NORO on Westerdam? We didn't know.

[BruceMuzz]

My colleagues at CDC estimate that on ANY cruise departing ANY American port this time of year, at least 60 passengers board the ship with NLV.

 

If you sail on a very large ship, with large numbers of passengers and crew onboard, on a relatively short cruise (7 days or less) it is very difficult to pass the 2% threshold the CDC has established for reporting suspected NLV outbreaks - unless it is a major one.

 

If you sail on a busy cruise on Allure of the Seas with 6,500 pax and 3,500 crew on a 7 day itinerary, the 2% CDC threshold for reporting an outbreak is 200 pax and crew. That means that up to 199 pax and crew can report ill and the ship is not required to do anything. In most scenarios, many of these these sick people would be running all over the ship, contaminating everything you are touching. You're next.......................

 

The word SUSPECTED is very important. There is no reliable test available to give rapid results on NLV illness. In most cases, by the time the medical people confirm that the virus / illness is NLV, the cruise is over, the sick people have recovered, and everyone has returned home.

 

The only question is; How many know they have it and refuse to divulge the truth, and how many contracted it on the airplane or in a hotel and do not yet know they have it?

 

An additional question is; How many passengers go ashore in a port where there are other ships with the same problems, touching things that the sick passengers from the other cruise lines are touching, then bringing the infection back on to their ship?

[Hlitner]

We will not judge HAL on whether they did the right thing by not notifying the OP of a prior Noro problem. But we do have a question for the OP. Let us suppose you were given a letter, as you boarded your cruise, notifying you that the prior cruise had a major Noro outbreak. What would you do? Go home? Hide in your cabin (which might harbor the nasty virus)? Go to a bar and talk to other passengers about the prior cruise? Avoid eating food in any dining venue and go on a starvation diet?

 

Just curious.

 

Hank

[gwesq]

We will not judge HAL on whether they did the right thing by not notifying the OP of a prior Noro problem. But we do have a question for the OP. Let us suppose you were given a letter, as you boarded your cruise, notifying you that the prior cruise had a major Noro outbreak. What would you do? Go home? Hide in your cabin (which might harbor the nasty virus)? Go to a bar and talk to other passengers about the prior cruise? Avoid eating food in any dining venue and go on a starvation diet?

 

Just curious.

 

Hank

 

I would have done exactly what I did do - disinfect my cabin, be diligent about hand washing, not use the pool or hot tub (Caribbean waters are soo nice) and avoid the self serve restaurants.

 

As for who questioned why I am concerned if I didn't get it - I'm not in poverty, yet I am concerned about poverty; I was not a victim of any major disaster, yet I am concerned about the victims, etc. Why does someone need to be personally affected to be concerned about something?

 

And as I, and several others here have said, that form letter is misleading in that it implies that other ships have had issues, but not the HAL ships, possibly, as stated by someone else, giving some a false sense of security. I am just generally against anything that is misleading.

 

I am surprised at some of the negative reaction I am getting to this post, which clearly PRAISED HAL and it's sanitation on my sailing.

[rothbury]

Just curious here....What is the incubation period for Noro? And, if you do get it how long does it last? Are there any medications that you can take ahead of time to lessen the effect? I remember reading a year or so ago they were working on a vaccination or something but never heard anymore about it.

[alwaysfrantic]

Someone mentioned the form and people not being truthful. I understand the cruiseline doesn't reimburse guests who are denied boarding for admitting to an illness in the last 3 days. If they have private insurance, the company could deny the claim because if you are not actually ill right then, you don't have the proper physician notes to say you are unable medically to cruise.

 

People may want to "do the right thing" but financially just really can not.

 

Maybe HAL does refund your costs right there, no quibbling. Please let me know if I am wrong about HAL.

Edited January 29, 2014 by alwaysfrantic

[Arwen]

Just curious here....What is the incubation period for Noro? And, if you do get it how long does it last? Are there any medications that you can take ahead of time to lessen the effect? I remember reading a year or so ago they were working on a vaccination or something but never heard anymore about it.

 

Never have been sick with Noro on any of my 16 cruises, but just a month ago, attended a neighbor's wedding and reception. That very night, I was sicker than imaginable!!! It was plenty wicked!

 

Found out later, speaking to the new bride that her MIL and FIL had to cancel their flight home, because, they too had become very ill.

 

It turns out about half the people attending became ill....within 24 hrs!

 

As for incubation...it is pretty short as I can attest.

 

Some people get various forms of noro...my husband had a slight gut ache and off and on diarrhea combined with lack of appetite for a full ten days. For me, I was like Mt. Vesuvius for a period of 6 hrs, fever, chills, fatigue for three days.

 

Often it is difficult to tell the difference between a noro outbreak and food poisoning. Perhaps that is one reason the CDC is interested to know which. Most who take sick at home are not going to go see the doctor just to find out which is which...as both have lots of similarities.

 

No vaccine yet..wish there would be. However, I did read, that once a person gets the norovirus...that there is a short time of immunity to getting it again, but that it wains at around week six.

 

The best to kill norovirus is bleach and water.

 

If a person 'gets sick' and that area is not promptly cleaned up with bleach and water, then anyone who goes near that 'hot spot' likely will get ill. Washing hands helps a lot, but if you walk through a spot where the virus has been 'aerosolized' due to a person suddenly taking ill....you will likely get it for sure.

 

More than you likely want to know......:eek:

[cbr663]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a wonderful website devoted to the norwalk virus (http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/). Here you can discover what the disease is, how it is spread and what steps to take to protect yourself from it.

 

I would especially recommend that you review the Resources and References section in which you will find a listing of products that are effective against norovirus. Many of the products that are listed on the page are difficult to find and many are limited to commercial usage only. I use this guide as my source and was able to find one product that I was familiar with quite easily.

[RJ2002]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a wonderful website devoted to the norwalk virus (http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/). Here you can discover what the disease is, how it is spread and what steps to take to protect yourself from it.

 

I would especially recommend that you review the Resources and References section in which you will find a listing of products that are effective against norovirus. Many of the products that are listed on the page are difficult to find and many are limited to commercial usage only. I use this guide as my source and was able to find one product that I was familiar with quite easily.

 

Thanks for sharing. Lots of useful information.

[lakbury]

My family of 4 was on the Jan. 4th cruise. None of us became ill but we were very careful with handwashing. Our understanding was that the outbreak was low in numbers but they were in full blown prevention mode. The pools and hot tubs were closed for several days but did re-open before the end of the cruise.

 

My biggest disappointment - the taco bar did not reopen. I think it was only open one day of seven. I'm all for the precautions being taken to reduce the spread but I did miss the taco bar!

 

The extra work it requires of the staff under these conditions is immense. We were told by the end of our week that the number of new cases was back to normal or below normal levels. Obviously the plan put in to action by the crew worked.

 

We had a great cruise on the Westerdam.

[Randyk47]

Speaking of Norovirus I just happen to have CNN on in the background and they're at the dock reporting on the Explorer of the Sea that just docked in New Jersey. This is the ship that had reportedly 600+ passengers and 50-60 crew infected. They terminated the cruise and sent it back to port a couple of days early. They're interviewing a passenger on his cell phone who was sick and isolated to his cabin. Needless to say he's not happy and not too excited about ever taking another cruise.

[cbr663]

My family of 4 was on the Jan. 4th cruise. None of us became ill but we were very careful with handwashing. Our understanding was that the outbreak was low in numbers but they were in full blown prevention mode. The pools and hot tubs were closed for several days but did re-open before the end of the cruise.

 

The extra work it requires of the staff under these conditions is immense. We were told by the end of our week that the number of new cases was back to normal or below normal levels. Obviously the plan put in to action by the crew worked.

 

 

I am curious, when you were told that the number of new cases was back to normal or below normal levels, did you ask what exactly this meant? Were you provided with a specific number of cases?

[cbr663]

Thanks for sharing. Lots of useful information.

 

I am glad that you found it useful. I discovered the link while visiting a physician's site on the issue. I was also surprised to discover that most common household products are not effective against noro. I had planned to purchase Clorox wipes to take with me on my cruise and was surprised to discover that Clorox household wipes do not contain bleach and are not effective against noro. Clorox does make a Healthcare Bleach Germicide wipe that is effective, but it isn't sold in Canada.

[Guinness1000]

My husband and I were on the Westerdam over New Years and as far as we could tell, no one was sick.

 

I loved the Purell dispensers everywhere. I used them every time I walked by one. Wish they were everywhere in stores and other public places on land too. We also washed our hands whenever possible as well.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Guinness1000

[sail7seas]

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has a wonderful website devoted to the norwalk virus (http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/). Here you can discover what the disease is, how it is spread and what steps to take to protect yourself from it.

 

I would especially recommend that you review the Resources and References section in which you will find a listing of products that are effective against norovirus. Many of the products that are listed on the page are difficult to find and many are limited to commercial usage only. I use this guide as my source and was able to find one product that I was familiar with quite easily.

 

 

Thank you for the link.

Would you kindly share with us the name of the product you use that is easy to find? I'm sure that would be helpful for many of us.

 

Thanks.

 

[cbr663]

The product that we use is Spray Nine. It is readily found in large home stores like Home Depot (I bought some 3 days ago there) and automotive stores also.

 

I checked its website and this is what it said:

 

Kills viruses and bacteria:

H1N1 Swine Flu, Influenza A2 Virus, Common Flu A2 Virus, Avian Flu H3N2 Virus, Salmonella Choleraesuis, Escherichia coli (E.coli), Hepatitis C Virus, Rhinovirus Type 37, Norwalk Virus, Herpes Simplex I and II, Poliovirus Type I, Rotavirus, MRSA, Streptococcus pyogenes, Shigella dysenteriae.

 

What I really like also that you only need to leave it on the surface for 45 seconds for it to disinfect. The one downside is that it is a liquid, but we just put a small spray bottle in our carry on and use it and a larger spray bottle in our checked luggage.

[lakbury]

I am curious, when you were told that the number of new cases was back to normal or below normal levels, did you ask what exactly this meant? Were you provided with a specific number of cases?

 

No, we were not provided, nor did we ask for specific numbers. A member of our family works in the food safety industry, reads the CDC website daily, and didn't feel it was appropriate to ask for specific numbers all with the understanding of the reporting requirements for this type of thing.

[Typhoon1]

Speaking of Norovirus I just happen to have CNN on in the background and they're at the dock reporting on the Explorer of the Sea that just docked in New Jersey. This is the ship that had reportedly 600+ passengers and 50-60 crew infected. They terminated the cruise and sent it back to port a couple of days early. They're interviewing a passenger on his cell phone who was sick and isolated to his cabin. Needless to say he's not happy and not too excited about ever taking another cruise.

 

I really don't consider Noro to be news any longer. Apparently CNN thinks it is. It may have been a story in 2001, those days have come and gone.

[RJ2002]

I really don't consider Noro to be news any longer. Apparently CNN thinks it is. It may have been a story in 2001, those days have come and gone.

 

I would say that close to 700 people sickened is newsworthy.

[BruceMuzz]

I would say that close to 700 people sickened is newsworthy.

 

If you think that is newsworthy - how about 10 million Americans sick with the same illness right now ?

 

That's about the number this week in the good old USA. Terrifying is it not?

10 million sickened and nobody is covering it.

Must be because they are not on a cruise ship.

 

Or maybe it is because NLV is just a cousin of the flu and nobody gets too excited about people having the flu every winter.

[kazu]

If you think that is newsworthy - how about 10 million Americans sick with the same illness right now ?

 

That's about the number this week in the good old USA. Terrifying is it not?

10 million sickened and nobody is covering it.

Must be because they are not on a cruise ship.

 

Or maybe it is because NLV is just a cousin of the flu and nobody gets too excited about people having the flu every winter.

 

Well the flu has certainly been newsworthy here - especially when there are deaths, sadly. there have been a number because of the strain - so it is big news in Canada as is the RCCL cruise line sailing.

 

Any cruise that is disrupted is going to make the news and honestly, you can't blame them one iota. I am just glad that I wasn't on that cruise.

 

Caveat - I am not blaming the cruise line - but I do feel for those on board - whether they were sick or not - they still had to suffer - JMO of course ;)

[RJ2002]

If you think that is newsworthy - how about 10 million Americans sick with the same illness right now ?

 

That's about the number this week in the good old USA. Terrifying is it not?

10 million sickened and nobody is covering it.

Must be because they are not on a cruise ship.

 

Or maybe it is because NLV is just a cousin of the flu and nobody gets too excited about people having the flu every winter.

 

I'll bet you are probably correct that norovirus infection, overall, doesn't get a lot of attention in the news because it is happening all over the place, and is not as easily traced to a single location, such as a cruise ship, or a nursing home, or a hotel. The number of people impacted on the Explorer of the Seas, coupled with the fact that the cruise was cut short as a result of the outbreak, contributed to the news aspects of this unfortunate situation.

 

May I ask your source which suggests that 10 million people are sick with norovirus right now? The CDC website says that 19-21 million are sickened annually. The 10 million figure you cite would indicate that half of the annual infections are occurring at the end of January. Just trying to understand if there is a seasonal aspect to the infection rate?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/overview.html

[Chelly]

I was on the Westerdam Jan. 4 2014 Sailing. It was superb! Yes, we were in Code Red. It did not, in any way, hurt my cruise experience.

 

HAL staff is the best in the world, in my opinion. I have never seen so many people work so hard, for so long, for so little, with smiles on their faces.

 

The only thing about the cruise that bothered me were some whiny passengers.

 

Oh yeah, THEY must be the ones who wrote those negative reviews!

Edited January 30, 2014 by Chelly

[Chelly]

I was on the Westerdam Jan. 4 2014 Sailing. It was superb! Yes, we were in Code Red. It did not, in any way, hurt my cruise experience.

 

HAL staff is the best in the world, in my opinion. I have never seen so many people work so hard, for so long, for so little with smiles on their faces.

 

The only thing about the cruise that bothered me were some whiny passengers.

 

Oh yeah, THEY must be the ones who wrote those negative reviews!

[Hlitner]

Not sure we can agree with Bruce...although we do share his love of cruising and ships. The incident on the Explorer represents the most passengers reported sick on a single cruise in more then 20 years (according to the CDC). By most standards that is considered newsworthy and we have actually seen some decent coverage that talked about the frequency of Noro, how easy it spreads, etc. We noticed that the stories on Fox did not criticize the cruise line, but rather stuck to the facts (unusual these days on the any news show).

 

Hank

[BruceMuzz]

I'll bet you are probably correct that norovirus infection, overall, doesn't get a lot of attention in the news because it is happening all over the place, and is not as easily traced to a single location, such as a cruise ship, or a nursing home, or a hotel. The number of people impacted on the Explorer of the Seas, coupled with the fact that the cruise was cut short as a result of the outbreak, contributed to the news aspects of this unfortunate situation.

 

May I ask your source which suggests that 10 million people are sick with norovirus right now? The CDC website says that 19-21 million are sickened annually. The 10 million figure you cite would indicate that half of the annual infections are occurring at the end of January. Just trying to understand if there is a seasonal aspect to the infection rate?

 

http://www.cdc.gov/norovirus/about/overview.html

 

The CDC estimated that just over 20 million Americans had NLV last year. This number is based on REPORTED cases.

How many Americans get what they call the "Stomach Flu", stay home for a few days to recover, and then report the case to the local hospital or the CDC? Maybe 10% to 25% ??

 

It's probably safe to guess that the real number of Americans who actually contract NLV when NOT on a cruise is closer to 40 or 50 million per year - or more.

NLV infection patterns follow the same patterns as the flu virus. The great majority of cases show up in the Winter Flu Season. That's why everyone gets so worked up about NLV on ships in January - but never in July.

It would not at all be surprising to find that 10 million Americans are sick with NLV this week. At least that many Americans have the flu this week - and the Flu is far less contagious.