Body scanners, More likely not to fly to cruise?

[Retty2Go]

Well said! Religious zealots have no further to look than their own holy books for examples and inspiration on sacrificing their children. Some seem to think that your job is as simple as looking for brown people wearing keffiyeh and burqas.

 

First of all, I have had to pat down infants before. Before you go off on me, even in my little home town, drug runners have loaded their babies diapers with drugs to escape detection. If they will do that with drugs, what's to stop a terrorist from doing the same with some c-4? Remember those liquid explosive terrorists? Some of them had their wives and children with them. They were perfectly willing to sacrafice their families for their goal! As for patting down old people, you don't get the briefings I do. You don't know what you are talking about or you would never leave your house! There have been several instances of elderly people being taken advantage of by their travel companions and being caught trying to bring MAJOR dangerous things through checkpoints! I cannot and will not go into detail but, you have a computer. Use it. Look up the Russian widows, middle age and graying who blew up 2 Russian airliners a few years back. They hardly look like middle eastern young men but look how many people they killed!!! You armchair generals sit back and complain about what we do and don't give any concrete realistic solutions. You would be the first to point a finger if a plane fell out of the sky! BTW, I hold you in as much contempt as you seem to hold me. You only know what you see and make snap judgements on something you really know very little of. Thanks for your support!

[Despegue]

And there you are wrong, as my collegues and me are responsible for the safety of all onboard our aircraft, passengers and crewmembers . Let me assure you that we have a lot better knowledge of safety, security and its mechanisms than the security screeners in general. Do not forget that it is us who are in the first line of fire in case of a terrorist situation, be it an illegal interference ( hyjack) or an explosive device...

 

Last week I was not allowed to take my hand-lotion with me:eek: as "it could be used as an explosive device". This was at the crew centre of a major East Coast airport in the USA...and that is by far not the worst I've seen.

 

However, momoftwinteens, The TSA in the US is one of the better trained agencies and for the most part do try to act professionally within their capabilities.

[Retty2Go]

And your point is...? Given your unnecessary arrogance, why do I get the impression that you are a relatively new pilot? Let's see you and your colleagues' responsibility in action after the plane disappears from the radar because a liquid bomb got past a screener. Bombs are indiscriminate: I don't think they've invented a pilot-seeking bomb yet. You are right the TSA is the better of the agencies. Every recent threat departed from a European airport.

 

And there you are wrong, as my collegues and me are responsible for the safety of all onboard our aircraft, passengers and crewmembers . Let me assure you that we have a lot better knowledge of safety, security and its mechanisms than the security screeners in general. Do not forget that it is us who are in the first line of fire in case of a terrorist situation, be it an illegal interference ( hyjack) or an explosive device...

 

Last week I was not allowed to take my hand-lotion with me:eek: as "it could be used as an explosive device". This was at the crew centre of a major East Coast airport in the USA...and that is by far not the worst I've seen.

 

However, momoftwinteens, The TSA in the US is one of the better trained agencies and for the most part do try to act professionally within their capabilities.

[Despegue]

Retty2Go,

6550 hours on Jet-Turbine aircraft, and recently promoted Captain on Boeing's largest commercial aircraft.

I am also safety officer and involved in security. So I am not unnecessary arrogant, but I do have some authority on the matter. My remarks come from years of daily observations of the workings of the security screening. As I said before, we are fully aware of the consequences of a terrorist attack, we're the first ones affected. It has been proven that the liquid ban is totally useless, hence the decision the abandon the rule in 2012. You can do FAR MORE damage with all the alcohol onboard by the way. :rolleyes:

 

Security begins with common sense. that is Lesson one in any serious security course. A shame that it is not always practiced in reality.

[momoftwinteens]

Retty2Go,

6550 hours on Jet-Turbine aircraft, and recently promoted Captain on Boeing's largest commercial aircraft.

I am also safety officer and involved in security. So I am not unnecessary arrogant, but I do have some authority on the matter. My remarks come from years of daily observations of the workings of the security screening. As I said before, we are fully aware of the consequences of a terrorist attack, we're the first ones affected. It has been proven that the liquid ban is totally useless, hence the decision the abandon the rule in 2012. You can do FAR MORE damage with all the alcohol onboard by the way. :rolleyes:

 

Security begins with common sense. that is Lesson one in any serious security course. A shame that it is not always practiced in reality.

Where exactly did you get your information? From Washington? Word of mouth? Rumors? Or someone told you that someone told them...ad nuaseum. I find it interesting that a pilot from a foreign country suddenly knows more than someone who actually works for the agency in question. Abandon the liquid ban? Not that I've heard and btw, I have a need to know. You don't. I also don't support pilots being exempt from the scanners. Ever heard of ID's and/or uniforms being stolen? I have.

[Despegue]

Decision by the EU member states after consultation with EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency). The US will more than probably follow as there is a common policy agreement between the EU and US as you no doubt know.

 

Momoftwinteens,

no need to become defensive. I do respect you job and am very well aware that it is very often a difficult one, being always the ones to be angry at. I do know you have to follow the rules, I do appreciate the care you take in assuring safety and a secure airport environment. We are all in the same boat, but that does not mean that we have to agree on everything do we? Points of view can change dramatically depending on from where you look...

We happily go through the full body scanners, why not, I don't need to put off my shoes and belt anymore in a lot of airports thanks to them.

You are right that uniforms and badges can be easily faked.

(Just as a TSA badge and uniform by the way).

[Giorgi-one]

I could not agree more! I think someone should start a movement to THANK TSA agents at the airports during the holiday season....not treat them like perverts! They are doing a pretty unpleasant job that they have been given, for whatever reason....we don't know the reason for the heightened security measures, but I feel certain that it was not initiated by TSA agents who wanted to grope a bunch of strangers. If it makes me safer then I want them to keep up the good work!

 

I thank them all the time.

[Despegue]

 

Pilots get OK to skip stepped-up airport screening

 

Pilots are getting a break from enduring the stepped-up and intrusive screening of airline passengers that's causing a public outcry.

By DAVID KOENIG and JOAN LOWY

Associated Press

 

 

 

 

WASHINGTON — Pilots are getting a break from enduring the stepped-up and intrusive screening of airline passengers that's causing a public outcry.

Days before the Thanksgiving holiday travel period, Transportation Security Administration chief John Pistole offered little hope of a similar reprieve for regular passengers.

The agency agreed on Friday to let uniformed airline pilots skip the body scans and aggressive pat-downs. Pilots must pass through a metal detector at airport checkpoints and present photo IDs that prove their identity.

The change followed a 2-year lobbying campaign by union leaders, their efforts boosted by hero pilot Chesley Sullenberger, who said pilots should be treated as "trusted partners" in the fight against terrorism.

Complaints from Sullenberger, who landed a passenger jet in the Hudson River in January 2009, and others gave weight to the movement to roll back the new measures.

Some activists are urging travelers to refuse to go through full-body scanners, which produce a virtually naked image.

If a loosely organized Internet campaign succeeds, security lines at airports could be snarled. Those who refuse a body scan can be forced to undergo time-consuming fingertip examinations, which include clothed genital areas and breasts, by inspectors of the same sex as the traveler.

American Airlines pilot Sam Mayer said such screening for pilots makes little sense.

A pilot intent on terrorism could simply crash the plane. No amount of imaging at the security checkpoint could stop that. Besides, under another government program to make them the last line of defense against terrorists, pilots are allowed to have guns in the cockpit.

The changes promised by TSA are "basically what we've been after," Mayer said. "Pilots are not the threat here; we're the target."

Mayer's union, the Allied Pilots Association, helped foment the backlash against the security measures two weeks ago. Its president, Dave Bates, urged pilots to skip the imaging machines because of concern about frequent radiation exposure. The government and an independent group of experts say radiation is safe, as long as radiation doses are kept within the low limits set for the scanners.

Bates recommended that pilots instead accept a pat-down - preferably where passengers couldn't see them.

 

 

 

John Prater, president of the Air Line Pilots Association, which represents pilots at several major airlines, said the unions have been negotiating the changes with TSA for two years. He said changes were in the works, but were speeded up by the backlash against the new imaging machines and searching techniques.

The TSA offered few details - and no specific timeline - for changes in screening of pilots, which expand a program tested at airports in Baltimore, Pittsburgh and Charlotte, N.C.

The TSA said that beginning Friday, pilots traveling in uniform or on airline business could pass security by presenting two photo IDs, one from their company and one from the government, to be checked against a secure flight crew database. Their unions said pilots could skip the pat-downs immediately.

Pistole said pilots ensure the safety of millions of passengers every day, and that putting them through a faster screening process would be a more efficient use of the agency's resources. But he has defended the more invasive inspections of passengers, saying they were a response to intelligence about potential terrorist attacks and plots to evade airport security.

Homeland security officials were alarmed last Christmas when a terrorist with a bomb in his underwear got on a flight to Detroit. He failed to detonate the explosives. Last month, terrorists tried mailing bombs hidden in ink cartridges and shipping them on planes as cargo.

Some lawmakers who are feeling heat from voters have called for a review of the TSA procedures.

The government could ease concerns through different technology. The TSA is testing a new body scanner that produces stick-figure images instead of pictures of the traveler's naked body.

While pilots celebrated Friday, other airline employees feel left out.

The president of the flight attendants' union at Southwest Airlines said if pilots can bypass the screening process, so should his members.

Thom McDaniel said attendants go through FBI checks just like pilots do, and making them go through the regular screening is "a double standard."

Prater, the pilots' union president, said he believes the government will eventually approve a system of allowing regular passengers to pass background checks and qualify as "trusted travelers" who can skip through security just by showing identification that can be verified in a computer database.

 

the above comes from the Associated Press.

 

On another note, the TSA was supposed to drop the liquid-ban this year, but due to delays in new scanner equipment, with enhanced logaritmic logic, this change is now delayed. This comes from the TSA itself by the way.

[Giorgi-one]

We were not prepared for 9/11 although we should have been since several intelligence agencies had warnings that terrorists would try to use planes as weapons. I understand that some people even warned President Bush. I also read that there were several flight schools where groups of Arab men trained to fly commercial aircraft and even told the instructors they were not interested in learning how to land the planes. DUH! Anyone who taught these people should have gone to jail for at least 500 years in solitary confinement.

 

That said, we should be prepared now since we know what they are trying to do. The next time a bomb blows an airplane out of the sky, the aviation industry is dead. I really do not think the airlines understand this. Sure some people will still fly but many will not. Can most airlines really exist with 50% of their current passengers? So, if you work in the aviation industry and really want to keep your job, you should support maximum security even if it means strip searching. Actually, you should be supporting security for more obvious reasons, but if selfish is the only thing that works, so be it!

[momoftwinteens]

Decision by the EU member states after consultation with EASA (European Aviation Safety Agency). The US will more than probably follow as there is a common policy agreement between the EU and US as you no doubt know.

 

Momoftwinteens,

no need to become defensive. I do respect you job and am very well aware that it is very often a difficult one, being always the ones to be angry at. I do know you have to follow the rules, I do appreciate the care you take in assuring safety and a secure airport environment. We are all in the same boat, but that does not mean that we have to agree on everything do we? Points of view can change dramatically depending on from where you look...

 

We happily go through the full body scanners, why not, I don't need to put off my shoes and belt anymore in a lot of airports thanks to them.

You are right that uniforms and badges can be easily faked.

(Just as a TSA badge and uniform by the way).

I apologize, sir. As I said in my very first post here, I have become very discouraged as of late because of all the negative coverage. I have become very defensive as a result. I am very proud of my job and do it to the best of my ability. I try very hard to treat all passengers with respect and decency and ask for nothing more than the same from the traveling public. I know that there are many TSO's who do not follow my lead and thus, give the TSA a bad name. That could be said of all orginizations, including yours, could it not? I cannot speak for my fellow screeners, only me. This I promise; I will greet you with a smile and a "good morning" when I see you. If you choose to not respond, that is ok. Please remember that I did not make the rules but, my job depends on me keeping and enforcing them. Those who would suggest I do otherwise simply do not understand the consequences. Although I doubt we will ever meet, I would plead with you to remember that it is unfair to lump us all together. More often than not, for the most of us, our jobs mean more to us than you will ever know or understand.

[riredsox]

This is where you and so many others are wrong.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00040103----000-.html

 

If we put as much money into profiling and doing security as the Israelis do, it certainly would scale. Anything else is security theatre. Think about it, there has not been an attack since 9/11. What was working before November 1st was working, now why the change. The Theatre Security Agency inconsistently applies the rules in every airport in America. It is not the same. I am so glad that there are airports that have given notice that they are going to OPT OUT of security screening by the TSA as the law allows. I hope more airports will follow. When will you people scream ENOUGH?

 

Let us see how you feel when you have to be groped and exposed to unnecessary radiation when going into Wal-mart. How about into the library or the shopping mall? Will you be ok with it then?

 

If there were 2 planes on the runway and one was full of unscanned and ungrouped people and the other plane full of scanned people which would you feel more safe on? You fly one I'll fly the scanned one. People will have to find another way to travel if they don't like it. Maybe they can walk to their destination and then no one will violate their rights. By the way I have the right to fly in the safest plane possible...

[riredsox]

I hope that some of you folks viewed Dr. Krauthammer's comments on Fox News this evening.

 

LOL Fox news! Fox station maybe but that is not really news it's a political tv station......

[Giorgi-one]

This is where you and so many others are wrong.

 

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode49/usc_sec_49_00040103----000-.html

 

If we put as much money into profiling and doing security as the Israelis do, it certainly would scale. Anything else is security theatre. Think about it, there has not been an attack since 9/11. What was working before November 1st was working, now why the change. The Theatre Security Agency inconsistently applies the rules in every airport in America. It is not the same. I am so glad that there are airports that have given notice that they are going to OPT OUT of security screening by the TSA as the law allows. I hope more airports will follow. When will you people scream ENOUGH?

 

Let us see how you feel when you have to be groped and exposed to unnecessary radiation when going into Wal-mart. How about into the library or the shopping mall? Will you be ok with it then?

 

Absolutely not true that what we were doing before Nov 1st was working. TSA has been saying for years that the scanners we were using were outdated and would not detect all explosives. Also, there have been several attacks since 9/11. Basically, we have been lucky in at least two instances that we know of where explosives failed to detonate. I would never fly thru an airport without the strictest screening. I am confident that most Americans support the strictest security screening possible and there are just a few like you. As I said in my previous post, if terrorists destroy one plane, the airline industry will be destroyed as we know it. This will also affect the entire tourist industry big time. This is exactly what terrorists are trying to do. They could care less if they kill a few hundred people. Hell, we kill 50,000 every year on the roads and probably that many more with guns. Nobody kills better than we do here in America.

[hcat]

Follow the money! Someone must be making a bundle on scanners (or did they sell their stock before it all hit the fan?..

 

I know there is is a better way to do this...How about a nice question & answer profile to sort our who might be suspect....

 

even before this escalation of idiocy..we watched them take our friend's teen dtr's wheelchair apart....while she sat there totally embarassed.. the breast cancer survivor's story a few posts back--also terrible! why aren't the scanners in privacy til this is sorted out.....??

 

anyhow two or three more flights for us & we are done for awhile!! we have had heart cat scans & chest X-rays this yr & I had a mammo so that's quite enough rays!

[derf5585]

If there were 2 planes on the runway and one was full of unscanned and ungrouped people and the other plane full of scanned people which would you feel more safe on? You fly one I'll fly the scanned one. People will have to find another way to travel if they don't like it. Maybe they can walk to their destination and then no one will violate their rights. By the way I have the right to fly in the safest plane possible...

 

Almost like

If I carry a **** aboard an airplane what are the chances that another passenger would be carrying a **** also.

[Giorgi-one]

Follow the money! Someone must be making a bundle on scanners (or did they sell their stock before it all hit the fan?..

 

I know there is is a better way to do this...How about a nice question & answer profile to sort our who might be suspect....

 

even before this escalation of idiocy..we watched them take our friend's teen dtr's wheelchair apart....while she sat there totally embarassed.. the breast cancer survivor's story a few posts back--also terrible! why aren't the scanners in privacy til this is sorted out.....??

 

anyhow two or three more flights for us & we are done for awhile!! we have had heart cat scans & chest X-rays this yr & I had a mammo so that's quite enough rays!

 

You actually get more radiation on the flight than you do with the scanners. When you come up with a better way, be sure to let us all know.

[Giorgi-one]

All you brave people who want to do away with security. Can you imagine a worst way to die? Falling thru the air in a plane when you know in about one minute your body will look like jello.

[Retty2Go]

Well, I certainly hope that your scans revealed nothing out of the ordinary, and encourage you to see that you are running off into the airplane sunset much too soon! :)

 

anyhow two or three more flights for us & we are done for awhile!! we have had heart cat scans & chest X-rays this yr & I had a mammo so that's quite enough rays!

[derf5585]

Until you and your collegues have walked in my shoes, you have no right to judge me.

 

Yes but we had to take our shoes off

 

Do TSAers who fly have to go thru the same stuff as we do?

[derf5585]

It has been proven that the liquid ban is totally useless, hence the decision the abandon the rule in 2012..

 

Why not today?

[Giorgi-one]

They don't bother me at all, but I'm thinking about refusing it next time so I can get the extra special pat down.

 

Depends who's patting!

[Retty2Go]

It depends on who the Supreme Leader "spoke" to that morning.

 

Derf, you are such a provocateur! You have the best sense of humor in the entirety of these boards.

 

Almost like

If I carry a **** aboard an airplane what are the chances that another passenger would be carrying a **** also.

[Despegue]

I must add some thing: Mutual Respect is the foundation on which civilised countries are built on. Lose that and one could as well live in the countries where we send our troops to.

 

I ALWAYS treat security staff with a friendly smile as I do need to set an example to my crew AND passengers alike. If I run into a disagreement, I politely suggest to discuss the issue out of the public's view.

 

Momoftwinteens, it is me who should apologize for sounding too harsh in earlier posts. English is not my native language (my mother tongue is Dutch) and some of my wordings might have been chosen more carefully.

ps. I'm not a "sir" on this forum;), it makes me feel old :eek:.

[momoftwinteens]

Yes but we had to take our shoes off

 

Do TSAers who fly have to go thru the same stuff as we do?

Yes, we do. In fact, when my DH and I flew to Miami for our cruise last August, we were both pulled for additional acreening and our carry-on was searched, at my home airport, no less.

[momoftwinteens]

I must add some thing: Mutual Respect is the foundation on which civilised countries are built on. Lose that and one could as well live in the countries where we send our troops to.

 

I ALWAYS treat security staff with a friendly smile as I do need to set an example to my crew AND passengers alike. If I run into a disagreement, I politely suggest to discuss the issue out of the public's view.

 

Momoftwinteens, it is me who should apologize for sounding too harsh in earlier posts. English is not my native language (my mother tongue is Dutch) and some of my wordings might have been chosen more carefully.

ps. I'm not a "sir" on this forum;), it makes me feel old :eek:.

Apology is acknowledged and gratefully received. I must tell you, though, I will ALWAYS refer to people as Ma'am or Sir. I have dealt with the public in different ways far too long. My daughter calls me the most polite person she knows because I will call people Ma'am or Sir in the grocery store!;) I just don't have it in me to be rude to anyone. It can result in a rather comical exchange when I am addressing someone from the military:D.