Is HAL moving downscale?

[SwissMyst]

I am curious how HAL has changed since I last sailed in 2007.

 

We came to HAL in early 2009 after a Crystal Cruise and have been sailing on her ever since - now trying to close in on 4 star Mariner status. So at least from 2009, we still think we get exceptional value from HAL and even did another Crystal Cruise this year so we have fresh comparisons.

 

No, i am not saying they are equivalents, but the extras Crystal offers are just not worth the hugely extra costs for us. More cruises for the dollar with HAL is our operating ethic.

 

We get good care on HAL and have no problems on our own HAL cruising experiences since early 2009 at all, for our own cruising needs. The only thing that we miss is the declining HAL emphasis on formal night dress guidelines which are strict on Crystal and getting to be very disregarded on eery cruise lately on HAL. It will be interesting to see how this goes on our upcoming Maasdam TA which I suspect will bring out the more traditional cruisers.

 

So this one noticeable change, but that is a growing individual HAL passenger choice and has nothing at all to do with HAL "downgrading". Crystal passengers love getting dressed up, so that is one part of the Crystal experience that remains special about them.

 

And they do plow in a lot more into interior decor and high end finishings, but those two items are really the only two where one gets a different experience on Crystal compared to HAL: dressier passengers and dressier public rooms.

[Himself]

My observation is that the Dining Room seems to be the same size on the Vista ships as it was on the R Class and many more people on the Vista with the result things were a bit closer on the Vista ships. Now I did not notice this on the Signature Class. I will note it because my last Voyage was on the AMSTERDAM (an R Class Ship) and my next voyage will be on the NIEUW AMSTERDAM (A Signature Class Ship.)

[SwissMyst]

My observation is that the Dining Room seems to be the same size on the Vista ships as it was on the R Class and many more people on the Vista with the result things were a bit closer on the Vista ships. Now I did not notice this on the Signature Class. I will note it because my last Voyage was on the AMSTERDAM (an R Class Ship) and my next voyage will be on the NIEUW AMSTERDAM (A Signature Class Ship.)

 

Here are my impressions between the two classes of ships (the big ones and the small ones):

 

On both the Zuiderdam and the Oosterdam the dining room is a very different configuration than the smaller ships - much more crowded feeling and not the single grand upper tier feeling of the upper balcony looking down at all the lower floor and windows. The Upper tier felt much more closed in.

 

The Vista ships have broken the Upper Tier into two kind of grand tiers that really don't look down on anything and circle part of it with several long rows of tables for 10 that look and feel more like feeding stations than intimate dining experiences.

 

There seems to be a much higher busy/people quotient in the Vista dining rooms than the sedate elegance one feels dining on the smaller R/S ships.

 

After the over-busy experience asking for a table on the railing on the Oosterdam (which was a very undesirable spot when that is the location we love on the R and S class ships) we asked to get moved to a far back corner on the Zuiderdam which was a lot less busy and intense since it reduced all the foot traffic going back and forth by the railings on the Upper Tier.

[PalmBeachMom]

A lot of good reasons exist to explain why HAL and other lines might be cutting their food per diems and other expenses, and most have been discussed in this thread.

 

However, many passengers are unintentionally putting pressure on HAL's bottom line.

 

We all want the lowest fare possible. But we often go too far. Frankly, I cringe every time I read a thread about bringing soda and wine onboard. Yes, it is permitted. HAL really has no choice....Beverages are a huge profit center for cruise ships and every passenger who does this sabotages the cruise line's ability to maintain standards. Same for the passengers who boast about spending zero dollars on board. I realize that times are tough for a lot of people and decisions on where to spend have to be made, but I take fewer cruises so that when I DO cruise, I can enjoy all that HAL has to offer, including spa treatments.

[igraf]

Not really helpful advice. If I get there early, then that just means that someone else doesn't get into the class. Too bad for the slower passengers?

 

What HAL could do instead is have several sessions of the digital workshops throughout the day, and on every day. The room isn't being used for much else. Most of the time the room is unoccupied.

 

igraf

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

....The digital workshop classes have been popular since they were introduced. Being on such a long cruise -- you should have caught on right away -- get there early!![/color][/size][/font][/b]

[Hlitner]

As for Lobster tails -- no big deal there as far as I am concerned. JMO -- they are awful -- too salty and too small.

The digital workshop classes have been popular since they were introduced. Being on such a long cruise -- you should have caught on right away -- get there early!!

 

I admit to being a lobster lover (ate lunch off the ship at every opportunity on our recent New England/Canada cruise) and have long been puzzled at the number of cruisers that put such a high importance on the so-called lobster served on cruise ships. At best, they are just OK lobster tails (anyone in New England would not even call those things real lobster) and are often overcooked and tough. Sure, we order the lobster tail (or other lobster dishes) on most of our cruises, but they are no biggie. Now those lunches we had (off the ship) in New England were very special because we could get real Maine lobster that was caught that very morning.

 

Hank

[piscesgal223]

The lobster they serve is just all right. Nothing to write home about.Same with Holland America's chocolate.Really low quality, IMO.

[TeamBozo]

Thanks to all of you for your thoughtful reponses. I had no intention of bashing HAL for trying to make a profit in a competitive market. I think the analogy to the airlines is interesting and disturbing. Everyone complains about the lack of space and service on airlines (especially relative to the old days), but nobody wants to pay anything but the lowest possible price. I am as guilty as the next guy for aggressively shopping for the lowest possible cruise prices.

 

I am hopeful that there is a sustainable business model that allows HAL to charge a premium and provide premium service (including food, activities, etc.). Perhaps this weak current economy is forcing some painful compromises that will get better as things improve. On the other hand, when HAL builds bigger ships or adds more cabins in drydock, those aren't going away. It sure would be nice if we had a choice from the various cruise lines--- pay extra and get more or go cheap and put up with the result. If they all get forced to go downscale we might lose that option. I always thought HAL had a nice niche, but perhaps there just isn't enough demand to sustain it.

[scamper]

I won't bash HAL either, because based on my experiences, they are hands down one of the best choices of the "mass market" lines. I would happily pay more to get better quality, but then as far as food goes, aside from the abysmal chocolate extravaganza, I have never had bad food on any HAL cruise. If I chose, I suppose I could dine in the Pinnacle every evening as my experiences there has been close to exceptional, but I just can't fault with anything I have ever eaten onboard. As far as anything else, I don't really participate in a lot of classes or seminars. Our last cruise on the Oosterdam, for example, I attended to seminar/cooking class on LeCirque and one on getting better sleep. I didn't attend a single show. I would just as soon be left to my own devices on sea days, sitting on my verandah and occasionally looking for dolphins or passing ships; doing circuits on the promenade. But, I guess, not everyone is ME! :)

[geocruiser]

A lot of good reasons exist to explain why HAL and other lines might be cutting their food per diems and other expenses, and most have been discussed in this thread.

 

However, many passengers are unintentionally putting pressure on HAL's bottom line.

 

We all want the lowest fare possible. But we often go too far. Frankly, I cringe every time I read a thread about bringing soda and wine onboard. Yes, it is permitted. HAL really has no choice....Beverages are a huge profit center for cruise ships and every passenger who does this sabotages the cruise line's ability to maintain standards. Same for the passengers who boast about spending zero dollars on board. I realize that times are tough for a lot of people and decisions on where to spend have to be made, but I take fewer cruises so that when I DO cruise, I can enjoy all that HAL has to offer, including spa treatments.

 

I wish I could order from HAL the soda I drink. Diet Dr. Pepper Caffeine Free.

I don't expect HAL to always stock it, but if I could prepaid an order of it would be great. I know it would never happen cause too many people like different sodas.

[sail7seas]

Laffnvegas is currently writing a Live From thread from aboard Oosterdam. In that thread a few days ago, she mentioned HAL now stocks Dr. Pepper and I think she said also Diet Dr Pepper so maybe your 'dream will come true'. :)

 

Here is the quote from one of her posts:

 

 

<snip>

I have some BIG news that might not be that a big of deal to many but.......Holland America now serves Dr. Pepper and Diet Dr. Pepper I am not a huge soda drinker but once in a while a crave a soda and the only soda I drink is a Diet Dr. Pepper. It tasted sooo good at lunch today.

<snip>

 

[Wannaknow]

We've gone on most of the "mass" cruiselines over the past several years, including HAL. There are some pluses & minuses in all of them. We don't consider HAL to be above the rest. HAL does have wonderful (usually) personnel and better-size cabins.

 

We've found OP's statements to be pretty much on target on our last HAL cruise (about 1-1/2 yrs. ago). For that reason, we decided to pay more and went on Oceania. Believe me, it is better to pay more - Oceania was wonderful. The food was very good. My only complaint is the smallness of the cabins and they are small.

[sail7seas]

We've gone on most of the "mass" cruiselines over the past several years, including HAL. There are some pluses & minuses in all of them. We don't consider HAL to be above the rest. HAL does have wonderful (usually) personnel and better-size cabins.

 

We've found OP's statements to be pretty much on target on our last HAL cruise (about 1-1/2 yrs. ago). For that reason, we decided to pay more and went on Oceania. Believe me, it is better to pay more - Oceania was wonderful. The food was very good. My only complaint is the smallness of the cabins and they are small.

 

Some of us choose to pay more and book large cabins on HAL and have a very comfortable space. The price is about the same for the suite on HAL vs. the small cabin on Oceania for many cruises but we are getting a much better accomodation on HAL. We think the service provided by HAL is wonderful so we are getting the things that matter to US. Of course, everyone decides for themselves.

 

It comes down to choice.....

To some, a large cabin means little or nothing but to others (DH and me), it is important.

 

[MightyQuinn]

We've found OP's statements to be pretty much on target on our last HAL cruise (about 1-1/2 yrs. ago). For that reason, we decided to pay more and went on Oceania. Believe me, it is better to pay more - Oceania was wonderful.

Up until last month, I also would have agreed with the OP. But we discovered a new and improved HAL on the Amsterdam in September. Our on-board experience was much better than we experienced when we were last aboard a HAL ship in ‘09.

 

Many things were different. We immediately noticed the vibrant new stateroom appointments, improved flow in the Lido, new Culinary Council choices in the MDR, introduction of Le Cirque and Canaletto, additional Pinnacle Grill menu items, outstanding digital workshops, improved daily programming and new HAL production shows. The only time we noticed crowding was in the very popular digital workshops, but since they were repeated regularly throughout the cruise, everyone could be accommodated with a little forethought. There was little obvious evidence of cost-cutting or moving down-market. Quite the contrary.

I agree with you that Oceania is wonderful, albeit at a different price point than HAL. Based on our recent experience, we thought HAL had moved up a notch and was deserving of its premium status. You may want to take another peek!

[hypercafe]

I think all lines and the travel industry is cutting back or charging more. I just read where hotels are starting to charge for things that used to be included, use of pool etc. What I don't like is putting more people on the ships. Most if not all of the lines are in the process of adding more cabins to existing ships at the expense of the public spaces, HAL is busy doing just this. What this shows me is people love to post here what they want etc but are not willing to pay for it. I would be very happy to pay more for the same itinerary on whatever line if I didn't have to wait in lines or play the seat game. It really doesn't matter what type of cabin you have as the public spaces are the public spaces.

[terrydtx]

The basic thing to remember when comparing mass marketed cruise lines like HAL is that they all are so very bottom line oriented and have to be to stay in business. If HAL has slipped some over the last few years their competition has as much or more and IMO, HAL is still way ahead of the others. My wife and I have decided that HAL will be the only cruise line for us in the future no matter what happens to food and service quality as we know any alternative line will not be any better. As we get closer to retirement HAL fits our lifestyle better than the competing cruise lines. HAL also has the best customer loyalty program out there with its Mariner Society. My Parents have been on about 8 Celebrity Cruises and they get less in X's Captain's club in perks than someone on HAL after only one cruise.

[PalmBeachMom]

I wish I could order from HAL the soda I drink. Diet Dr. Pepper Caffeine Free.

I don't expect HAL to always stock it, but if I could prepaid an order of it would be great. I know it would never happen cause too many people like different sodas.

 

Good point!

[iancal]

For us, HAL's loyalty program is not great-when compared to Celebrity or when compared to other loyalty programs in the travel industry. One reason is the cruise line oligopoly-they are hardly going to compete and give out freebees between so few parent companies in the club. The value of the loyalty plans are very personal-each plan has a different value to each customer based on that particular customer's wants and desires. The guy next door may feel the opposite to us.

 

I think that HAL does a great job. We get a lot of 'bang for our buck'. It is always easy to look back on the good old days and imagine that everything was wonderful. Sometimes the passage of time serves to cloud the equation. Cruise fares today, like airlines fares, are much less expensive for the vast majority of cruisers than they were 20 years ago. Many people are able to afford to cruise today who were not previously able to do that-or do it so often. HAL has been part of that. People who expect the kind of cruise environment that existed 20 years ago and more at the same price as we pay today are dreaming in technicolor.

 

HAL could in fact deliver a better, more sophisticated or more premium product if they wished and if they felt that the market would bear a substantial increase in fares-enought to fill all of their ships. Truth is, the market either won't or HAL missed the 'boat' on it to be trumped by Oceania and Azamara, etc.

[sail7seas]

I think all lines and the travel industry is cutting back or charging more. I just read where hotels are starting to charge for things that used to be included, use of pool etc. What I don't like is putting more people on the ships. Most if not all of the lines are in the process of adding more cabins to existing ships at the expense of the public spaces, HAL is busy doing just this. What this shows me is people love to post here what they want etc but are not willing to pay for it. I would be very happy to pay more for the same itinerary on whatever line if I didn't have to wait in lines or play the seat game. It really doesn't matter what type of cabin you have as the public spaces are the public spaces.

 

 

Please don't make that a sweeping across the board statement.

Check the prices of "S" and "SA" cabins on a great many itineraries. It's over $1,000 per day to sail Maasdam in an "S" cabin on Canada/New England itinerary.

 

Your statement, which I underlined, absolutely applies to many but definitely not to all. I agree that sometimes those who are paying the least request/expect the most. :eek: Again, not all.

 

[Viesczy]

We just returned from a 35 day Hawaii/Tahiti cruise on the Westerdam. Although we enjoyed ourselves, there were many troubling signs of cost cutting and crowding that give the impression the HAL is moving downscale in the cruise marketplace. We've done many cruises with HAL and love the service and ships. But there seem to be too many passengers competing for space in the activities, theater, etc. The menu is heavier on standard entrees with fewer high-end choices (it was over 3 weeks before we saw a lobster tail). Gym classes, computer classes, dance classes and shows in the evening were quite full---often to the point of not being turned away due to lack of space. Our travel documents listed 10 formal nights, but there were only 7 in 5 weeks.

There were many other things I could list where it was apparent that HAL is cutting back.

 

Is this a conscious decision by HAL to move out of the premium segment and become a more mainstream cruise line? Some of their cruise prices are quite attractive (low) and I wonder if they are on a cost cutting program to make it work. Have you also noticed a decline in some of these areas?

 

TeamBozo,

I'm sorry the cruise didn't live up to your hopes! We're on the exact cruise next fall.

 

As stated earlier, sadly there are size constraints to most of the classes and with the # passengers on the Westy not much can be done. Wasn't so much of cost of space. Longer cruises always have classes/events that fill up.

 

Now about the Vista class ships, as they've seem to have taken some negative heat in this thread, IMNSHO they are the best thing about HAL. They don't feel like we're going to have to man the oars to generate speed and there is more life to them with the hustle & bustle of those few more passengers. The Vistas give the feel of HAL with more energy. To me that is a great thing, that's why we chose next fall on the Westy rather than going on Princess for our cruise (approx 30 days to Hawaii/South Pacific).

 

Again Team Bozo, I'm sorry your cruise wasn't all you hoped it would be. You've mentioned what you didn't like, please wax poetic about what you liked about your 35 days.

 

Derek

[bepsf]

Truth is ... HAL missed the 'boat' on it to be trumped by Oceania and Azamara, etc.

 

Indeed - Oceania, Cunard (Grill Class) and Crystal have proven that there remains a market for a true premium product...

...which is what the HAL brand was intended to be when Carnival Corporation made it's purchase.

However, you can't be a premium product when it's priced like mainstream brands and when you have too much capacity.

[earljr]

I admit to being a lobster lover (ate lunch off the ship at every opportunity on our recent New England/Canada cruise) and have long been puzzled at the number of cruisers that put such a high importance on the so-called lobster served on cruise ships. At best, they are just OK lobster tails (anyone in New England would not even call those things real lobster) and are often overcooked and tough. Sure, we order the lobster tail (or other lobster dishes) on most of our cruises, but they are no biggie. Now those lunches we had (off the ship) in New England were very special because we could get real Maine lobster that was caught that very morning.

 

Hank

 

Totally agree ---

[mauiedin87]

4 of our friends just returned from the 30-day cruise on the Westerdam. Haven't heard very much from them yet, because they're all sick, but what little I've heard is that things were not great. Of course, Holland America couldn't do much about the weather, but what they said was that the food was o.k. but bland (they bought some spices of their own while in Hawaii to liven the food up a little), that the dance bands had no clue what a Tango was, that disembarkation was abysmally slow, etc.etc.

 

All this leads me to think that Holland America is also being "Carnivalized", a feeling we had on the Golden Pricess two years ago.

 

At least maybe we have a "heads up" on what to expect on the Oosterdam next March!

[sail7seas]

I admit to being a lobster lover (ate lunch off the ship at every opportunity on our recent New England/Canada cruise) and have long been puzzled at the number of cruisers that put such a high importance on the so-called lobster served on cruise ships. At best, they are just OK lobster tails (anyone in New England would not even call those things real lobster) and are often overcooked and tough. Sure, we order the lobster tail (or other lobster dishes) on most of our cruises, but they are no biggie. Now those lunches we had (off the ship) in New England were very special because we could get real Maine lobster that was caught that very morning.

 

Hank

 

 

You can't even use lobster on the ship in the same sentence as the lobster we eat every year on our Canada /New England cruises.

 

Lobster in Boston, Bar Habor, Charlottetown and definitely Halifax is a whole different, way more wonderful food.

 

I never order the ship's lobster on any of our cruises.

To begin with, I can't stand it drowned in butter. If it's good and sweet, it doesn't need butter at all IMO

[Wannaknow]

Some of us choose to pay more and book large cabins on HAL and have a very comfortable space. The price is about the same for the suite on HAL vs. the small cabin on Oceania for many cruises but we are getting a much better accomodation on HAL. We think the service provided by HAL is wonderful so we are getting the things that matter to US. Of course, everyone decides for themselves.

 

It comes down to choice.....

To some, a large cabin means little or nothing but to others (DH and me), it is important.

 

 

As you say, it's a matter of choice. We sailed in a suite on HAL, and a concierge level (but tiny) cabin on Oceania. The cabin was lovely but too small and inconvenient. I'd still sail Oceania again in a heartbeat. The Oceania experience was awesome, in my opinion, whereas HAL, though pleasant, was nothing we'd care to repeat. Again, in my opinion. To each his own.:)