way to fly earlier -- plus all arrangements made and paid for -- with no guarantee of reimbursement -- not happening -- would you have paid $2000. for a flight with no guarantee you could make the ship -- I think not -- especially in a 3rd world country again all expenses on us till insurance kicks in -- so I guess that is out too!

 

The problem was the snow in Dallas, Presidents week, and the ship left at 4:00pm.

 

In my opinion maybe cruise lines should have you fly in a day early -- but to do that for 4 people is quite expensive when you are docked for the day at work (nothing can be done about that), pay the deviation fee, hotel, food, etc. Last time it was $900. extra. That was not in the budget. But if this was a requirement that would have been fine.

 

 

Our weather was clear sailing on the east coast. The bad weather was in the center of the USA, we thought we were good, as our connection was in Atlanta not Chicago.

 

I am not giving up. Like I said I have the proof that the flight was canceled not delayed per the internet.

 

I will keep you posted. Just don't shot the messanger I was just telling people what happened to us so that they could ask the necessary questions. This post was not ment to start an argument.

 

And to those who supported me thanks. Like I said I will keep you posted. Afterall that is how we all learn.

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It's always been good advice to buy travel insurance outside the cruise line. It's cheaper and you will definitely get a copy of the policy with time to accept or reject.

 

 

OP did...and it clearly didn't help. At least they would have gotten 75% back, plus up to $500 in trip delay coverage if they had chosen the Berkely Care package NCL offers...

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So I think the son's problem is covered under trip delay not trip cancellation part of the insurance.

 

His flight was cancelled but he was still obligated to travel to the ship with expenses refunded under the trip delay part. did he contact the insurer to get them to help him book the trip delay part?? His cruise was not cancelled, his air was which caused travel delay. Please let us know the details of how this works.

 

And saying that NCL markets an implication of service compared what is clearly documented in the contract is a good lesson for those who believe marketing but it will not do any good for anything else. At one time RCI actually had on their website that if you had cruiseair that would guarantee you getting to the ship. That was in direct contradiction to their contract which says it trumps all other communication and it did disappear from the the website quickly. I imagine you ran into some marketing hype as well but it's the contract that holds.

 

Be patient and hopefully it will all clear up.

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If the passenger had been from Europe and booked the trip in Europe, none of this would have happened.

 

The EU cruise contracts do not say what they say in the United States. The EU contracts reflect the laws here, under which NCL would have had full responsibility in this case.

 

Under the same EU travel protection laws, anything mentioned in brochures, on websites, advertising, etc., is just as legally binding as the "contract". So what RCCL put on its website would have been contractually binding here in Europe, no matter what the small print of its contract might have said.

 

Isn't there a Ralph Nader of travel in the United States? In the 70's and 80's you folks had a good consumer protection lobby, which is how you got all of the credit card chargeback rights, etc.

 

But what about today?

 

Or is the insurance lobby in the U.S. just so strong that the U.S. government is prevented from enacting laws which would render travel insurance much less significant?

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

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I am not giving up. Like I said I have the proof that the flight was canceled not delayed per the internet.

 

I will keep you posted. Just don't shot the messanger I was just telling people what happened to us so that they could ask the necessary questions. This post was not ment to start an argument.

 

And to those who supported me thanks. Like I said I will keep you posted. Afterall that is how we all learn.

 

Your post is really appreciated. No matter what your outcome is, your post helps educate other travelers. Thank you for taking the time to post your unfortunate trip experiences.

 

There are many misconceptions out there about travel insurance. This forum helped educate me on travel insurance, and I have done a lot of reading, especially on the tripinsurancestore website. They are a great source of information. After reading about many traveler's troubles with trip insurance, I knew what kinds of questions to ask them. (they have great chat, email and phone support). One thing I learned is you do have to keep in communication with your insurance company when things go awry. You can't just take things into your own hands and assume your travel insurance will cover you when you contact them later.

 

I learned to never trust a travel agent in regards to insurance. I am not trying to make you feel bad, but to just let others out there know that they need to do their own research. Travel agents carry a particular insurance and that is what they sell. Very few bother spending the time to learn about travel insurance. I only buy my insurance through the tripinsurance store. I communicate with them via their chat and then print out any communications that I have with them. They sell several different company's plans. The price is the same as if you bought through the company direct. In fact, when you buy it online through their website, you go directly to the company's website to actually purchase the insurance. I like purchasing through them, because I feel they would help with a claim if I did not understand it. If I was denied by the insurance company, at least I think they could tell me if it was a justified denial. Working only with the insurance company, I would feel helpless.

 

I do hope you will come back and let us know your outcome. We all need to know the ins and outs of insurance companies. Situations like yours help the rest of us get educated and learn to ask the right questions when we buy insurance. I can't tell you how many hours I researched travel insurance for my last three trips. Each time I learned something new. Most of the time what I learn is not good.I just learn of more situations that the insurance doesn't cover. For future travels I am considering just getting the medical coverage. It seems like you pay a whole lot more for the trip delay/cancellation insurance and I do not think it is worth it.

 

Good luck and let us know your outcome.

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If the passenger had been from Europe and booked the trip in Europe, none of this would have happened.

 

The EU cruise contracts do not say what they say in the United States. The EU contracts reflect the laws here, under which NCL would have had full responsibility in this case.

 

Under the same EU travel protection laws, anything mentioned in brochures, on websites, advertising, etc., is just as legally binding as the "contract". So what RCCL put on its website would have been contractually binding here in Europe, no matter what the small print of its contract might have said.

 

Isn't there a Ralph Nader of travel in the United States? In the 70's and 80's you folks had a good consumer protection lobby, which is how you got all of the credit card chargeback rights, etc.

 

But what about today?

 

Or is the insurance lobby in the U.S. just so strong that the U.S. government is prevented from enacting laws which would render travel insurance much less significant?

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

 

Yes, our consumer protection laws are lacking. I do agree if the cruiseline is booking your air, they should have to take care of you. However, if that would become the case here, I am quite sure the cruiselines would make you fly out a day early and tack on a hotel for you, which will cost the traveler more money. Otherwise they would be losing a whole lot of money to cover their losses when planes have delays and the passengers don't make it to the ship on time.

 

What happens in Europe if you book your air independently and there is a delay and you miss your cruise?

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In any fair society, when a disaster such as this happens where nobody is at fault, the consumer is not intended to bear the financial loss.

 

In Europe, that situation is taken care of by our strong travel protection laws which in 99% of cases place the financial responsibility on the "organizer" of the trip (i.e. the cruise line, tour operator, travel agency, etc.). To cover this potential liability, all of these entities now have their own insurance, bonds, escrows, etc.

 

In the United States, if that solution is not agreeable to your culture and society, there are a myriad of other solutions which can be reached to achieve the same goal:

 

1) Force the insurance companies to provide blanket coverage in this type of situation;

 

2) Have the cruise companies or tour operators include standard insurance in every trip they sell. The insurance pool would be increased so much that this compulsory insurance would cost the cruise lines or tour companies pennies and would not necessarily increase the cost of the trip;

 

3) Enact consumer laws against abusive, unilateral adhesion contracts so that the cruise lines and tour companies cannot write whatever nonsense they want in their contracts, a good deal of which would be held null and void if tested in court and hold them responsible for misleading advertising.

 

Your system now seems to advocate the cruise line refusing any responsibility or liability, passing the buck to the insurance company or to the consumer's own financial loss, and the insurance company looking for any excuse not to pay the claim.

 

We have an awful lot of things to fix here in Europe. However, fortunately things like consumer protection, medical care, pensions, etc. aren't one of those things.

 

The cruise line and the insurance company in the United States are trying to avoid their responsibilities. This, in my opinion, is shameful, in that whatever system you may choose and legislate, the intent is not for the consumer to suffer the loss, which is why I believe that the U.S. travel protection system, as it stands now, is in a shambles.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

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In any fair society, when a disaster such as this happens where nobody is at fault, the consumer is not intended to bear the financial loss.

 

In Europe, that situation is taken care of by our strong travel protection laws which in 99% of cases place the financial responsibility on the "organizer" of the trip (i.e. the cruise line, tour operator, travel agency, etc.). To cover this potential liability, all of these entities now have their own insurance, bonds, escrows, etc.

 

In the United States, if that solution is not agreeable to your culture and society, there are a myriad of other solutions which can be reached to achieve the same goal:

 

1) Force the insurance companies to provide blanket coverage in this type of situation;

 

2) Have the cruise companies or tour operators include standard insurance in every trip they sell. The insurance pool would be increased so much that this compulsory insurance would cost the cruise lines or tour companies pennies and would not necessarily increase the cost of the trip;

 

3) Enact consumer laws against abusive, unilateral adhesion contracts so that the cruise lines and tour companies cannot write whatever nonsense they want in their contracts, a good deal of which would be held null and void if tested in court and hold them responsible for misleading advertising.

 

Your system now seems to advocate the cruise line refusing any responsibility or liability, passing the buck to the insurance company or to the consumer's own financial loss, and the insurance company looking for any excuse not to pay the claim.

 

We have an awful lot of things to fix here in Europe. However, fortunately things like consumer protection, medical care, pensions, etc. aren't one of those things.

 

The cruise line and the insurance company in the United States are trying to avoid their responsibilities. This, in my opinion, is shameful, in that whatever system you may choose and legislate, the intent is not for the consumer to suffer the loss, which is why I believe that the U.S. travel protection system, as it stands now, is in a shambles.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

 

Why shouldn't the consumer bear the loss? If I buy a car and then wreck it on my way home, the car dealership isn't going to give me my money back.

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I'm I the only one who is reading she purchased "air" through NCL? Don't the cruises market this overpriced "add-on" with gurantees to help you if have an air issue? Every cruise line brochure sings the praises of why we should book the air through them!

 

This is getting so long and drawnout I am not sure what is what now, but if I understand this correctly and I am pretty sure I do, the cruise line might help but they are not responsible for refunding the cost of the cruise. They will help (in some cases) with a delay, assisting in getting the cruiser to the next port. It sounds like sonny was unable to get on the flight due to cancellation and pretty much gave up. I do hope the OP gets some refund but I still can't understand why she would thinks NCL is at fault.

 

Nita

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To one of the posters above -- we are talking about a case of force majeure, where nobody was at fault, and who should bear the financial responsibility in such case.

 

At no time have any of these discussions been about cases in which the passenger is to blame.

 

Therefore, your comparison about buying a car and wrecking it (assuming that you were at fault and the car was not defective) does not apply to this case.

 

To the poster who thinks I am rude and condescending, I try to provide information from the European perspective for two reasons: 1) There are a great many Europeans who read and participate in these forums, and I think it is important for them to know that many of these situations being argued from the U.S. point of view do not apply to them because they are protected by a different legal system and different business practices; 2) I think it is important that people from the U.S. realize that not everything around the world is done the way it is done in the United States and perhaps there are things that they can learn from other systems.

 

There are many things I feel shameful about in Europe -- yes we have strong consumer protection, universal healthcare, strong labor laws and generous pensions -- yet countries are on the verge of bankruptcy because of that.

 

However, all of that will get solved in the markets, through taxes, etc., but I do feel that it is shameful if any society (in this case, the United States) makes the consumer bear the financial burden of a natural disaster or event of force majeure, when the system can easily come up with less burdensome ways to distribute that loss and parties who can bear it more easily than an individual family.

 

I am not being condescending, but quite the contrary I have written extensively on cruise critic since the volcano crisis began -- I don't need to waste so many hours writing explanations to try to help people if my goal was to be condescending.

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

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We are discussing how NCL handled or mishandled a passenger.

 

NCL may have one and the same ship departing from a given port on a given day, but the peculiarity of the cruise business is that the same ship may be booked by several NCL offices operating all around the world.

 

I, personally, believe that a passenger who may not have been handled properly by NCL's U.S. office has a right to know how a passenger in the same situation was handled by NCL's European office.

 

Unless I am mistaken, you have not participated in the discussion ensuing in this thread. If your only participation in this discussion is limited to your opinion that I am off-topic, then in my opinion, at least, your comment is unfortunate.

 

All of these incidents regarding the volcano are intertwined and, because the whole matter happened in Europe, I think it is important for U.S. passengers to know the system here -- many of those passengers indeed flew on airlines that were subject to the EU travel laws and it is important for them to learn what they are entitled to.

 

If you don't think this is all related, then I will gladly start a thread entitled "NCL U.S. and NCL Europe handle the volcano incident differently" -- then what will you say?

 

Kind regards,

 

Gunther and Uta

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First of all the weather that was bad was not in New York State.

 

Delta was our carrier and their hub is Dallas TX which received 12" of snow on Thurs 2/11/10. So flying in a day ahead would not have worked either. We could not get off from work.

 

Also we travel Presidents week and have since 1979 without issue -- of course not always with delta or norwegian.

 

Norwegian sez book with us and we will get you to the ship thats where they lied.

 

Delta lied about the plane being cancelled -- as I have proof it was canceled

 

As far as being on standby -- we were told in Albany by the Delta agent we would be first on the list since they go by time. The Atlanta Delta agent told me I did not pay enough money for my ticket to be on standby. So, I did not think I would jump to the top of the list because I was on a cruise -- but because the Delta Agent in Albany told us we were #1,2,&3 on standby.

 

As far as reading my insurance policy. I did read it. It is in black and white that I am covered for bad weather on page 3 paragraph 4. It does not say the airport needed to be closed for 24 hours. Buffalo Airport was open, Albany was open, Atlanta was open, Miami was open. Dallas TX did not send the planes to these airports so the flights could depart. Delta offered no assistance. I told you we were mobile and could move airports, fly to another airport in FL but they would not even try to help -- they just told him no.

 

As to if my son made it to the airport -- yes he did 2 hours in advance!! He is a seasoned traveler and knew what to do -- not only did they check Delta -- who would not even fly him to the next port -- but he tried other airlines in the Buffalo Airport None of them could guarantee he would arrive in time for the ports. One airline wanted him to pay an additional $2,000. for a flight with no guarantee.

 

SO YES I AM PISSED!!

 

ok, you have a right to be pissed, not paying enough to be on standby, that is a new one and our entire family is in the travel business or has been. As for NCL, I am sorry, they are not responsible in weather related situations to get you to someplace they can't. No one is, as a matter of fact. Natural disasters or weather conditions are an act of nature. It does seem to me Delta lied about certain things, but whether they could have gotten you son to the ship is a question, where you insurance comes in, that I do not know.

 

Nita

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Sounds like you just need to get clarification about the cancelled flight.

 

By the way, Dallas is not Delta's hub. Your plane was scheduled to come from there is all.

 

 

As to the talk about doing insurance and covering almost EVERYTHING in Europe. I have mixed feelings about this. Making the airline pay for everything that happens just means the airfare has to be higher. You are buying insurance indirectly. Somebody has to pay for it.

 

Thanks, I didn't want to bring that up as well. It was until about a year or so ago, they hardly fly in and out anymore.

 

Nita

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Norwegian sez book with us and we will get you to the ship thats where they lied.

 

...

 

He is a seasoned traveler and knew what to do -- not only did they check Delta -- who would not even fly him to the next port -- but he tried other airlines in the Buffalo Airport None of them could guarantee he would arrive in time for the ports. One airline wanted him to pay an additional $2,000. for a flight with no guarantee.

Valid concerns, but maybe not as much a worry as you fear.

 

First, NCL does not guarantee to get you to the ship - they can't because they do not control the transportation to the ship. The salesperson who tries to sell you insurance may say that, but will salespeople lie to make a sale? Ask any salesperson about that.

 

Second, it sounds like you were asking for Delta to pay for the person to get to the next port. That's not their responsibility. They only agreed to take you from A to B... and that is what they should do. But in your case once the ship leaves port you no longer need to get from A to B. You need to get to C.

 

The ship is fairly slow you you would have one or two extra days to make the port. Missing the ship there is not too likely. And I think if you would cruise to a third world country, you would fly there as well.

 

The unused ticket had some value, so they could probably have applied some of that toward the cost of the flight to port C, and the passenger pays the rest, but gets reimbursed later. This is of course after you call the travel insurance company and verify it.

 

The insurance companies have hotlines with people who can work through these situations. It is a benefit you pay for, so you may as well use it when you need it.

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This thread had me call NCL about the travel insurance I bought for my Epic cruise in December. I was sort of misinformed. You get 100% credit for future cruise for loss of job, family death, or medical emergency. You get 75% credit for future cruise if you cancel for any reason. Missing a flight or chanigng your mind for any reason would get you at least 75% credit for another cruise.

When I bought the insurance, I thought they told me it was a refund and not credit. There is a difference. NCL also told me that you can cancel the insurance anytime up to your last payment. NCL uses Berkley Care insurance.

I booked such an expensive cruise almost a full year away so of course I needed something to protect me. I understand NCL also needs something to protect them. I am keeping my insurance at this time.

Does anyone know of a travel insurance that gives refunds and not credit? I paid $249 for each passenger for the insurance. Is this a good rate?

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This thread had me call NCL about the travel insurance I bought for my Epic cruise in December. I was sort of misinformed. You get 100% credit for future cruise for loss of job, family death, or medical emergency. You get 75% credit for future cruise if you cancel for any reason. Missing a flight or chanigng your mind for any reason would get you at least 75% credit for another cruise.

When I bought the insurance, I thought they told me it was a refund and not credit. There is a difference. NCL also told me that you can cancel the insurance anytime up to your last payment. NCL uses Berkley Care insurance.

I booked such an expensive cruise almost a full year away so of course I needed something to protect me. I understand NCL also needs something to protect them. I am keeping my insurance at this time.

Does anyone know of a travel insurance that gives refunds and not credit? I paid $249 for each passenger for the insurance. Is this a good rate?

 

I would suggest that you go to www.insuremytrip.com, which lets you compare many different companies and packages. You could probably cancel your Berkley Care and buy a different package for much less than you are paying now, but only you know what will fit your particular needs. Some companies offer cancel for any reason (for a fee) or waive the pre-existing condition clause (also for a fee). The website gives you phone numbers, too, so you can call a rep and talk to them.

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