Reducing tip percentage.

[Texas Tillie]

If you would only read what I write: I am quite happy to pay any person who makes my cruising experience better and tip well, but I will not be told what I have to tip in order to lift an unreasonable wage to a reasonable one, as I have already said that is the job of the cruise company it is also their job to charge me a proper and full price, anything else is an extra rewarded for good service not a payment for doing what they are employed to do.

I am not their employer!

 

You don't like the business model that the "American" (that really aren't American) lines have chosen. That is perfectly fine. What is not perfectly fine is for you to book a cruise on one of those lines and then refuse to accept the model. There must be many wonderful European lines you could choose that pay their employees a "living wage" (whatever that means!) and would therefore not offend your delicate sensibilities.

[navybankerteacher]

If you would only read what I write: I am quite happy to pay any person who makes my cruising experience better and tip well, but I will not be told what I have to tip in order to lift an unreasonable wage to a reasonable one, as I have already said that is the job of the cruise company it is also their job to charge me a proper and full price, anything else is an extra rewarded for good service not a payment for doing what they are employed to do.

I am not their employer!

 

EXACTLY: YOU ARE NOT THEIR EMPLOYER -- so you are not competent to decide what a "...reasonable wage..." is. The reasonableness is something to be determined by employer and employee -- not a third party who wishes to impose his views upon others.

 

The fact that there are cruise lines which wish to pay low wages that can be supplemented by passengers who elect to leave auto-tips in place - (and perhaps to add extra), while there are employees who are willing to accept employment under those conditions is not your business.

 

If you sign on to cruise without understanding the terms, I can only sympatize for your ignorance --- if, on the other hand, you feel you are somehow competent to dictate the terms of the employment upon which line and staff agree, I can only dismiss you as arrogant.

[PS90]

I do not think that the cruiselines hide the fact the tips are extra and are expected when you cruise. The only issue I have is that cheap people have the option of taking them off after making use of the service. I would like it to be call a NON REMOVEABLE SERVICE CHARGE and I say this because the crew deserve to be compensated.

 

I have always paid the tips at the suggested amount, long before auto-tips and pre-paid tips came along.

 

But, no offense, but your opinion is the biggest reason I think that there is such a problem and misunderstanding with the current system. Tips are NOT a service charge! They are compensation for a job well done. That is the whole reason that they are optional. It doesn't matter if they help pay the crew's wages or not - they are (and should be) dependent on the level of service received. And that seems to be many people's issue with tips that are automatically added to their onboard accounts - this makes it seem like they are a required service charge, not what they really are.

[chrisdobb]

“If you sign on to cruise without understanding the terms, I can only sympatize for your ignorance --- if, on the other hand, you feel you are somehow competent to dictate the terms of the employment upon which line and staff agree, I can only dismiss you as arrogant.”

 

Again you are not taking on board my whole point: Tipping is NOT part of the terms I signed up to (it is out dated and incorrect) it is a means of subsidising low wages which the cruise companies are able to get away with and take an unfair advantage of the crew because of the American practice of tipping:

"EXACTLY: YOU ARE NOT THEIR EMPLOYER -- so you are not competent to decide what a "...reasonable wage..." is. The reasonableness is something to be determined by employer and employee -- not a third party who wishes to impose his views upon others."

From this it would appear you feel although I am not competent to make a decision regarding a reasonable wage, I am competent to make up the difference - how bizarre!

Your comments demonstrate very clearly you accept and support the crew are not paid a reasonable wage and are happy this can be increased by tipping – how can that be right.

The fact that there are cruise lines which wish to pay low wages that can be supplemented by passengers who elect to leave auto-tips in place - (and perhaps to add extra), while there are employees who are willing to accept employment under those conditions is not your business.

OK it is not my business, so why do the companies make it my business by expecting me to make up the short fall. If the companies are happy, the crew is happy, I am very happy with the fact I will not be tipping as a matter of course, I shall tip as and when I feel I want to: and that my friends is my business.

What determines the "living wage"? Right now crew members make about...50 cents an hour. So for them to be brought up to minimum wage standars of the USA of 7.25 per hour (for an example) would mean paying each employee an additional 6.75 PER HOUR WORKED. So each employee would be making about $2100 a month rather than the $100 a month. So $2000 times 900 employees would be 1,8000,000 a MONTH more in wages that would be passed on to us...so about $150 per passenger (assuming for 12k pax per month).

How you can know the crew who look after you are being paid 50cents an hour and then go on to defend the companies that are paying them that are in the right astounds me, what is the minimum wage for, as long as it’s on board ship it’s OK is that your attitude?

Once again I repeat make the companies pay a proper wage then increase the price guest pay: how can you disagree with that? Just beacuase it has always been that way does not make it right.

Then if I choose to because someone has enhanced my trip I can REWARD them and not subsidise their wage.

It is clear I am a voice in the wilderness, perhaps because I am from the other side of the Atlantic and maybe there is no common ground. We can see from these exchanges the age of exploitation is not dead!

My opinion has not altered. The cruise companies want their cake and eat it and you guys are backing them up all the way and keeping the practice of low wages going strong, well done.

[navybankerteacher]

Perhaps the real issue is that some folk simply cannot stand the concept of incentive pay. In an environment where SERVICE is essential to the product - as in the case of a cruise line, whose product is making customers feel well cared for - perhaps creating an environment where the customers are encouraged to reward good service (and, yes, penalize bad service) is a logical business model.

 

"Incentive" or "performance" is a dirty word when paired with "pay" in many environments. Public education, motor vehicle bureaus,etc. come to mind. At the very least, it serves as an interesting basis for comparison for there to be differentiation of compensation based upon customer satisfaction.

 

In any event -- as has been noted before, those who want to pay premium prices for tipless cruising have premium priced lines from which to choose; just as they who are unhappy with the policies of lines which do believe in a compensation structure which attempts to reward performance are free not to sail with them.

 

They should simply stop complaining, and vote with their wallets.

[njhorseman]

If I am not paying twice where does the 310000$ go, I feel sure the crew get it all!

Price the cruise honestly and accurately and we will all know where we are, yes tips are shown as an extra but if no one paid any tips, as they could, where would the crew's wage come from?

 

But the $310000 is all you're paying so you're paying only once. You're obviously dodging the question of identifying what is the second place you're paying. Of course you have to dodge it because it doesn't exist.

[ggrouter]

“If you sign on to cruise without understanding the terms, I can only sympatize for your ignorance --- if, on the other hand, you feel you are somehow competent to dictate the terms of the employment upon which line and staff agree, I can only dismiss you as arrogant.”

 

Again you are not taking on board my whole point: Tipping is NOT part of the terms I signed up to (it is out dated and incorrect) it is a means of subsidising low wages which the cruise companies are able to get away with and take an unfair advantage of the crew because of the American practice of tipping:

 

"EXACTLY: YOU ARE NOT THEIR EMPLOYER -- so you are not competent to decide what a "...reasonable wage..." is. The reasonableness is something to be determined by employer and employee -- not a third party who wishes to impose his views upon others."

From this it would appear you feel although I am not competent to make a decision regarding a reasonable wage, I am competent to make up the difference - how bizarre!

Your comments demonstrate very clearly you accept and support the crew are not paid a reasonable wage and are happy this can be increased by tipping – how can that be right.

 

The fact that there are cruise lines which wish to pay low wages that can be supplemented by passengers who elect to leave auto-tips in place - (and perhaps to add extra), while there are employees who are willing to accept employment under those conditions is not your business.

 

OK it is not my business, so why do the companies make it my business by expecting me to make up the short fall. If the companies are happy, the crew is happy, I am very happy with the fact I will not be tipping as a matter of course, I shall tip as and when I feel I want to: and that my friends is my business.

What determines the "living wage"? Right now crew members make about...50 cents an hour. So for them to be brought up to minimum wage standars of the USA of 7.25 per hour (for an example) would mean paying each employee an additional 6.75 PER HOUR WORKED. So each employee would be making about $2100 a month rather than the $100 a month. So $2000 times 900 employees would be 1,8000,000 a MONTH more in wages that would be passed on to us...so about $150 per passenger (assuming for 12k pax per month).

How you can know the crew who look after you are being paid 50cents an hour and then go on to defend the companies that are paying them that are in the right astounds me, what is the minimum wage for, as long as it’s on board ship it’s OK is that your attitude?

Once again I repeat make the companies pay a proper wage then increase the price guest pay: how can you disagree with that? Just beacuase it has always been that way does not make it right.

Then if I choose to because someone has enhanced my trip I can REWARD them and not subsidise their wage.

It is clear I am a voice in the wilderness, perhaps because I am from the other side of the Atlantic and maybe there is no common ground. We can see from these exchanges the age of exploitation is not dead!

My opinion has not altered. The cruise companies want their cake and eat it and you guys are backing them up all the way and keeping the practice of low wages going strong, well done.

 

So...you would rather pay $300 more for your fare...then pay the $100 in autotips

 

you criticize the way the ships operate and how they pay their employees, YET you continue to cruise. Therefore telling the cruiselines the way they operate is fine with you.

[smeyer418]

I have no problem with people removing the auto-tip when they have poor service but most of the time(not all) the reason for removing the tips has nothing to do with service(we missed a stop or the weather was bad).

 

I have had less then stellar service only once at a meal on NCL a really poor employee and when X started its anytime dining- we were on the first cruise of the Infinity when it started and it was not smooth. Otherwise the service has been acceptable to outstanding. When its acceptable I leave the base amount when its outstanding I leave more.

 

I have stayed in inside rooms to butlered suites. I have had as good service on an inside as a balcony(but the butler was better than all the others).

 

The issue is how the cruise lines pay their employees now. For the most part the service employees major compensation comes from tips/autotips. You can justify your non tipping anyway you want but the reality is you are just justifying stiffing the employees(niggardly) who for the most part, tip or no tip provide decent service and above.

 

and just like some people just don't believe that Obama was born in the US or that the Moon is not made of Swiss cheese, nothing I can say or do will convince you otherwise. Its you have to look yourself in the mirror....not me thank goodness...

[chrisdobb]

So...you would rather pay $300 more for your fare...then pay the $100 in autotips

Thank you ggrouter, at last someone is grasping the concept.

 

I did not buy my a cruise from the cruise company, I bought a holiday package from a travel egent, so I was presented with a total cost and then made my decision: so to follow your argument I now need to dsecide how much extra I pay the travel agent, a fixed sum or a percentage, and the airline company, and the taxi company, and the hotel company.

This is my argument they as commecrcial enterprises have all brought their product to the market place after calculating their overall cost, so the price they present is the bottom line. Now then should the taxi driver give me outstanding service I will tip, should he do his job efficiently and promptly I will not, and the same with Hotel staff, I cannot imagine Americans calculate extra payment for Airline companies or Hotel companies, but maybe I am wrong.

As has previously been stated the business models of all these companies is none of my business, they present a prooduct and I buy, or not, that is my business I do not then need to go on and investigate the way the different companies pay or treat their staff in order to clear my conscience .

When you go to the Supermarket do you pay extra on your bill, and if so is it a fixed amout or so much for every minute you are in the shop, when you pay your electricity bill how much there, why are cruise lines different.

Yes it's aleisure persuit but at the end of the day the companies are commercial activities and they are there to make a profit.

I shall continue to make my buying decisions based on the prices the cruise companies publish and I am very confortable with that, thank you to all the people who have suggested I pick higher price or European companies but I think if you look you will find most companies are American owned, perhars therin lies the problem.

[chrisdobb]

But the $310000 is all you're paying so you're paying only once. You're obviously dodging the question of identifying what is the second place you're paying. Of course you have to dodge it because it doesn't exist.

 

No I am not paying any of the 310000 because I have already paid everything I was asked to pay, therefore I have paid for my cruise in full which should include all staff wages etc. if it does not it is the companies business not mine. Should I then pay extras in the form of tips, surcharges or anything else, to the company, then I am paying twice, shold I tip any crew member who has given me something extra then I am tipping. As I have already stated if no one tipped where do the crews wages come from? this was my opening remark, the cruise companies are advertising jobs for crew and openly stating the wages are subject to the level of passengers tips, therefore tips are (in the cruise companies eyes) part of the crews wage, as some people have been very quick to tell me that is none of my business, so lets keep it that way. they want me to pay twice.

[Cruisin_on_th_net]

Generally speaking: Why do the people from certain countries (that interestingly enough) have access to massively discounted cruises, NOT seem to grasp that other people (from other countries who don't have that access) are already paying MORE for the same cruises, and are VERY HAPPY for the hard working staff to be compensated from that higher paid fee?

 

Some people are stating that if tipping wasn't an option, and it was "built into the fare" then the cost of a cruise would increase. OF CAUSE the cruises would be dearer! Some are already PAYING that dearer price, so why are those people expected to tip in the same way that the others (NOT paying the dearer price) are???? Is it their fault that the dearer price they've paid hasn't been dispensed out to the crew?

 

I don't get how people can bang on about business models, and people refusing to accept the way things are done, as if they are at fault, when they're happy to pay discounted cruise prices, feel no guilt about that BUT by doing so are encouraging near slave like conditions. It's as if to appease their guilt they throw a few extra dollars towards the "slaves." People that are paying a much larger amount to the cruise companies for the same "product", are then "berated" for not tipping, which then makes the others feel morally superior. It also enables them to minimise their endorsement of an unfair and inhumane business model by allowing them to pretend they aren't responsible for it's existence as “they compensate the slaves financially.”

 

As people can't seem to comment quick enough, it's "not their fault the cruise companies refuse to pay minimum wage, and if they did, the cruises would become much dearer." If so, pay up. Nothing makes it OK to endorse those kind of working conditions.

 

Perhaps if everyone (from everywhere) had access to the same costings - then the decisions to compensate / reward (call it what you will) the staff would actually be made in a manner that a consensus could be reached! Some people have already paid an increase in the fare, which (as others keep saying) would be the same result if tips weren't paid. If they want to tip for outstanding /above n beyond service then they can but why should they be belittled or "not given the time of day" when they have already paid (through a higher rate in their fare) for their linen to be washed, dishes to be cleaned, food to be served and beds to be made? (ie minimum service that doesn’t warrant tipping.)

 

Lastly: Why do people say “they’ll never get it.” When they so clearly don’t get it themselves.

[Texas Tillie]

Generally speaking: Why do the people from certain countries (that interestingly enough) have access to massively discounted cruises, NOT seem to grasp that other people (from other countries who don't have that access) are already paying MORE for the same cruises, and are VERY HAPPY for the hard working staff to be compensated from that higher paid fee?

 

Some people are stating that if tipping wasn't an option, and it was "built into the fare" then the cost of a cruise would increase. OF CAUSE the cruises would be dearer! Some are already PAYING that dearer price, so why are those people expected to tip in the same way that the others (NOT paying the dearer price) are???? Is it their fault that the dearer price they've paid hasn't been dispensed out to the crew?

 

I don't get how people can bang on about business models, and people refusing to accept the way things are done, as if they are at fault, when they're happy to pay discounted cruise prices, feel no guilt about that BUT by doing so are encouraging near slave like conditions. It's as if to appease their guilt they throw a few extra dollars towards the "slaves." People that are paying a much larger amount to the cruise companies for the same "product", are then "berated" for not tipping, which then makes the others feel morally superior. It also enables them to minimise their endorsement of an unfair and inhumane business model by allowing them to pretend they aren't responsible for it's existence as “they compensate the slaves financially.”

 

As people can't seem to comment quick enough, it's "not their fault the cruise companies refuse to pay minimum wage, and if they did, the cruises would become much dearer." If so, pay up. Nothing makes it OK to endorse those kind of working conditions.

 

Perhaps if everyone (from everywhere) had access to the same costings - then the decisions to compensate / reward (call it what you will) the staff would actually be made in a manner that a consensus could be reached! Some people have already paid an increase in the fare, which (as others keep saying) would be the same result if tips weren't paid. If they want to tip for outstanding /above n beyond service then they can but why should they be belittled or "not given the time of day" when they have already paid (through a higher rate in their fare) for their linen to be washed, dishes to be cleaned, food to be served and beds to be made? (ie minimum service that doesn’t warrant tipping.)

 

Lastly: Why do people say “they’ll never get it.” When they so clearly don’t get it themselves.

 

Playing devil's advocate here, perhaps if all those cruisers from those countries who are paying the higher cruise fares would pay the (auto-tip, service charge, whatever it's called), their fares would be reduced. :eek:

 

I've never had one minute of guilt about how the crew is compensated by the cruiselines. These jobs are highly sought in their native countries and offer them an opportunity to provide their families with a standard of living that would be impossible if they remained at home.

 

Let's face it - we are never going to agree on this issue. I just wish those who can't accept the business model for those cruiselines that follow a business model that includes (auto-tip, service charge, whatever it's called) would stick with the lines that operate to their liking. If their way is the "right" way, eventually the cruiselines will change if they are not attracting enough passengers. :D

[navybankerteacher]

Has it been clearly established that people in some countries are actually charged more than people in other countries for a given cruise?

 

If so, why do the countries so penalized not take action to protect their citizens? Or is it those countries' own regulations whikch create the unfair pricing? (Value added tax, or whatever?)

 

I think different pricing on the part of the cruise lines would be difficult to justify - and I would agree that it is not fair; but this question is not relevant to the discussion of tips, removable service charges, unremovable service charges, or lines' compensation policies generally -- and introducing it does not contribute anything tothe discussion at hand.

[Texas Tillie]

Has it been clearly established that people in some countries are actually charged more than people in other countries for a given cruise?

 

If so, why do the countries so penalized not take action to protect their citizens? Or is it those countries' own regulations whikch create the unfair pricing? (Value added tax, or whatever?)

 

I think different pricing on the part of the cruise lines would be difficult to justify - and I would agree that it is not fair; but this question is not relevant to the discussion of tips, removable service charges, unremovable service charges, or lines' compensation policies generally -- and introducing it does not contribute anything tothe discussion at hand.

 

Yes, it is true. I have friends in Australia and at this point only Carnival and NCL (of the mass market lines) will allow Australians to book through American travel agents and get the lower price. From what I understand there are several reasons the cruiselines do this - consumer protection laws (and possibly taxes) that make doing business in those countries more expensive, keeping the local travel agents happy and the "tipping" issue.

[smeyer418]

Yes, it is true. I have friends in Australia and at this point only Carnival and NCL (of the mass market lines) will allow Australians to book through American travel agents and get the lower price. From what I understand there are several reasons the cruiselines do this - consumer protection laws (and possibly taxes) that make doing business in those countries more expensive, keeping the local travel agents happy and the "tipping" issue.

Australian(in some of the states there) law prohibits a TA from selling to its citizens unless licensed in Australia.

 

Its my understanding that this is also true(higher charges) for Europe where the law provides much more protection for passenger than US law. Someone has to pay for these increase costs. An example is that in Europe for those passengers who purchased through a European TA or Europe based company were stuck there because of the Iceland volcano, European law required the tour company to pay all increased costs such as hotels and other costs while US law would not.

 

While the number of Australian's cruising has increased, its not a significant percentage overall. US cruisers world wide is about 60%, from the UK 20-30% and the balance comes from mostly European Countries-although Asia is beginning to get a higher perecentage. Australians(with a total population of about 20,000,000) make up a small percentage of the remainder.

[ggrouter]

If you don't like it, then don't go. Find a holiday with a "business model" more to your liking. More room for the rest of us!

[chrisdobb]

ggrouter it seems to me you are loosing the argument and you do not like it!!

Thought this may be of interest :-

gra·tu·i·ty

 

   /grəˈtuɪti, -ˈtyu-/ Show Spelled[gruh-too-i-tee, -tyoo-] Show IPA

–noun,plural-ties. 1.a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.

 

2.something given without claim or demand.

 

3.British. a.a bonus granted to war veterans by the government.

 

b.a bonus given military personnel on discharge or retirement.

[chrisdobb]

It is without doubt prices for cruises in America are much cheaper to the Americans, I can see plenty of cruises advertised (we are bombarded with adverts from American cruise companies all the time) on the web yet I cannot take advantage of your prices, the companies are not allowed to do business with me directly, I am therefore forced to use earopean Travel Agent and have to pay their prices, I have no complaint about this but as has been said it is a very relevant fact.

[ggrouter]

ggrouter it seems to me you are loosing the argument and you do not like it!!

Thought this may be of interest :-

gra·tu·i·ty

 

   /grəˈtuɪti, -ˈtyu-/ Show Spelled[gruh-too-i-tee, -tyoo-] Show IPA

–noun,plural-ties. 1.a gift of money, over and above payment due for service, as to a waiter or bellhop; tip.

 

2.something given without claim or demand.

 

3.British. a.a bonus granted to war veterans by the government.

 

b.a bonus given military personnel on discharge or retirement.

 

There isn't an argument to be won or lost here. I choose to cruise, when I read through the information it tells me there is a suggested amount of "x" per day as gratuities for the crew that receives horrid pay. Therefore I do it, and am happy to do so.

 

You apparently aren't happy with this system and the business model it comes from. I'm just saying if you don't like the system then don't use it, no one is forcing you to take a cruise vacation.

[navybankerteacher]

Australian(in some of the states there) law prohibits a TA from selling to its citizens unless licensed in Australia.

 

Its my understanding that this is also true(higher charges) for Europe where the law provides much more protection for passenger than US law. Someone has to pay for these increase costs. An example is that in Europe for those passengers who purchased through a European TA or Europe based company were stuck there because of the Iceland volcano, European law required the tour company to pay all increased costs such as hotels and other costs while US law would not.

 

While the number of Australian's cruising has increased, its not a significant percentage overall. US cruisers world wide is about 60%, from the UK 20-30% and the balance comes from mostly European Countries-although Asia is beginning to get a higher perecentage. Australians(with a total population of about 20,000,000) make up a small percentage of the remainder.

 

So those people who complain that they have to pay more for their cruises have only their own societies to blame. Why do they piggy-back those complaints on their gripes about how cruise lines do business? It would make more sense for them to lobby to change their own "protective" laws than to criticize the way cruise lines (which they voluntarily choose to sail) incentivize employees to provide the level of service all customers want.

[PS90]

There isn't an argument to be won or lost here. I choose to cruise, when I read through the information it tells me there is a suggested amount of "x" per day as gratuities for the crew that receives horrid pay. Therefore I do it, and am happy to do so.

 

You apparently aren't happy with this system and the business model it comes from. I'm just saying if you don't like the system then don't use it, no one is forcing you to take a cruise vacation.

 

Does anyone have actual EVIDENCE that the crew receives "horrid pay"?

 

Many of the posters here are trying to make it sound like the crew is akin to slaves who are completely taken advantage of, yet there are other posters who have commented that jobs on cruise ships are very coveted by the Eastern Europeans that usually utilize them. So which is it? Does anyone really know?

 

Just because someone states that a crewmember makes $100 a month (for example), doesn't mean that is a poverty-level wage. It may be a king's ransom - when compared to the cost of living in the country that crew member is from.

 

In other words, you can't compare dollar for dollar, or pound for pound, the living wage of an American or a Brit to someone of another country. You can't even really compare dollar for dollar between Manhattan and, say, Jackson, Mississippi, when it comes to costs of living, so how can anyone expect to understand what a person in another country, with a completely different cost of living and culture, deserves for an income?

 

So, to me, "horrid pay" would have NOTHING to do with the number of dollars that crew member actually makes, but would have to be evidenced by that crew member's family having to live without adequate shelter, or not enough food, or without some other basic necessity.

[smeyer418]

So those people who complain that they have to pay more for their cruises have only their own societies to blame. Why do they piggy-back those complaints on their gripes about how cruise lines do business? It would make more sense for them to lobby to change their own "protective" laws than to criticize the way cruise lines (which they voluntarily choose to sail) incentivize employees to provide the level of service all customers want.

actually they have made a societal decision that they would rather pay more and get the protection then pay less and not be protected-but then they complain when they have to do. Reminds me of those people who have Medicare in this country who don't want others to have health care coverage.

 

You realize of course that no matter what you say you won't convince the OP that he is wrong......

[smeyer418]

Does anyone have actual EVIDENCE that the crew receives "horrid pay"?

 

...

 

The base pay for the "tipped" service crew is $50-100 per month plus room and board. Including the tips they make a minimum of about $1500 per month. Most cruise lines pay a minimum draw against the tips so if the person doesn't reach that they get it anyway but are likely to get fired if they consistently "make" less in tips.

 

You can read from an employee who works in the dinning rooms of one of the ships here.

 

 

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1107696

 

I also have confirmed this elsewhere(its a long story) but suffice it to say no one has ever contradicted it....

 

The one person who said otherwise got it from a internet search and on a job recruitment site that includes the tips in the monthly earnings amounts.

[staygulf]

“If you sign on to cruise without understanding the terms, I can only sympatize for your ignorance --- if, on the other hand, you feel you are somehow competent to dictate the terms of the employment upon which line and staff agree, I can only dismiss you as arrogant.”

 

 

 

Again you are not taking on board my whole point: Tipping is NOT part of the terms I signed up to (it is out dated and incorrect) it is a means of subsidising low wages which the cruise companies are able to get away with and take an unfair advantage of the crew because of the American practice of tipping:

 

"EXACTLY: YOU ARE NOT THEIR EMPLOYER -- so you are not competent to decide what a "...reasonable wage..." is. The reasonableness is something to be determined by employer and employee -- not a third party who wishes to impose his views upon others."

 

From this it would appear you feel although I am not competent to make a decision regarding a reasonable wage, I am competent to make up the difference - how bizarre!

Your comments demonstrate very clearly you accept and support the crew are not paid a reasonable wage and are happy this can be increased by tipping – how can that be right.

 

The fact that there are cruise lines which wish to pay low wages that can be supplemented by passengers who elect to leave auto-tips in place - (and perhaps to add extra), while there are employees who are willing to accept employment under those conditions is not your business.

 

OK it is not my business, so why do the companies make it my business by expecting me to make up the short fall. If the companies are happy, the crew is happy, I am very happy with the fact I will not be tipping as a matter of course, I shall tip as and when I feel I want to: and that my friends is my business.

What determines the "living wage"? Right now crew members make about...50 cents an hour. So for them to be brought up to minimum wage standars of the USA of 7.25 per hour (for an example) would mean paying each employee an additional 6.75 PER HOUR WORKED. So each employee would be making about $2100 a month rather than the $100 a month. So $2000 times 900 employees would be 1,8000,000 a MONTH more in wages that would be passed on to us...so about $150 per passenger (assuming for 12k pax per month).

How you can know the crew who look after you are being paid 50cents an hour and then go on to defend the companies that are paying them that are in the right astounds me, what is the minimum wage for, as long as it’s on board ship it’s OK is that your attitude?

Once again I repeat make the companies pay a proper wage then increase the price guest pay: how can you disagree with that? Just beacuase it has always been that way does not make it right.

Then if I choose to because someone has enhanced my trip I can REWARD them and not subsidise their wage.

It is clear I am a voice in the wilderness, perhaps because I am from the other side of the Atlantic and maybe there is no common ground. We can see from these exchanges the age of exploitation is not dead!

My opinion has not altered. The cruise companies want their cake and eat it and you guys are backing them up all the way and keeping the practice of low wages going strong, well done.

 

you are certainly not a lone voice in the wilderness. If you look at my posts you will see I am saying the same thing as you. What the Americans tend to ignore is that if they pay $899 for a cruise (say), we will be probably be paying £899, a 50% increase at today's exchange rates. So we are already paying more than them. Maybe we pay more because the cruise companies recognise our non-tipping culture. So why on earth should we be expected to pay again ?

[ggrouter]

you are certainly not a lone voice in the wilderness. If you look at my posts you will see I am saying the same thing as you. What the Americans tend to ignore is that if they pay $899 for a cruise (say), we will be probably be paying £899, a 50% increase at today's exchange rates. So we are already paying more than them. Maybe we pay more because the cruise companies recognise our non-tipping culture. So why on earth should we be expected to pay again ?

 

 

Your taxes and extra insurances don't pay the tips. So you're NOT paying again. You're paying for entirely different things. Blame your government...don't blame the crew.