Celebrity dumps disabled man on island.

[detroitcruiser]

I don't think "kicked off the ship" is the proper terminology. He breached his contract with Celebrity by not adhering to the terms that required him to be self-sufficient or have a care-giver if he was not.

 

The contract permits the company to put off any passenger who breaches the contract.

 

You're the law student. Read it the contract.

 

There are absolutely no facts to indicate that he was not self-sufficient. I agree that a butler is not an aide for helping with activities of daily living; however, the only ADL he requested help with is getting in and out of the bathroom which apparently was not accessible (there was a lip on the floor despite it being designated a handicapped room). Just because someone is in a wheelchair it does not mean they are not self-sufficient.

 

Several other people have written in to express their own frustrations with these so called "accessible rooms." It seems that the cruise line misrepresented the room requiring him to need more assistance than normal and then the cruise line kicked him off as a result of their failure to provide a truly accessible room.

[kc7wxy]

To comply with all ADA requirements Celebrity will be installing seat belts on all toilets :D. My wife and I discussed this story bear in mind she is a Polio victim . The bottom line is 99% of the disabled people are just fine with there limitations but there are the 1% that are just looking for any issue to scream and are mad/blame at the whole world. When the facts are known this guy was on a mission looking for trouble or why would he even post on CC.

[Jobeth66]

There are absolutely no facts to indicate that he was not self-sufficient. I agree that a butler is not an aide for helping with activities of daily living; however, the only ADL he requested help with is getting in and out of the bathroom which apparently was not accessible (there was a lip on the floor despite it being designated a handicapped room). Just because someone is in a wheelchair it does not mean they are not self-sufficient.

 

Several other people have written in to express their own frustrations with these so called "accessible rooms." It seems that the cruise line misrepresented the room requiring him to need more assistance than normal and then the cruise line kicked him off as a result of their failure to provide a truly accessible room.

 

ONE person wrote about their experiences in a handicapped accessible room on the Century, and we don't even know if it was the same room, or the same issue. In fact, that person even said the lip getting into the bathroom as only an issue if the wheelchair was oriented in a particular way, otherwise there wasn't a problem.

 

There are a few issues here:

 

1 - The passenger apparently did not let the tour operator know of his issues, and missed several requirements in the cruise contract WRT expectations of/for passengers with disabilities.

2 - He clearly expected the butler was going to be providing services not contained within the butler's contracted duties with the line and the tour operator

3 - The passenger alleges that he 'paid extra' (according to the original article) to have a butler 'assigned' to assist him - clearly not the case, as we all know, but more hyperbole designed to do nothing but put the cruise line on the defensive. (That statement, BTW, clearly shows that he knew he was going to need assistance above & beyond what a passenger would normally expect, calling into question your suggestion that he may have been 100% self-sufficient.)

4 - Celebrity/RCL is really not the putative tortfeasor here, the ship was chartered by the tour group, his contract was with them first, and only with Celebrity by virtue of any assignment or pass-through from the tour group. My guess is that suing a nude cruise tour operator would not be as sensational or make him as sympathetic as suing Celebrity/RCL

5 - The tour operator went WAY above & beyond and arranged for an aide for him when they were made aware that he was NOT self-sufficient as required by the contract he signed, and even moved people around so that the aide could be housed close to his accommodation - he refused to retain the services of the aide. They were under NO obligation to attempt to make things work out for him so that he could continue on the cruise.

6 - He had the opportunity to bring someone other than his wife when she canceled, he chose not to. He should have considered a caregiver.

7 - He CHOSE to debark. He was not 'kicked off' the ship, he had an option to hire an aide that was found for him or to obtain his own aide, in order to continue on the ship for the remainder of his vacation, when it was found he violated the terms of his contract. He /chose/ not to do so.

8 - He CHOSE a flight that had a layover in Haiti. Neither Celebrity/RCL nor the tour operator forced him onto that flight. That whole part of his story is hyperbole designed to make the reader feel more sorry for him.

 

Neither the tour operator nor Celebrity owes him anything, least of all a refund of his cruise ticket/plane ticket home. He is an adult of sound mind who entered into a contract, the terms of which were freely available, and which he chose to breach. There is no remedy under the law for him, and I hope that Celebrity tells him to pound sand.

 

(BTW - I'm the parent of a handicapped adult. I'm not unsympathetic to his situation, but he was in full control of the outcome of his vacation. He has no one to blame but himself.)

[rebeccalouiseagain]

this passenger is disgruntled. I get it.

 

sometimes people don't except that life deals you lemons and you have to make lemonade.

 

I was also disembarked from a cruise two years ago because my son was ill. It was on the first day before disembarkation. I realized that it was best to go to the ships doctor immediately before setting sail. We were disembarked and I spent $ 2600 on a hotel, $600 on medical bills and decided to fly home earlier than my scheduled flight at a cost of $ 2400.00. There was no fault on the part of the cruise line. It was what it was. The cost of the cruise was an additional $2000 and our flights to Copenhagen cost $2200 total.

 

One he boarded he was aware that there was a problem with the threshold. At this point he made the decision to stay onboard. He did not use sound judgement. The average person has to use the bathroom 4 times a day. What was he thinking?

[98Charlie]

One problem with online blogs and "news" websites is that it attracts frustrated would be writers that don't have the qualifications to be professional journalists.

Just FYI

 

Jerry Wolffe was a staff writer and editor for United Press International for nearly 23 years. source He currently works as a reporter for the Oakland Press covering Western Oakland, Disabilities and General Assignments. source He writes the weekly column "Voices of Disability".

 

Charlie

[discjoker]

Just FYI

 

Jerry Wolffe was a staff writer and editor for United Press International for nearly 23 years. source He currently works as a reporter for the Oakland Press covering Western Oakland, Disabilities and General Assignments. source He writes the weekly column "Voices of Disability".

 

Charlie

 

Which explains the tone, opinion, and bias in the article. The author was writing as a columnist which is different than a reporter. Just mentioning that because some were commenting on the news reporting skills of the author. It wasn't a news piece (in the sense of reporting as a journalist) at all.

[awboater]

Since this was a foreign flagged vessel, does it even need to be ADA compliant?

[98Charlie]

Since this was a foreign flagged vessel, does it even need to be ADA compliant?

The short answer is yes. It was covered a couple of pages back.

 

(And no, I haven't read every post either:))

 

Charlie

[sasset]

Which explains the tone, opinion, and bias in the article. The author was writing as a columnist which is different than a reporter. Just mentioning that because some were commenting on the news reporting skills of the author. It wasn't a news piece (in the sense of reporting as a journalist) at all.

 

Are you referring to FOX News?

[dmwnc1959]

Cruise Critic interviewed Celebrity and the nude charter operator. Here's what we learned: http://www.cruisecritic.com/news/news.cfm?ID=4446

 

Hope this helps to clear up some of the situation.

 

Excellent, excellent follow-up. I agree that this is what the originating author should have published instead of the apparently biased and un-checked opinion piece. Well done, Cruise Critic in getting to the bottom of the story.

[cruisecrasy]

A person doesn't do his cruising 'homework', doesn't fill out the forms necessary, doesn't take any assistance with him - in this gentlemans? case his wife and then is going to sue.... Ahhh wait a mo..!!! Does anyone else wonder like I am if this was the mission in the first place after the fellow discovered his wife cldn't go - As she has assisted him in the past he knew full well he needed help and not light help either. Please don't expect me to believe he thought OR would even expect a Butler to assist him bathing, getting into & out of bed & on & off a toilet :O... Poor Butler wldn't have any time for his other pax...so either the fellow is stupid, greedy or both!!

 

...I'm hoping he can't win in a courtroom - please tell me that the justice system doesn't reward either stupidity or greed - please!!

 

This has been great CC - It's been a most interesting thread and the folks posting have demonstrated a great degree of intelligence & understanding for the most part - made some very interesting comments, observations & just really enjoyable repartee IMO anyway.

Thanks to all who posted!! :)

[cruisecrasy]

So very sorry triple post...:(

[cruisecrasy]

Again so sorry - last one of triple post..:(

[discjoker]

Are you referring to FOX News?

 

No, referring to the article that the OP posted which generated all of these posts. Not sure what you are talking about :confused:.

[Lois R]

So very sorry triple post...:(

 

Hi,:) don't apologize...the boards have been acting crazy lately:eek::rolleyes::confused:

taking forever to load and then it is funky when the post finally submits.

So its not just you.

[ilovetexas]

I won't add to what everyone except the OP has been saying, since the prevailing opinion is obvious.

 

I will say, however, that I have already emailed Celebrity this morning with a word of support on this issue and I hope that all of you do as well. I get sick of companies caving in to things like this in the interest of public opinion. We need to make sure they know what public opinion is on this one.

 

I don't want to see my cruise fares go up because of someone else's lack of personal responsibility.

[dmwnc1959]

The problem with an opinion piece such as this is that so many news outlets and websites have picked it up and will most likely NEVER run a followup or do their own investigative reporting such as Cruise Critic did. And once they leave the story open-ended so many people (target audience?) will form a negative biased opninion of the cruise line simply based on this one article. I am sure that the originating authors name, email, and phone number are somewhere to be found on that article just in case those in support of Celebrity Cruises also wish to express their personal opinion to the columnist. ;)

[ilovetexas]

The problem with an opinion piece such as this is that so many news outlets and websites have picked it up and will most likely NEVER run a followup or do their own investigative reporting such as Cruise Critic did. And once they leave the story open-ended so many people (target audience?) will form a negative biased opninion of the cruise line simply based on this one article. I am sure that the originating authors name, email, and phone number are somewhere to be found on that article just in case those in support of Celebrity Cruises also wish to express their personal opinion to the columnist. ;)

 

Excellent idea, here's a link to all his info, as well as all the editors. This way, everyone can express their opinion (good, bad or indifferent) directly to the source of the news story.

 

http://theoaklandpress.com/contact/

[The_Big_M]

Which explains the tone, opinion, and bias in the article. The author was writing as a columnist which is different than a reporter. Just mentioning that because some were commenting on the news reporting skills of the author. It wasn't a news piece (in the sense of reporting as a journalist) at all.

 

But it's still a very poor job as an opinion piece.

 

People can have an opinion - that's fine - but for the writer to omit such key facts as the reason for disembarkation as well as the originating situation makes the article intended to mislead. No journalist, reporter or columnist worth their salt does that. They support their opinion in a logical way, not by misleading. It's only when the facts don't support your own stance that you need to resort to such chicanery.

[discjoker]

But it's still a very poor job as an opinion piece.

 

People can have an opinion - that's fine - but for the writer to omit such key facts as the reason for disembarkation as well as the originating situation makes the article intended to mislead. No journalist, reporter or columnist worth their salt does that. They support their opinion in a logical way, not by misleading. It's only when the facts don't support your own stance that you need to resort to such chicanery.

 

I agree, it was still poorly written.

[kitkat9438]

ONE person wrote about their experiences in a handicapped accessible room on the Century, and we don't even know if it was the same room, or the same issue. In fact, that person even said the lip getting into the bathroom as only an issue if the wheelchair was oriented in a particular way, otherwise there wasn't a problem.

 

There are a few issues here:

 

1 - The passenger apparently did not let the tour operator know of his issues, and missed several requirements in the cruise contract WRT expectations of/for passengers with disabilities.

2 - He clearly expected the butler was going to be providing services not contained within the butler's contracted duties with the line and the tour operator

3 - The passenger alleges that he 'paid extra' (according to the original article) to have a butler 'assigned' to assist him - clearly not the case, as we all know, but more hyperbole designed to do nothing but put the cruise line on the defensive. (That statement, BTW, clearly shows that he knew he was going to need assistance above & beyond what a passenger would normally expect, calling into question your suggestion that he may have been 100% self-sufficient.)

4 - Celebrity/RCL is really not the putative tortfeasor here, the ship was chartered by the tour group, his contract was with them first, and only with Celebrity by virtue of any assignment or pass-through from the tour group. My guess is that suing a nude cruise tour operator would not be as sensational or make him as sympathetic as suing Celebrity/RCL

5 - The tour operator went WAY above & beyond and arranged for an aide for him when they were made aware that he was NOT self-sufficient as required by the contract he signed, and even moved people around so that the aide could be housed close to his accommodation - he refused to retain the services of the aide. They were under NO obligation to attempt to make things work out for him so that he could continue on the cruise.

6 - He had the opportunity to bring someone other than his wife when she canceled, he chose not to. He should have considered a caregiver.

7 - He CHOSE to debark. He was not 'kicked off' the ship, he had an option to hire an aide that was found for him or to obtain his own aide, in order to continue on the ship for the remainder of his vacation, when it was found he violated the terms of his contract. He /chose/ not to do so.

8 - He CHOSE a flight that had a layover in Haiti. Neither Celebrity/RCL nor the tour operator forced him onto that flight. That whole part of his story is hyperbole designed to make the reader feel more sorry for him.

 

Neither the tour operator nor Celebrity owes him anything, least of all a refund of his cruise ticket/plane ticket home. He is an adult of sound mind who entered into a contract, the terms of which were freely available, and which he chose to breach. There is no remedy under the law for him, and I hope that Celebrity tells him to pound sand.

 

(BTW - I'm the parent of a handicapped adult. I'm not unsympathetic to his situation, but he was in full control of the outcome of his vacation. He has no one to blame but himself.)

 

All great points!!! I happen to agree with you.

 

And OP, if the man slips and falls off the toliet and can't get up by himself, I would definitely say that he is not "self-sufficient" and needs help. Surely if you ever studied law, you would know about "facts". Apparently you are well acquainted with the man in question and his attorney and have worked with them, according to another poster (which you never even responded to) and you should be aware of the "facts" and that this man was not "dumped" from the ship (as you said in your opening remark), but given the opportunity to get the assistance he needed to continue on with his cruise vacation. The article is indeed rediculous stating the man "made sure he’d receive extra assistance on the cruise before he bought the ticket" and paid $4,000 (which was actually the cost for both him and his wife, but it made it sound like he paid extra for a personal assistant) for a butler to be "assigned to him", which is impossible with the cruiseline contract.

 

This man was totally 100% responsible for himself and his own actions and knew or should have known that he needed assistance and would not be able to rely on the butler for his day to day assistance. He cannot blame Celebrity, Royal Caribbean or anyone else for his misfortunes and his own personal choices with regard to the cruise, the cabin he chose, or the flight arrangements. No one made this man get on the ship by himself even though he paid for another passenger and could have had someone else accompany him to assist him. No one made this man refuse to accept the help of a nurse or caregiver when the charter company went out of their way to help him. A cruiseline is not a nursing home or an assisted living facility and it's crew is not trained or required for assistance as such.

 

I think it's a shame that this man, the "journalist" and you (if you are connected with this man and his lawyer) are all mispresenting the facts in a way to make the cruise line look bad and seem at fault.

[wvufan]

If anyone ought to sue anyone, you'd think it was the people who were stuck being his tablemates. ;):D

 

I really hope that nobody caves in to this guy and that he receives no compensation or award for his own negligence, but suspect that there will be a settlement simply to avoid ongoing negative publicity fueled by rags such as the Oakland paper.

 

On the other hand, I would hope that responsible organizations related to people with disabilities would distance themselves from his case or perhaps even advocate in favor of the cruiseline and tour operator.

 

OOOEEE :D:D Bob and Phyl

[dmwnc1959]

The problem with an opinion piece such as this is that so many news outlets and websites have picked it up and will most likely NEVER run a followup or do their own investigative reporting such as Cruise Critic did. And once they leave the story open-ended so many people (target audience?) will form a negative biased opninion of the cruise line simply based on this one article.

 

This is exactly what I was getting at: CRUISE LAW NEWS has named Celebrity Cruises the Worst Cruise Line in the World, simply based off this ONE opinion piece. :mad:

 

http://www.cruiselawnews.com/articles/worst-cruise-line-in-the-world/

[ISABELLA]

Why would a disable person will go on chartered nude cruise? Is he a nudist?

[discjoker]

Why would a disable person will go on chartered nude cruise? Is he a nudist?

 

Does it matter? Seriously, let's seperate out the fact that it was a nude cruise. It has nothing to do with the topic at hand.