Seabourn's "house wines"

[Mr Luxury]

I am not sure that the problem lies with the price point.

I have a suspicion that whoever is responsible at Seabourn for the wine selection and buying, is at fault.

[FKGirl]

I am not sure that the problem lies with the price point.

I have a suspicion that whoever is responsible at Seabourn for the wine selection and buying, is at fault.

 

I think that is absolutely the case.

[laryrob]

I think that is absolutely the case.

 

it definitely is the case. Living in Seattle i would be happy to help SB gratis with the wine selections. I was in a grocery store 2 blks from their headquarters yesterday and I counted 30 wines there in the $15-20 range offered at a 15% discount that were better than the wines we had on our cruise last Dec and those posted by people on more recent cruises--and I'm sure a bigger bulk discount w/b avaiiable. I wonder if CCL is buying for all their cruise lines together so SB is being thrown in with Carnival and the other lines?

Selecting decent well priced wines isn't all that difficult as evidenced by the many suggested wines quickly posted above.

[laryrob]

it definitely is the case. Living in Seattle i would be happy to help SB gratis with the wine selections. I was in a grocery store 2 blks from their headquarters yesterday and I counted 30 wines there in the $15-20 range offered at a 15% discount that were better than the wines we had on our cruise last Dec and those posted by people on more recent cruises--and I'm sure a bigger bulk discount w/b avaiiable. I wonder if CCL is buying for all their cruise lines together so SB is being thrown in with Carnival and the other lines?

Selecting decent well priced wines isn't all that difficult as evidenced by the many suggested wines quickly posted above.

I'll let you know what is on the Odyssey next week but I'll bring some of my own even though i have to drag it half way around the world to Athens where we board!

[wripro]

I do not think Seabourn or any luxury line plans to spend $20 per bottle even with discounts for mass purchasing. I have no earthly idea what their true budget is but I suspect it's an overall figure as opposed to a certain amount per bottle. To me the bottom line is that although I would certainly prefer to have a higher quality on offer it is not a deal breaker. If it is a deal breaker for someone then their only option is to stop sailing Seabourn and find another luxury line which offers better wines. Good luck with that.

[sananda]

Havent we heard enough about bad wine on SB. There isnt any bad wine (unless it is off) some appeal more than others. How many different types of wine are on the market and I would think there are a lot of those wont suit your pallete.

My answer to you and others and to quote you "I would be willing to pay a couple hundred dollars more for drinkable wine" buy a package on the boat or bring a carton of your own selection on board

 

First, I have already said above that I had an intellectual hang-up about paying extra for wine on an all-inclusive vacation. If the wine quality remains poor, I won't make this mistake again. To say that there are no bad wines is pretty ridiculous. Making wine is like cooking. Do you expect us to believe that there a no bad recipes, chefs or bad ingredients that result in disgusting food? Just because you get equally drunk off bad wine doesn't make it taste delicious when poorly made.

 

Many of the wines served were poorly made and / or poorly stored. There were wines that were oxidized (results in a flat, dull taste), maderized (literally baked until the cork pushes partly out and wine takes on an almond flavor) and refermented (has a fuzziness on the tongue). When the sauvignon blancs from Sancerre were served the aroma of pipi du chat was strong enough to make you drop. Other characteristics present in the wines served that I found unpalatable were brettanomyces (sweaty horse saddle) TCA (wet cardboard) and TDN (petroleum). Don't even get me started on the awful Egri Bikaver wine they had. Sometimes these characteristics are intentional and when done properly make an interesting wine. More often they occur in cheap poorly made wines, where people don't know what they are doing.

[intel]

First, I have already said above that I had an intellectual hang-up about paying extra for wine on an all-inclusive vacation. If the wine quality remains poor, I won't make this mistake again. To say that there are no bad wines is pretty ridiculous. Making wine is like cooking. Do you expect us to believe that there a no bad recipes, chefs or bad ingredients that result in disgusting food? Just because you get equally drunk off bad wine doesn't make it taste delicious when poorly made.

 

Many of the wines served were poorly made and / or poorly stored. There were wines that were oxidized (results in a flat, dull taste), maderized (literally baked until the cork pushes partly out and wine takes on an almond flavor) and refermented (has a fuzziness on the tongue). When the sauvignon blancs from Sancerre were served the aroma of pipi du chat was strong enough to make you drop. Other characteristics present in the wines served that I found unpalatable were brettanomyces (sweaty horse saddle) TCA (wet cardboard) and TDN (petroleum). Don't even get me started on the awful Egri Bikaver wine they had. Sometimes these characteristics are intentional and when done properly make an interesting wine. More often they occur in cheap poorly made wines, where people don't know what they are doing.

 

WOW have I stoked your boiler. Your comments are under my comments of "unless it is off". Dont blame the producer and we are surely not talking about 2/3 tier vineyards Are you intimating that Seabourn wines are in this category and you have had them onboard.?

I watched a TV program last evening called "Chateau Chunder" re Australia's push into overseas wine markets. It would do you good as an apparent connoinseur of fine wines.

One extract was at a judging in Europe by a panel of experts. One wine Penfolds Grange Hermitage, it received many derogatry comments. Later in the judging they were given the same wine , diguised and they sang the merits of it. That wine sells in the excess of $500 per bottle.

Those judges remind me of you. God knows what you say of our screwtops

[themed4me]

No problem with your screwtops. It's your wines with the animals on the label that I object to! :-)

 

PS Sananda is absolutely spot-on in his/her observations.

[wripro]

sananda,

 

You are obviously very knowledgeable about wine and I can understand how important it is to the enjoyment of your meal. I venture to say no included wines could live up to your standards as you are probably used to a better quality of the grape. I have met others like you on Seabourn cruises and they have simply gotten over their intellectual hangup about paying extra for the wines the wish to drink. Their solution has been to bring aboard enough bottles to cover the length of the cruise. Some of them have been very generous and shared their bounty with fellow passengers. It worked for them. Here's the bottom line. You will never get the level of wine you seem to be used to included so you have four options....bring your own , purchase from the connaisseur's list, lower your standards or stop sailing Seabourn.

[Flamin_June]

...... or pinch nostrils tightly when imbibing.....

[sananda]

Although I drink wine nearly everyday, I am by no means an expert. In fact, my tastes are common. We were at a double blind (neither the drinker nor the person who poured the wine) taste test where midrange wines were compared to their more expensive counterparts. For example the Berringer cabernet sauvignon was compared to the private reserve of this varietal, Caymus to Caymus special selection, Robert Mondavi private selection to Opus One,etc. To the dismay of all, almost everyone (including myself) preferred the less expensive wines. Only the true wine expert had a preference to the more expensive wines, and this was not true in all cases. However, with my experience I can easily identify poorly made and spoiled wines.

 

What I am failing to articulate clearly is how out of place the extremely inexpensive and poorly made wines were with the rest of the luxury on Seabourn. Once I became aware how bad things were, I started logging all the offered wines on the Sojourn. The average retail price was less than $5 a bottle. It's as if some bean counter at Seabourn has taken a very American perspective and decided that any wine with a meal is rather luxurious, no matter how cheap it is. To highlight what is going on with the wine, please indulge this example.

 

What if when you were on Seabourn and everything was the same (caviar, rooms, service, etc.) but now they served good wine that you knew to cost at least $50 a bottle. Then you went to lunch and they served you a McDonald's Happy Meal and at dinner they gave you a meal from Friday's, with the nice wine selection. The next day there was an Italian theme, so Sbarro pizza for lunch and Olive Garden for dinner. Worse yet, they didn't always serve food from big chains with rigorous quality control standards, so some of what you were served tasted badly and you thought some of it might be spoiled. Then I come on cruise critic to let people know what's going on and I am told that food is food, why am I being so picky? Wouldn't this seem odd to you? Well, this is the intellectual equivalent with what they are doing with the house wines.

 

So I am left with three of the four options wripro outlined. My standards are not the problem, the selection of the wine list is.

[FKGirl]

 

What I am failing to articulate clearly is how out of place the extremely inexpensive and poorly made wines were with the rest of the luxury on Seabourn. Once I became aware how bad things were, I started logging all the offered wines on the Sojourn. The average retail price was less than $5 a bottle. It's as if some bean counter at Seabourn has taken a very American perspective and decided that any wine with a meal is rather luxurious, no matter how cheap it is.

 

I actually think you articulated it quite well, and many of us agree with you. Something doesn't have to be expensive to be good or palatable, and really all it takes is a little bit of thought and not to just take whatever the distributors want to get rid of (or have the highest margins on...).

[marchanxiety]

If a wine is spoiled you should send it back. I do that with wines by the glass when they are old or gone bad. There were a couple of undrinkable wines (not "spoiled", just lousy) on our January cruise.

But the reds really were better on the Soujourn two weeks ago.

[marchanxiety]

Related to the sophistication of palettes, I attended a party at which the wines were provided by the Chapellet vineyard with one of the Chapellet family there to talk about them. There was quite a variety of reds at various price points all over $25 a bottle. There was a small quantity of their super premium which retails for over $100 a bottle. Prices weren't given. The super premium was the one that everyone liked best, and the better wines were all gone before the end of the evening. This was not a crew of wine experts, but they did prefer the better wines.

[Sadie Lady]

Sananda, you actually articulated this very well, and I agree wholeheartedly! I enjoy good wine also, but my "house" wine at home usually retails for less than $15, and I never have problems finding good value wines. Hopefully the wine buyer for Seabourn will be reading this and will maybe adjust their buying strategy. There are many mass produced wines that retail for less than $15-$20/bottle, so there really is no excuse for Seabourn to keep buying crummy wine. But considering this probably won't happen in time for my next cruise to Aust/NZ in January, we will be purchasing wine from the local wineries and bringing it on board. And Yes, we love to share our wine, so anyone cruising out of Auckland on Jan. 22, please join our roll call. So far, we are the only ones on the ship!

Cheers!

Sue

[Mr Luxury]

Here's the bottom line. You will never get the level of wine you seem to be used to included

 

I fall under this category and just purchase from the list or bring wine on board.

But,the problem remains that Seabourn is serving some poor wine that is well under the standard for most average wine drinkers.

[wripro]

On those nights when I do not purchase from the "list" I have somehow always been able to find one or two wines that are pleasant enough to drink by talking to the wine waiter (notice I do not call him/her a sommelier) and finding out what else is available. Perhaps the difference here is one of expectations. I have been sailing on Seabourn for many years and have come to expect a certain quality in the wines and no more so I am never disappointed. If I want something better I pay for it. If I don't want to pay I accept what I can find that works. It just doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the cruise.

[laryrob]

On those nights when I do not purchase from the "list" I have somehow always been able to find one or two wines that are pleasant enough to drink by talking to the wine waiter (notice I do not call him/her a sommelier) and finding out what else is available. Perhaps the difference here is one of expectations. I have been sailing on Seabourn for many years and have come to expect a certain quality in the wines and no more so I am never disappointed. If I want something better I pay for it. If I don't want to pay I accept what I can find that works. It just doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the cruise.

i agree it doent detract-just doesnt enhance

[sananda]

For me, it did detract for the following reasons.

 

Although I agree with wripro that if you are persistent, you can always find 1 or 2 wines that are drinkable on a given night, sometimes the only drinkable wines did not complement or even clashed with my food choice. For example, the night I wanted the rack of lamb, I was forced to drink a chardonnay. You shouldn't have to make these compromises on a luxury vacation.

 

Along the lines of the bottom of the barrel wine selection being out of place with a luxury vacation, I was a bit offended that they were being so cheap. Ask yourself honestly. Would any of you serve a $5 bottle (often times less) to guests? Would any of you give these wines as gifts? My wife and I were celebrating our 10 year anniversary and for several days various staff dropped hints that we should expect something "very special" that night. When we came back to the room there was a really nice cake and a bottle of Rosemount Shiraz. They spent more money frosting the cake than on that wine. We were happy with the delicious cake, ate it with some milk and gave them back the wine.

 

Or why did they make us order champagne by the glass instead of just giving us a bottle? We had guests in our cabin, with 5 drinkers. We were forced to order 5 individual glasses because of policy. What a pain. Did they not think we would be able to finish the bottle? It just meant 2 trips for the waitstaff.

[Harvey2442]

I agree the policy of only serving champagne by the glass in the suites after the welcome aboard bottle has gone is ridiculous as if any guest would want to horde the on board free champagne to take ashore!!!. Whilst in itself not a deal breaker it leaves a very unpleasant feeling about what is a luxury line. - This only came in as a policy post HAL and they really don't understand the product - perhaps next year with increase fares being quoted they will return to what it should be.

[frantic36]

For me, it did detract for the following reasons.

 

Although I agree with wripro that if you are persistent, you can always find 1 or 2 wines that are drinkable on a given night, sometimes the only drinkable wines did not complement or even clashed with my food choice. For example, the night I wanted the rack of lamb, I was forced to drink a chardonnay. You shouldn't have to make these compromises on a luxury vacation.

 

Along the lines of the bottom of the barrel wine selection being out of place with a luxury vacation, I was a bit offended that they were being so cheap. Ask yourself honestly. Would any of you serve a $5 bottle (often times less) to guests? Would any of you give these wines as gifts? My wife and I were celebrating our 10 year anniversary and for several days various staff dropped hints that we should expect something "very special" that night. When we came back to the room there was a really nice cake and a bottle of Rosemount Shiraz. They spent more money frosting the cake than on that wine. We were happy with the delicious cake, ate it with some milk and gave them back the wine.

 

Or why did they make us order champagne by the glass instead of just giving us a bottle? We had guests in our cabin, with 5 drinkers. We were forced to order 5 individual glasses because of policy. What a pain. Did they not think we would be able to finish the bottle? It just meant 2 trips for the waitstaff.

 

 

I do understand your frustration and angst about the wine situation. But as Wripro and others have suggested as we like the rest of the Seabourn product so much we work around it. We also make sure we comment about it on the guest comment cards and hopefully this will help change their selection.

 

May I respectfully make a suggestion. If the wine choice is so important for your definition of a luxury cruise then maybe sail on Crystal. Their wine choice from the included wines was the only thing superior to Seabourn for me. For the rest I will stick with Seabourn but then I am happy to do that as wine choice from the included pour is not my main definition of luxury.

 

Julie

[Chairsin]

Lots of good comments with different thoughts on dealing with the decline in wine quality. Julie, I have not sailed Crystal and and glad to see that they have maintained their fine wine standards. Frankly if Seabourn had never offered better( not great, but better, certainly IMHO in the red selections) wines this would not be an issue. I guess it is just over ten years on Seabourn we have certain expectations( not great epxpectations mind you) . I have no idea frankly as to whether this situation was brought about by bean counters or someone simply not paying attention. For those who want to attribute it to HAL let my say I noticed the difference before this changeover. Harvey, in this vein you should also know that they have been doling out champagne by the glassful at private cocktail parties since pre Hal ( I don't like this either but too many passengers abused the previous policy by marching off the ship with multiple bottles of bubbly -- we simply order the next round when the waiter delivers the first) .

 

As others have so aptly noted if you let the Bar Manager or the Sommelier (not the your beverage waiter) know that you care about wine and what you are looking for they can usually come up with something acceptable( and I don't think you should have to drink chardonnay with red meat). Usually what they will come up with is something from their odds lots bin -- wines they either bought in too small a quantity to be the nightly selection or something they bought again in a small lot at a port stop. And on some occasions I have know them to go shopping at the next port just to buy some wine to suit a passenger's request( i.e.. we don't have any pinot noir but we will look for some at the next port). A lot of this comes down to how you ask for something rather than arrogantly acting entitled( as I must admit i have seem some of my fellow passengers do).So will I keep sailing Seabourn in spite of this change -- most certainly -- for others it is your choice if this is a deal breaker. I hope you will find another cruise line that meets your expectations.

 

And for now I will keep soliciting suggestions from my fellow cruisers for the wine dream team to submit to Mr. Meadows (and get ready to book my next Seabourn cruise).

[wripro]

Here is the bottom line to me. EVERY luxury line has its benefits and its quirks. On Regent and Silversea they have eliminated included caviar. (Plus you have the same wine problems.) Crystal has only assigned seating for dinner other than the useless to me open dining by reservation, plus its ships are way too large to get into smaller ports. Regent includes shore excursions for a ridiculous cost from which you cannot opt out. Seabourn's wines may not be the best and they will only serve champagne by the glass. I look at the large picture and decide overall which line suits me best and it always comes out Seabourn. If someone else prefers another line for whatever reason then that's great. it's best to have options.

[Chairsin]

Quite right -- each of us has to decide what tradeoffs we are willing to make. And speaking of eliminating caviar -- I'm sure that some of you others remember when back in back in 2001 Seabourn tried to do away with the open bar policy( luckily that did not last for long).Let's hope they never try that again!:eek:

[laryrob]

Quite right -- each of us has to decide what tradeoffs we are willing to make. And speaking of eliminating caviar -- I'm sure that some of you others remember when back in back in 2001 Seabourn tried to do away with the open bar policy( luckily that did not last for long).Let's hope they never try that again!:eek:

 

Also the wine problem is fairly minor by comparason and easily solvable-BYO or buy some better bottles on board a couple of nights OR drink some of their good bourbon with your steak!