Reducing tip percentage.

[smeyer418]

.....yea and please ask which country we get the phrase "Shanghaied"from.... how some sailors were "selected" to sail.;)

yes but only if they expect you to tip when you are Shanghaied. The point is simply that while the US companies(mostly) that own the cruise lines continued it, it wasn't an American invention. Cunard is owned by Carnival now. and I am just as happy with out a Queen.

[navybankerteacher]

One thing that the "pay them a fair wage" people ignore is the fact that there is a great disparity in annual incomes and, consequently, living standards around the world. The fact is that the reason cruising is within the price range of the vast majority of CC posters is that people from the "third world" - and others who cannot find comparably paid work at home, are willing to work on cruise lines under the compensation agrrangements which are in place.

 

Yes, in a cosmic sense, it is unfair: people in the Western world enjoy disposable income well in excess of what it would be if all the world's annual compensation were divided exactly evenly among everyone in the world. Many CC posters could not cruise at all if income was thus "fairly" shared.

 

Additionally, if mass market cruise lines were to pay all their staff - no tips included - wages comparable to what New Yorkers, Liverpudlians, Newfies, or whoever currently enjoy, the cost of a cruise would drive many away. The net result would be that those cruise line jobs would not exist at all: so who would benefit?

[paul929207]

Let's face it, eightofninekev, we on this side of the pond are never going to agree with our American cousins. IMO there can never be justification to pay staff a slave wage and the fact that they don't come under US labour laws, like someone earlier said, is inexcusable. OK so the ships may be registered in oompa loompa land or wherever, but they are ostensibly American ships, using American currency and all booking is done through the US. It is therefore deplorable to pay staff so poorly. Pay them a decent wage and reward those that are exceptional by way of a tip.

They are not US ships. Some of them only rarely call on US ports. Many of them call on UK ports. Why aren't they subject to UK labor laws? Is that also "deplorable"?

[smeyer418]

For the most part the crews are happy with the current system. What has happened recently is because of "freestyle" and not having the same server everyday certain cruisers reduced the suggested amount and left nothing. Also with the increase in the number of Europeans traveling and their unfamiliarity with the custom some people either didn't tip or removed the auto-tip altogether. So many lines made the suggested amount an opt out system or in NCL's case or Celebrity for its anytime dinning made it mandatory. Azamara increased its base fare by 25% and included the base tip in the fare. Some lines still have opt in- some lines-the more expensive ones have a no tipping policy(and I don't believe for one minute that the service suffers on those lines). Good service is more a result of good training, supervision and other motivations for the crew to do their job anyway.

 

So until its in the base fare those of you who remove it because its not your way are only hurting the hard working crew that you seem so fond of screwing.

 

For some people who are so fond of custom and precedence your insistence of that your way is the right way is just downright niggardly(please look it up it means cheap to the point of being Scrooge...).

 

I don't have a problem with it being added to the fare knowing that it will probably cost me more to do so....but then you will have something else to complain about....

[househunter]

Surely the WAGES should be paid by the ship. A tip should be discretionary upon good service and not something forced upon you.

 

If the wages were to be paid by the cruiseling, the fares we pay would have to go up. The only reason that restaurant owners are able to pay their workers a decent wage in the UK is because the customer is paying it in the bill. It all comes out the same in the end. Either low price plus tip or higher price to start with.

[smeyer418]

BTW this whole discussion is nothing new. I have XM radio with the old style stories on it. They had a Fibber Mcgee and Molly episode from 1941. They had just returned from a trip to Alaska(which included a cruise)....and Molly asks Fibber how it was to be home...and Fibber says "Home- means you don't have to tip"....

[chrisdobb]

I feel this whole tipping thing is an outrage, why do I have to pay twice for the same thing? if the cruise companies paid reasonable wages and did not openly advertise the salary they pay as being dependent on the level of passengers tips the price of cruises would go up - fine, so now the cruise company would have to ensure the passengers got value for money from every member of the crew.

Also one reason most cruise ships are registered offshore is to avoid having to pay the minimum wage.

I am shortly to go on a cruise with Princess cruises (out of Los Angeles) and I fully intent to get all gratuities removed from my cabin account. The crew are paid by the company (poorly or otherwise is the companies business) to work in a profesional maner and to a high standard this is what I am paying for, should certain crew members give a higher standard of work or go out of their way to make my holiday more enjoyable I am very happy to tip them accordingly, but I will not be made to tip just to lift their wage to an acceptable level, that is the companies responsibility.

I have worked all my life and I have received tips on occasion, however every time this has happened I know I have gone the extra mile and therefore the tip was appreciated, not because I needed it to make a wage but because I was happy to know my client was suitably impressed with my service.

The tipping level on Princess cruise is $10.50 per person per night, on a 15 night cruise that equates to $157.50 per passenger - the ship holds 1970 passengers so the total tips collected is $310,275, as the total crew numbers are 900 this would equate to $344.75 per crew member, however not all crew members share in this money. The bar staff, cleaners and utility staff and casino staff and spa staff do not get a cut, so the actual payment level is much higher, this is used to bring the wage paid by the company to a reasonable level.

I am now retired and my wife and I live on not a lot of money, however my choice and I am not complaining, but should I be able to find a low paid job that offered that level of extra I would jump at it.

As I said at the beginning tipping, when it is expected, is an outrage.

[njhorseman]

I feel this whole tipping thing is an outrage, why do I have to pay twice for the same thing? if the cruise companies paid reasonable wages and did not openly advertise the salary they pay as being dependent on the level of passengers tips the price of cruises would go up - fine, so now the cruise company would have to ensure the passengers got value for money from every member of the crew.

Also one reason most cruise ships are registered offshore is to avoid having to pay the minimum wage.

I am shortly to go on a cruise with Princess cruises (out of Los Angeles) and I fully intent to get all gratuities removed from my cabin account. The crew are paid by the company (poorly or otherwise is the companies business) to work in a profesional maner and to a high standard this is what I am paying for, should certain crew members give a higher standard of work or go out of their way to make my holiday more enjoyable I am very happy to tip them accordingly, but I will not be made to tip just to lift their wage to an acceptable level, that is the companies responsibility.

I have worked all my life and I have received tips on occasion, however every time this has happened I know I have gone the extra mile and therefore the tip was appreciated, not because I needed it to make a wage but because I was happy to know my client was suitably impressed with my service.

The tipping level on Princess cruise is $10.50 per person per night, on a 15 night cruise that equates to $157.50 per passenger - the ship holds 1970 passengers so the total tips collected is $310,275, as the total crew numbers are 900 this would equate to $344.75 per crew member, however not all crew members share in this money. The bar staff, cleaners and utility staff and casino staff and spa staff do not get a cut, so the actual payment level is much higher, this is used to bring the wage paid by the company to a reasonable level.

I am now retired and my wife and I live on not a lot of money, however my choice and I am not complaining, but should I be able to find a low paid job that offered that level of extra I would jump at it.

As I said at the beginning tipping, when it is expected, is an outrage.

 

But you're not paying twice for the same thing, because the fare you're paying would have to be much higher than than it is if the crew were paid directly by the cruise line at an amount equivalent to what they earn from the tips or service charge. Tipped crew get paid about $50-$100 per month by the cruise line. Can you live on a $100 monthly salary? If they were paid $1,500 or $2,000 per month by the cruise line, it would be you, the passenger who would be paying for that higher wage in the form of much higher base fares.

 

It's not a matter of who pays it...the passengers always pay it...it's a matter of when the passengers pay it...either up front as part of the fare, or on the back end as part of the tip or service charge.

[chrisdobb]

Fine, if that is the overall price tell me in the beginning, and I will make my choice, do not advertise a price then tell me to pay extra at the end.

I am paying twice

[njhorseman]

Fine, if that is the overall price tell me in the beginning, and I will make my choice, do not advertise a price then tell me to pay extra at the end.

I am paying twice

 

How are you paying twice if you're not paying it as part of your base fare?? You're paying once...the tips. Identify the second way you're paying.

[navybankerteacher]

Fine, if that is the overall price tell me in the beginning, and I will make my choice, do not advertise a price then tell me to pay extra at the end.

I am paying twice

 

Do you ever agree to purchase something for many hundreds, if not a couple thousand, dollars without knowing what you are getting?

 

The line makes it clear that auto-tips are added -- sometimes removable, sometimes not. Tips are part of the deal; paying them is not paying twice for anything. Having them stated separately allows you (on most lines) to adjust what you pay if you advise the line that you are dissatisfied with the service.

 

This is not paying twice for anything - it is a means of actually letting you adjust downward the amount you pay if you feel that you have not received what you originally agreed to pay for.

 

Try thinking about it.

[chrisdobb]

If I am not paying twice where does the 310000$ go, I feel sure the crew get it all!

Price the cruise honestly and accurately and we will all know where we are, yes tips are shown as an extra but if no one paid any tips, as they could, where would the crew's wage come from?

[smeyer418]

As I said above this is the reason that the cruise lines are adding auto-tips as more non US try cruising the culture changes. Europeans are just not used to tipping they are used to having it included in the fare. Even the example above is for a two week cruise so lets say that about half the crew(its actually more its roughly about 2/3) are part of the tipping pool.

 

"The tipping level on Princess cruise is $10.50 per person per night, on a 15 night cruise that equates to $157.50 per passenger - the ship holds 1970 passengers so the total tips collected is $310,275, as the total crew numbers are 900 this would equate to $344.75 per crew member, however not all crew members share in this money. The bar staff, cleaners and utility staff and casino staff and spa staff do not get a cut, so the actual payment level is much higher, this is used to bring the wage paid by the company to a reasonable level."

so about 600 crew share $310, 275 which works out to 356 Euros for slightly over two weeks or 9272E per year assuming they worked every week(which they don't).... no wonder you don't see many Europeans in these jobs anymore.....because of the decline of the almighty US dollar. The officers are now demanding contracts in Euros...and getting them.

 

Who is included in the pool? all the waiters, bus staff cleaning people line chefs laundry personnel head waiters supply room staff(these include people who were traditionally tipped out by the directly tipped crew).

 

so for a two week cruise that roughly works out to about 175 Euros per crew member per week.

 

Is this a living wage in Spain? does your pension pay your more?

 

Its is a terrible thing to count on the largess of others in the form of tips isn't it?

 

But until the fare structure changes you haven't paid it twice. You mind set is just wrong. Who are you punishing by removing it? not the cruise line...IMO...

 

The cruise lines are trying to get a more diverse population to cruise including Europeans. As they are doing this they are having a problem with the non-tipping culture that you show. They either can raise the fare to include it(which would discourage some people to cruise because the cost would be higher) or make the tips mandatory/auto what ever. Its my personal opinion(based on what the non tipping cruise lines do and other factors) that including it in the fare will cost YOU more. Azamara(not a mass cruise line to be sure but owned by Celebrity)raised its fares by 25% to include the base tips and some other items none of which when added together would justify such a large increase-whether the increase will hold in the market place is still an open issue.

Auto tips works fairly well with over 90% of the people leaving them on(from Stats from NCL before they made it mandatory)....but if large number of people start to remove them the cruise lines will have to do something else and IMO adding them to the fare as you suggest will just cost YOU more...

Bueno suerte.

[PS90]

But you're not paying twice for the same thing, because the fare you're paying would have to be much higher than than it is if the crew were paid directly by the cruise line at an amount equivalent to what they earn from the tips or service charge. Tipped crew get paid about $50-$100 per month by the cruise line. Can you live on a $100 monthly salary? If they were paid $1,500 or $2,000 per month by the cruise line, it would be you, the passenger who would be paying for that higher wage in the form of much higher base fares.

 

It's not a matter of who pays it...the passengers always pay it...it's a matter of when the passengers pay it...either up front as part of the fare, or on the back end as part of the tip or service charge.

 

I completely agree with your last paragraph - we will pay for it one way or another. But I disagree with your first paragraph. To determine whether or not a crew member can live on $100 is not relevant, and certainly is not comparable to the living wage of people in another country. It's apples and oranges.

[Silversands]

if all tips are now created equal, no matter how the work is done[/b]" - that is, if tips were just added into the basic cruise fare.

 

I can`t undertand this tipping. Apparently on RCCL if I am on set dining I get to choose who I give a tip to as a reward for good service, but if I select anytime dining I have to pay the tips in advance. What incentive is there for waiters in the diningroom to give me a reasonable table? Even if they sit me in front of the kitchen doors and serve me the left overs I can`t withdraw my "tip". Staff on board Cruises should be given at least the basic hourly rate of the departure port and tips are an added bonus for good service. No person should have to rely on the generosity of others to put food on the table for their children.

I same shame on the Cruise Line companies and all who use them for staying quiet and perpetuating this `slave labour`. An honest hourly rate for an honest hours work should be our cry! I say this after every cruise, but do they listen no! One voice is too quiet but if we all shouted out perhaps this would change things. Please no shouting that this would increase the price of the Cruise - what price are we paying right now for our Cruise if we have to turn our face against the wall and not recognise the injustice to our fellow man?

[bplazo]

Wow, just pay what is suggested for the crew and enjoy your cruise. It is no big deal.

[chrisdobb]

Who is included in the pool? all the waiters, bus staff cleaning people line chefs laundry personnel head waiters supply room staff(these include people who were traditionally tipped out by the directly tipped crew).

 

so for a two week cruise that roughly works out to about 175 Euros per crew member per week.

 

Is this a living wage in Spain? does your pension pay your more?

 

 

You are completely missing my point: Let the cruise company be honest, pay a decent wage to all crew and charge me a proper amount for my fare,no problem, but don't sell me a fare at one price then impose upon me a levy to lift the crew's wage to a resonable level.

No 175euros is not a living wage but it is not my resposibility to pay them any wage, that comes out of the ticket price charged by their employer, and to get back to my original point why advertise jobs then quote a wage which is dependent upon passengers tip: sure prices will rise but now they are rising by a back door method which sells a product at a price which is incomplete, if it costs me more up front thats is OK but pleasea let these companies be honest with everyone.

[bplazo]

I do not think that the cruiselines hide the fact the tips are extra and are expected when you cruise. The only issue I have is that cheap people have the option of taking them off after making use of the service. I would like it to be call a NON REMOVEABLE SERVICE CHARGE and I say this because the crew deserve to be compensated.

[chrisdobb]

Compensated for what?

[chrisdobb]

If you would only read what I write: I am quite happy to pay any person who makes my cruising experience better and tip well, but I will not be told what I have to tip in order to lift an unreasonable wage to a reasonable one, as I have already said that is the job of the cruise company it is also their job to charge me a proper and full price, anything else is an extra rewarded for good service not a payment for doing what they are employed to do.

I am not their employer!

[cgrout78]

I feel this whole tipping thing is an outrage, why do I have to pay twice for the same thing? if the cruise companies paid reasonable wages and did not openly advertise the salary they pay as being dependent on the level of passengers tips the price of cruises would go up - fine, so now the cruise company would have to ensure the passengers got value for money from every member of the crew.

Also one reason most cruise ships are registered offshore is to avoid having to pay the minimum wage.

I am shortly to go on a cruise with Princess cruises (out of Los Angeles) and I fully intent to get all gratuities removed from my cabin account. The crew are paid by the company (poorly or otherwise is the companies business) to work in a profesional maner and to a high standard this is what I am paying for, should certain crew members give a higher standard of work or go out of their way to make my holiday more enjoyable I am very happy to tip them accordingly, but I will not be made to tip just to lift their wage to an acceptable level, that is the companies responsibility.

I have worked all my life and I have received tips on occasion, however every time this has happened I know I have gone the extra mile and therefore the tip was appreciated, not because I needed it to make a wage but because I was happy to know my client was suitably impressed with my service.

The tipping level on Princess cruise is $10.50 per person per night, on a 15 night cruise that equates to $157.50 per passenger - the ship holds 1970 passengers so the total tips collected is $310,275, as the total crew numbers are 900 this would equate to $344.75 per crew member, however not all crew members share in this money. The bar staff, cleaners and utility staff and casino staff and spa staff do not get a cut, so the actual payment level is much higher, this is used to bring the wage paid by the company to a reasonable level.

I am now retired and my wife and I live on not a lot of money, however my choice and I am not complaining, but should I be able to find a low paid job that offered that level of extra I would jump at it.

As I said at the beginning tipping, when it is expected, is an outrage.

 

 

So you would work 12-14 hours a day, 6 or 7 days a week for $100 a month? That's what the cruiselines base salary is. Feel free to hop on the cruiseline as an employee and see how it goes for you!!! The crew will flat out tell you that americans can't and won't work on the ships as crew because of the horrible pay. I know there are exceptions to this, but it is VERY rare to find an american steward or waiter.

[cgrout78]

If you would only read what I write: I am quite happy to pay any person who makes my cruising experience better and tip well, but I will not be told what I have to tip in order to lift an unreasonable wage to a reasonable one, as I have already said that is the job of the cruise company it is also their job to charge me a proper and full price, anything else is an extra rewarded for good service not a payment for doing what they are employed to do.

I am not their employer!

 

 

Then choose a different cruiseline please, or a different style of vacation. I'm sure staying in a hotel for a week, eating out 3 meals a day will cost you FAR less than $12 a day in gratuities :rolleyes:

[smeyer418]

Who is included in the pool? all the waiters, bus staff cleaning people line chefs laundry personnel head waiters supply room staff(these include people who were traditionally tipped out by the directly tipped crew).

 

so for a two week cruise that roughly works out to about 175 Euros per crew member per week.

 

Is this a living wage in Spain? does your pension pay your more?

 

 

You are completely missing my point: Let the cruise company be honest, pay a decent wage to all crew and charge me a proper amount for my fare,no problem, but don't sell me a fare at one price then impose upon me a levy to lift the crew's wage to a resonable level.

No 175euros is not a living wage but it is not my resposibility to pay them any wage, that comes out of the ticket price charged by their employer, and to get back to my original point why advertise jobs then quote a wage which is dependent upon passengers tip: sure prices will rise but now they are rising by a back door method which sells a product at a price which is incomplete, if it costs me more up front thats is OK but pleasea let these companies be honest with everyone.

 

until that is done who do you hurt by removing it? and yes its YOU who pay the employee whether its in the fare or in the required tip. The companies are honest with everyone on how its done. Its there. It not a secret. I don't miss your point. I understand it. Its you who fail to see that the cost of the employee has NOT been included in the fare and will NOT be paid by the cruise line until it is. You can be as self righteous as you want as its not YOUR responsibility but until its in the fare, the custom and practice has been to tip. Its YOU who because of your own prejudice as to how the system should work(but doesn't) who refuses to live up to your social responsibility.

 

I understand your point. You think its already included in the fare and you should not be required to pay it again. No matter how many people tell you that is not the way you will do it your way. I understand but clearly disagree with your attitude towards it.

[cgrout78]

Who is included in the pool? all the waiters, bus staff cleaning people line chefs laundry personnel head waiters supply room staff(these include people who were traditionally tipped out by the directly tipped crew).

 

so for a two week cruise that roughly works out to about 175 Euros per crew member per week.

 

Is this a living wage in Spain? does your pension pay your more?

 

 

You are completely missing my point: Let the cruise company be honest, pay a decent wage to all crew and charge me a proper amount for my fare,no problem, but don't sell me a fare at one price then impose upon me a levy to lift the crew's wage to a resonable level.

No 175euros is not a living wage but it is not my resposibility to pay them any wage, that comes out of the ticket price charged by their employer, and to get back to my original point why advertise jobs then quote a wage which is dependent upon passengers tip: sure prices will rise but now they are rising by a back door method which sells a product at a price which is incomplete, if it costs me more up front thats is OK but pleasea let these companies be honest with everyone.

 

 

What determines the "living wage"? Right now crew members make about...50 cents an hour. So for them to be brought up to minimum wage standars of the USA of 7.25 per hour (for an example) would mean paying each employee an additional 6.75 PER HOUR WORKED. So each employee would be making about $2100 a month rather than the $100 a month. So $2000 times 900 employees would be 1,8000,000 a MONTH more in wages that would be passed on to us...so about $150 per passenger (assuming for 12k pax per month).

 

Oh yes...this is also assuming that we don't pay them overtime wages...which is generally 1.5 times per hour worked over 40 a week. You can calculate from there if you'd like :D

[smeyer418]

If you would only read what I write: I am quite happy to pay any person who makes my cruising experience better and tip well, but I will not be told what I have to tip in order to lift an unreasonable wage to a reasonable one, as I have already said that is the job of the cruise company it is also their job to charge me a proper and full price, anything else is an extra rewarded for good service not a payment for doing what they are employed to do.

I am not their employer!

 

 

its always been that your server in the dinning rooms tip out the line chefs and the dishwashers even though you never see them. They make your food and clean your plates. Its clear that the server actually doesn't do that. The auto-tip takes all this tipping out of the hands of the server. It makes it so everyone who IS responsible for your service and experience gets a fair share. The same is true in your cabin. The steward doesn't do the laundry and doesn't provide the supplies. He gets them from other people. He traditionally tipped them out too. Now that too is all taken care of. So if you give him/her any extra he can keep ALL of it.....

Its unfortunately true that since the 1800's that cruise line employees relied mostly on tips. Its not an American invention although we do keep it up. There was a movement in the 1900's in the US to do away with it. It failed but my point is that your enjoyment on the cruise is not solely the responsibility of those you see and decide to give some money to. Its about 7 Euros per day....and that is not that much for the service IMO>>..