Carnival cruise ship bartender accused of raping teen

[Crusin6]

ALLEGEDLY raped her.

 

Why don't you let the guy get convicted before you tattoo "RAPIST" across his forehead.

HUH? How can a 30yo allegedly rape a 14yo? Sex with a 14yo by a 30 yo man is statutory rape. He admits to sex with her, right? She is 14 and he is 30, right? Statutory rape, right? If you think not, then what could it be called? 14yo girl...30yo man...16 year age difference. It is only allegedly if he didn't admit it and then yes.. would have to be proven in a court of law. But he admitted it and in this country...unless the parents agree in some states that it is OK for their 14yo to marry an adult...it is called statutory rape.

 

Consent has no bearing. Nor does the time of day/night or where the parents were..or if they were negligent.

[LemurCat]

Ok, I said allegedly in every post except that one.

And in all honesty, the guy supposedly copped to having sex with her (which is why I said 'assualted' and not 'raped') It is a crime either way

 

It's a crime, but it's not a conviction. Do you know how many alleged criminals recant their confessions by the time the cases go to trial?

[Aknot]

I dont want to seem mean to anyone here but as I read through this thread, I began to wonder what I would feel if this were MY daughter and I came accross a group of people discussing it like this. I think I would be very upset. I know this is news and all but still what if this mom or grandmom or other relative were to find this site or they could even be a member of CC. I know most are being respectful but there are those who seem to be blaming mom and dad. I know that our children are our repsonsiblity but I just dont think in this instance that this is the thread for pointing out the parents parenting skills.

 

Please dont flame...I am just the mom of a daughter and grandmother of a grand daughter and would not like to see "their story" on here.

 

There is no blame on Mom and Dad. There is the question of their responsibility they had in "protecting" their daughter from this or any other type of danger.

 

I don't think anyone here is saying it is the Parents fault. However they were a little lax in their responsibilities as a parent. However.... Hindsight is 20-20.

 

Also what constitutes "night"? 8pm? 730pm?

[gtouch]

He can claim he's the Dali Lama or the King of Egypt and it doesn't matter. He is presumed innocent until proven otherwise. His confession is just evidence until judgment is rendered.

 

What a strange answer. But OK feel how you want about it. Just another opinion.

[LemurCat]

HUH? How can a 30yo allegedly rape a 14yo? Sex with a 14yo by a 30 yo man is statutory rape. He admits to sex with her, right? She is 14 and he is 30, right? Statutory rape, right? If you think not, then what could it be called? 14yo girl...30yo man...16 year age difference. It is only allegedly if he didn't admit it and then yes.. would have to be proven in a court of law. But he admitted it and in this country...unless the parents agree in some states that it is OK for their 14yo to marry an adult...it is called statutory rape.

 

Consent has no bearing. Nor does the time of day/night or where the parents were..or if they were negligent.

 

It's not about the action, it's about the court case. We are all innocent until proven otherwise. If it's as clear-cut as everyone in this forum is saying it is, it should be a homerun for the DA.

[halos]

It's a crime, but it's not a conviction. Do you know how many alleged criminals recant their confessions by the time the cases go to trial?

and again...this is not a trial. I am not a juror. This is a message board.

 

If he can claim he's the King of Egypt, I can assume that he's guilty of a crime.

[Aknot]

What a strange answer. But OK feel how you want about it. Just another opinion.

 

Well that is not an opinion. That is fact. Until proven guilty by a Court of Law you are (for all intent purposes) not.

 

A strange answer is convicting someone when you don't even know the facts. Witch Hunt comes to mind.

[Crusin6]

He can claim he's the Dali Lama or the King of Egypt and it doesn't matter. He is presumed innocent until proven otherwise. His confession is just evidence until judgment is rendered.

Ok..you make a good legal point here...but just to get it straight..while he does need to be convicted:) or plea bargained:(..it in no way justifies sex with a 14yo by a 30yo.

[Aknot]

we are all guilty until proven otherwise.

 

hello russia!

 

 

;)

[LemurCat]

What a strange answer. But OK feel how you want about it. Just another opinion.

 

No, that's not an opinion. That's a very short, thumb-nail sketch of how American Juris Prudence works. Y'all can say the guy's guilty all you want on this forum, but you're not the judge and jury. Until he's convicted, the allegations have yet to be proven true. :rolleyes: What? Did you all stop watching Law & Order after Jerry Orbach died or something? I'm not defending this guy, merely pointing out the fallacy in everyone's statement that this guy is criminally guilty of this crime. He isn't. He hasn't been tried yet.

[Crusin6]

It's not about the action, it's about the court case. We are all guilty until proven otherwise. If it's as clear-cut as everyone in this forum is saying it is, it should be a homerun for the DA.

don't you mean innocent until proven otherwise?

[LemurCat]

Ok..you make a good legal point here...but just to get it straight..while he does need to be convicted:) or plea bargained:(..it in no way justifies sex with a 14yo by a 30yo.

 

Morally, you may have issues with it. Some cultures do not. Legally, that depends on the jurisdiction the alleged crime takes place in.

 

Not hedging, but personally, I think it's deplorable. I find "men" like this skeevy as hell and dangerous.

[Aknot]

No, that's not an opinion. That's a very short, thumb-nail sketch of how American Juris Prudence works. Y'all can say the guy's guilty all you want on this forum, but you're not the judge and jury. Until he's convicted, the allegations have yet to be proven true. :rolleyes: What? Did you all stop watching Law & Order after Jerry Orbach died or something? I'm not defending this guy, merely pointing out the fallacy in everyone's statement that this guy is criminally guilty of this crime. He isn't. He hasn't been tried yet.

 

Scary thing is there have been times when people got over zealous and ended up ruining a case.

[gtouch]

Well that is not an opinion. That is fact. Until proven guilty by a Court of Law you are (for all intent purposes) not.

 

A strange answer is convicting someone when you don't even know the facts. Witch Hunt comes to mind.

 

Apparantly you didn't read my original. That is an assault occured by his own ommission that he knew she was 14 and he had sex with her. But I said the court would have to decide if there was a crime. So I guess you didn't read that.

[LemurCat]

don't you mean innocent until proven otherwise?

 

Yeah, I do. :p

[LemurCat]

hello russia!

 

 

;)

 

See, I mentioned British Juris Prudence, which works the other way 'round and got myself confuzzled.

[SouthernCaribbean]

So wouldn't that state that it is "ruled" by US law when in international waters? Or does Carnival fly under another Countries flag?

Carnival ships fly under Bahamas,Panama and Liberia flags

 

But the Feds (FBI) has jurisdiction if that's what you are wondering

 

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/may06/cruise_crime052206.htm

 

when a crime does occur at sea, several factors determine whether the U.S. has legal jurisdiction. A complicated weave of international law applies, but as a rule, the FBI leads investigations of the following scenarios:

• If the ship is U.S.-owned, regardless of the nationality of the victim or perpetrator;

  
  

• If the crime occurs in U.S. territorial waters (within 12 miles of the coast);

  
  

• If the victim or perpetrator is a U.S. national on a ship that departed or is arriving at a U.S. port;

  
  

• If it's an act of terrorism against the U.S.

  
  

When a crime occurs outside U.S. jurisdiction, FBI legal attachés work with local officials and the authorities conducting the investigations. Most countries welcome FBI assistance in collecting evidence, and in some cases they invite our agents and analysts to play a larger role

[kelz66]

No, that's not an opinion. That's a very short, thumb-nail sketch of how American Juris Prudence works. Y'all can say the guy's guilty all you want on this forum, but you're not the judge and jury. Until he's convicted, the allegations have yet to be proven true. :rolleyes: What? Did you all stop watching Law & Order after Jerry Orbach died or something? I'm not defending this guy, merely pointing out the fallacy in everyone's statement that this guy is criminally guilty of this crime. He isn't. He hasn't been tried yet.

 

people just love to post their opinion as fact.....you can't cure ignorance. :rolleyes:

 

some people are beyond help...lol

[Aknot]

Apparantly you didn't read my original. That is an assault occured by his own ommission that he knew she was 14 and he had sex with her. But I said the court would have to decide if there was a crime. So I guess you didn't read that.

 

I read what you responded to...

 

Lets see...

 

He can claim he's the Dali Lama or the King of Egypt and it doesn't matter. He is presumed innocent until proven otherwise. His confession is just evidence until judgment is rendered.

 

Which you responded:

What a strange answer. But OK feel how you want about it. Just another opinion.

 

He still has not been convicted. So until proven guilty in a court of law he is innocent.

[LemurCat]

Apparantly you didn't read my original. That is an assault occured by his own ommission that he knew she was 14 and he had sex with her. But I said the court would have to decide if there was a crime. So I guess you didn't read that.

 

An ALLEGED assault. There is not crime until the court has ruled that one has happened. Obviously there is very strong evidence of a crime, as as District Attorney was able to bring charges and a judge signed a warrant for arrest. But that still doesn't make the actions criminal. They have to be judged so by a judge or jury.

[halos]

An ALLEGED assault. There is not crime until the court has ruled that one has happened. Obviously there is very strong evidence of a crime, as as District Attorney was able to bring charges and a judge signed a warrant for arrest. But that still doesn't make the actions criminal. They have to be judged so by a judge or jury.

I think everyone is aware of this...the fact is that with the information provided, some of us have formed opinions on the matter.

I'm not 100% sure the info given was accurate...but as it stands, from what I read, the guy is guilty of having sex with a minor.

[janetz]

Anyone could conjure up a story about this. They were familiar with the man. I remember 14. She easily could have developed a crush on him, and was out on deck waiting for him to finish his shift. We don't really know. I know during the day, I would let my teens roam the ship but at night? Not alone. No way. Maybe in a small group, but never alone. I'm not convinced it started out as rape. It's just CALLED that because of her age. He was wrong, yes, but in this situation so were the parents and I think she was way too trusting of someone she didn't know. But thats how kids are. They think nothing can happen to them, and if it WAS a crush or something, well then she probably wasn't thinking much at all. I feel sorry for the family. Lessons learned the hard way!

 

 

What the heck? :eek: You seem to know exactly how it happened. Sorry but I find your post insensitive and ignorant. Hopefully it never happens to anyone in your family. Rape is a horrible horrible thing that the VICTIM lives with for a lifetime.

 

Everytime there is a thread like this stupid people make stupid comments.

[kelz66]

I think everyone is aware of this...the fact is that with the information provided, some of us have formed opinions on the matter.

I'm not 100% sure the info given was accurate...but as it stands, from what I read, the guy is guilty of having sex with a minor.

 

in your opinion.

[halos]

in your opinion.

 

yes...in my opinion. ;) as I perfectly stated above that sentence....

[Aknot]

Carnival ships fly under Bahamas,Panama and Liberia flags

 

But the Feds (FBI) has jurisdiction if that's what you are wondering

 

http://www.fbi.gov/page2/may06/cruise_crime052206.htm

 

when a crime does occur at sea, several factors determine whether the U.S. has legal jurisdiction. A complicated weave of international law applies, but as a rule, the FBI leads investigations of the following scenarios:

• If the ship is U.S.-owned, regardless of the nationality of the victim or perpetrator;

  
  

• If the crime occurs in U.S. territorial waters (within 12 miles of the coast);

  
  

• If the victim or perpetrator is a U.S. national on a ship that departed or is arriving at a U.S. port;

  
  

• If it's an act of terrorism against the U.S.

  
  

When a crime occurs outside U.S. jurisdiction, FBI legal attachés work with local officials and the authorities conducting the investigations. Most countries welcome FBI assistance in collecting evidence, and in some cases they invite our agents and analysts to play a larger role

 

Thanks SC. However is leading an investigation the same as being able to convict?

 

Also further along those line in that same link: On cruises, meanwhile, their transient nature can make investigations difficult. When possible, agents meet vessels before docking to conduct interviews. In some cases—if witnesses have dispersed, too much time has elapsed, or alcohol is involved—cases are difficult to prosecute.

 

I wonder if the FBI violated anything by administering the Poly. And are Polys still admissible in court?

 

Hope the law didnt mess up.