Insignia Post Fire Location and Movement

[SellaVee]

Riveting though all this stuff is, guys, what I really want to find out from this thread is Insignia's Post Fire Location and Movement, like the title says, because I'm hoping to hop aboard in Singapore :o.

[Jancruz]

Riveting though all this stuff is, guys, what I really want to find out from this thread is Insignia's Post Fire Location and Movement, like the title says, because I'm hoping to hop aboard in Singapore :o.

 

At this time everything is on schedule and you will be able to board in Singapore..

Jancruz1

[Travelcat2]

At this time everything is on schedule and you will be able to board in Singapore..

Jancruz1

 

That is really great news! Thanks for the update.

[dwgreenlee]

I worked 4 years on the Pride of Aloha, which entered service about a year and a half before POA, as a US flag cruise ship. So I know a thing or two about the "cargo that talks back". The thing you have to realize about the US crew on the POA (which is the only REMAINING US flag cruise ship), is that every crew member, from the Captain to the dishwasher has to be a credentialed merchant mariner. This required recruiting, training, and certifying a completely new pool of labor. On international ships, only the deck and engine crew are mariners, and the hotel department gets their training onboard, and don't require credentials. This means that not only is there a vast pool of trained, experienced hotel department crew available, but that they are readily available (one call to a PI crewing agency gets a person on the next flight to the ship). With every crewmember requiring a USCG credential, this requires basic firefighting and life saving training, as well as a full FBI background check. Therefore, the crew you saw on the inaugural voyage of POA most likely had about 2 weeks time onboard a ship, any ship. While they received training at US maritime training schools, the equipment varies between ships, and the schools do not have all of the various models of equipment, so there needs to be some time to adjust to the particular ships' equipment and layout. Also, there is no pool of dishwashers with a mariner's credential waiting for a job in the US. This is why the ships out there had so much understaffing. It costs NCL about $8-10k just to get a new crewmember to the gangway for the first time, and then, since it is a US flag ship, in a US port, and a US citizen, they can quit and walk off the ship at any time.

 

To give you an example of the difference between the international crew and the US crew in safety training, the international crew are assigned an emergency duty on the fire teams. On the POA, all of the fire teams are volunteers, since they are restricted to ship while in port 3 days a week (as are the international crew, but they don't have any labor laws against holding them on the ship). We had a running fight between the Aloha's senior officers and the corporate safety director, who wanted deck and engine crew assigned to the fire teams, as is done on the international fleet. We resisted this for two reasons, it would cost the company many thousands of dollars annually, because the unions have a restriction to ship clause that would pay the deck and engine ratings for 24 hours of overtime if kept onboard. The more important reason for us on the ship, was that we had set up fast response teams of trained, skilled crew who would know where to isolate systems to assist the fire teams, and these required engine ratings, and the deck ratings were better used preparing the boats for launch. This was finally resolved when the corporate safety manager visited the ship and witnessed one of our crew fire and boat drills. He came away so impressed with the attitude, professionalism, and dedication of the volunteer fire teams, who really wanted to learn firefighting (not just go through the motions like the international crew), that he told us to keep doing it our way, it was the best performance by a crew that he had seen.

 

While what you say is true, that if people were focused on safety rather than having a good time, the cruise lines would respond, but the cruise lines know their market very well, and know that safety is far, far, from the forefront of most passengers' minds. Witness the attitudes towards the muster drill.

 

Your fight for transparency in safety matters is a noble one, but I fear it is just as doomed as mine to require US flag cruise ships that home port in the US.

 

Thanks again for your insight. I appreciate you sharing your experience from the Pride of Aloha. I would expect that POA did get better but that is just speculation.

 

US Flagged cruise ships would be great but US laws dictating things such as construction materials, US taxes, and US labor laws is not going to make that cost effective. The deal with NCL to operate the Hawaiian market even took new public law to make the situation possible - if still difficult as you note.

 

Requiring US Flagged ships to embark and disembark passengers in the US would just create new turnaround ports in places like Freeport and Barbados - at least under our current tax and labor structure. Also, retaliations against US Flagged ships visiting foreign ports would be likely.

.

[dwgreenlee]

Riveting though all this stuff is, guys, what I really want to find out from this thread is Insignia's Post Fire Location and Movement, like the title says, because I'm hoping to hop aboard in Singapore :o.

 

Insignia has not moved - she is still in San Juan. When asked, Oceania responds everything is on time but no details are provided. She will have to leave PR on our about 20 Feb to make Singapore. Her movements will be reported here as soon as there is anything to report.

[Caroldoll]

I feel that he is very insightful, and I want to thank him personally for his diligence.

[Jancruz]

Insignia has not moved - she is still in San Juan. When asked, Oceania responds everything is on time but no details are provided. She will have to leave PR on our about 20 Feb to make Singapore. Her movements will be reported here as soon as there is anything to report.

 

Perhaps you do not ask the correct people at Oceania..and what kind of details do you want??

Jancruz1

[chengkp75]

Perhaps you do not ask the correct people at Oceania..and what kind of details do you want??

Jancruz1

 

I don't believe anyone at Oceania, or any cruise line for that matter, would give out information to the general public like: "the engine repair is complete, and the wiring repairs are 60% complete, but on schedule, painting is at the 75% mark as per plan, etc., etc." Just saying that the work is on schedule is going to be the best you'll get.

[chengkp75]

Thanks again for your insight. I appreciate you sharing your experience from the Pride of Aloha. I would expect that POA did get better but that is just speculation.

 

US Flagged cruise ships would be great but US laws dictating things such as construction materials, US taxes, and US labor laws is not going to make that cost effective. The deal with NCL to operate the Hawaiian market even took new public law to make the situation possible - if still difficult as you note.

 

Requiring US Flagged ships to embark and disembark passengers in the US would just create new turnaround ports in places like Freeport and Barbados - at least under our current tax and labor structure. Also, retaliations against US Flagged ships visiting foreign ports would be likely.

.

 

I still have friends at NCL, and I can tell you that the crew on the POA is well trained and proficient in safety issues.

 

As I said, my quest for US flag cruise ships is quixotic, but when cruisers continue to clamor for the protections of US law, and investigation of marine incidents by the USCG and NTSB, they fail to realize the only way to get those things is to have US flag ships.

 

As for retaliations against US ships in foreign ports, I don't follow that. The only people losing money if the ships were to change from flags of convenience to US flag would be the flag of convenience countries: Panama, Bahamas, Liberia, etc. While the Bahamas is a major destination, the tourist dollars would still be coming in, just losing the registry fees, and for Panama and Liberia at least, the cruise ships are a minor part of their merchant fleets, and I'm sure the tourist dollars from cruise ships outweighs the registry fees by several orders of magnitude.

[SellaVee]

At this time everything is on schedule and you will be able to board in Singapore..

Jancruz1

 

Thank you. That's what I was hoping to hear.

Edited January 26, 2015 by SellaVee

[SellaVee]

I don't believe anyone at Oceania, or any cruise line for that matter, would give out information to the general public like: "the engine repair is complete, and the wiring repairs are 60% complete, but on schedule, painting is at the 75% mark as per plan, etc., etc." Just saying that the work is on schedule is going to be the best you'll get.

 

Thank you for this. Of course that's the sort of information I'm sure many of us would like to hear - preferably with photographs :)!

 

We get used to so many people blogging nowadays, including Oceania, that it's frustrating to hear little from the cruise line.

 

May I say I thought your post #66 was one of the most balanced and interesting things I've read on this thread.

[Balloon Man]

Having arrived at this conversation somewhat late, and planning to cruise on Insignia toward the end of this year, how long has she been in "dry dock"? Can anybody tell me what the real problem was?

[orchestrapal]

Having arrived at this conversation somewhat late, and planning to cruise on Insignia toward the end of this year, how long has she been in "dry dock"? Can anybody tell me what the real problem was?

 

Try using the search button top right of the page and you will find all the" old"

Discussions on this topic.

[SellaVee]

Having arrived at this conversation somewhat late, and planning to cruise on Insignia toward the end of this year, how long has she been in "dry dock"? Can anybody tell me what the real problem was?

 

Fire in the engine room leading to 3 fatalities back in December. Not as well reported in the UK as recent Boudicca fire. Lots of discussion on forum.

[chengkp75]

Thank you for this. Of course that's the sort of information I'm sure many of us would like to hear - preferably with photographs :)!

 

We get used to so many people blogging nowadays, including Oceania, that it's frustrating to hear little from the cruise line.

 

May I say I thought your post #66 was one of the most balanced and interesting things I've read on this thread.

 

I try not to bash any cruise line, until something like the Carnival Splendor report comes out that really shows fault at a corporate/systemic level in training and maintenance, and even then I look at every incident individually, so I feel that Carnival was somewhat less at fault for the Triumph fire than the Splendor fire, even though the results were nearly the same.

 

The Carnival Splendor report, with the USCG as lead investigators, took more than two years to come out, the Triumph only a year or so, and the Grandeur less than a year. The only time you'll see what happened, with photos, will be in the final report from the Marshall Islands Maritime Authority, and that could be quick, or a couple of years. Remember, that with the Triumph fire, there was all kinds of speculation driven by plaintiffs documentation supposedly showing the ship was not being maintained to SOLAS standards, but the Bahamas Maritime Authority report did not bring any of that up, because, even if true (and I'm not saying it is), it was not causative to the fire or the resultant loss of power.

 

I try to bring balance and perspective to marine incidents like this. The only time I've heaped scorn on anyone is to Mr. Schettino (I refuse to call him Captain), for his actions on the Concordia, because those have already been documented, and show a complete lack of professionalism. But even then, I have to bite my tongue a lot.

 

The final report on the Grandeur of the Seas states that no absolute causative reason was found for the fire, but I also find no real issues with the report or its recommendations, but RCCL came under fire for some items that were missed during all the inspections done to the ship over the years, like having aluminum doors that will warp under high heat.

 

Even when people bring up the Star Princess fire, which loads of people blame on a cigarette, I will point out that the report actually says that given no other determinable cause, a cigarette is the most likely cause. Large difference.

[dwgreenlee]

I still have friends at NCL, and I can tell you that the crew on the POA is well trained and proficient in safety issues.

 

As I said, my quest for US flag cruise ships is quixotic, but when cruisers continue to clamor for the protections of US law, and investigation of marine incidents by the USCG and NTSB, they fail to realize the only way to get those things is to have US flag ships.

 

As for retaliations against US ships in foreign ports, I don't follow that. The only people losing money if the ships were to change from flags of convenience to US flag would be the flag of convenience countries: Panama, Bahamas, Liberia, etc. While the Bahamas is a major destination, the tourist dollars would still be coming in, just losing the registry fees, and for Panama and Liberia at least, the cruise ships are a minor part of their merchant fleets, and I'm sure the tourist dollars from cruise ships outweighs the registry fees by several orders of magnitude.

I would have expected POA to get her act in order. On other NCL ships, I am very impressed with the safety management system - many drills and very open about safety - more information than I would expect any cruise line to provide to the self-loading cargo.

 

POA had a troubled construction history as well as all the staffing issues you note and suffers from the continual competition of the Hawaii tourist industry for staff. I am glad to hear she is doing well - I do have a US flag that she flew.

 

You are very correct that US Citizens do not understand that cruise ships - POA as an exception - are not US owned/flagged and cruise lines are incorporated or chartered in foreign countries. Once you leave US waters any jurisdiction the US authorities may have is very limited. It is frustrating to me that people do not understand this. A frequent complaint is that foreign shore excursions do not comply with the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA) - go figure.

 

Retaliation is a funny thing - more often based upon politics or emotions rather than common or economic sense. Retaliating against any cruise ship would be economically foolish but still could happen - taxing onboard purchases while in port (or waters) has become more common. Retaliation against other types of US merchant/fishing/pleasure vessels and sovereign ships - USS, USNS, etc. - would be more likely and problematic.

 

What would be a win-win situation is if the US would offer some tax, labor and/or construction concessions - like they did for NCL America - so that cruise lines would seek the US Flag of their own accord. I note that US Flagged airlines fly all over the world.

 

In your first post here you questioned Carnival's claim that they had implemented the investigation recommendation. I thought you would enjoy the attached picture. I took it on 15 Jan 2015 and it clearly shows the installation of the emergency generators they promised. I took the picture from the Royal Princess so I cannot validate that it works or they have the capability to connect it to anything - but it is there.

[chengkp75]

I would have expected POA to get her act in order. On other NCL ships, I am very impressed with the safety management system - many drills and very open about safety - more information than I would expect any cruise line to provide to the self-loading cargo.

 

POA had a troubled construction history as well as all the staffing issues you note and suffers from the continual competition of the Hawaii tourist industry for staff. I am glad to hear she is doing well - I do have a US flag that she flew. I was on my way to the airport to fly to Germany and join the POA when NCL called to say the ship had sank at the dock. We were quickly shunted to the Norwegian Sky for a month to observe their operation before the ship left for shipyard in San Francisco where we reflagged to the Pride of Aloha.

 

You are very correct that US Citizens do not understand that cruise ships - POA as an exception - are not US owned/flagged and cruise lines are incorporated or chartered in foreign countries. Once you leave US waters any jurisdiction the US authorities may have is very limited. It is frustrating to me that people do not understand this. A frequent complaint is that foreign shore excursions do not comply with the American's with Disabilities Act (ADA) - go figure.Not only do shore excursions not meet the ADA, but in the court case against NCL regarding the ADA, the Supreme Court left open the decision whether the ships' construction had to meet all the aspects of the ADA, which is why some areas of some ships are still not fully accessible, and we had to make quite a few changes on the Aloha to meet the ADA, while sailing as a US flag ship.

 

Retaliation is a funny thing - more often based upon politics or emotions rather than common or economic sense. Retaliating against any cruise ship would be economically foolish but still could happen - taxing onboard purchases while in port (or waters) has become more common. Retaliation against other types of US merchant/fishing/pleasure vessels and sovereign ships - USS, USNS, etc. - would be more likely and problematic.

 

What would be a win-win situation is if the US would offer some tax, labor and/or construction concessions - like they did for NCL America - so that cruise lines would seek the US Flag of their own accord. I note that US Flagged airlines fly all over the world.Not sure what tax or labor concessions they gave NCL (other than the NRAC foreign crew, which is still limited to the same percentage of crew that limits green card holders on ships, and those foreigners get paid US wages and are taxed in the US), but the real reason they gave NCL the construction concession was that the POA hull was sitting incomplete in a US shipyard after the owner had gone bankrupt, and the US government was on the hook for the mortgage guarantee.

 

In your first post here you questioned Carnival's claim that they had implemented the investigation recommendation. I thought you would enjoy the attached picture. I took it on 15 Jan 2015 and it clearly shows the installation of the emergency generators they promised. I took the picture from the Royal Princess so I cannot validate that it works or they have the capability to connect it to anything - but it is there.

 

Funny you should mention those generators. At the time, I saw quite a lot of photos from folks on the Carnival forum, but none of the units were connected. I started a thread to see if anyone could get photographic evidence of them actually being connected. It has taken some time, but I think they are all finally connected, several people sending in good photos of well installed marine applications. People still have misconceptions about these generators, and emergency generators in general. Even these larger generators (1.8MW) can only supply about half of the "hotel" load, and none of the A/C load. I keep hearing about how they can provide propulsion backup if needed. Rubbish.

[dwgreenlee]

Funny you should mention those generators. At the time, I saw quite a lot of photos from folks on the Carnival forum, but none of the units were connected. I started a thread to see if anyone could get photographic evidence of them actually being connected. It has taken some time, but I think they are all finally connected, several people sending in good photos of well installed marine applications. People still have misconceptions about these generators, and emergency generators in general. Even these larger generators (1.8MW) can only supply about half of the "hotel" load, and none of the A/C load. I keep hearing about how they can provide propulsion backup if needed. Rubbish.

 

I used to term this sort of stuff "Public Affairs Engineering Changes" - when politics determined that you provide a quick fix to a complicated long-term high-cost problem. Never the less, management wanted to announce that the "fix" was being rapidly deployed.

 

This one worries me. Carnival has introduced fuel and plenty sources of ignition in a new location where fire fighting plans and systems may not be fully mature. The "problem" this generator fixes is keeping some of the hotel systems - namely the toilets - working while the ship is drifting w/o propulsion. Noting that the toilets not flushing is a minor thing in the grand scheme of things while the ship drifting w/o power and a new potential source of fire are very big things.

 

I do not really ride Carnival so I had not seen this. The Royal Princess from where I took the picture purports to meet the new standards for "safe return to port."

[chengkp75]

I used to term this sort of stuff "Public Affairs Engineering Changes" - when politics determined that you provide a quick fix to a complicated long-term high-cost problem. Never the less, management wanted to announce that the "fix" was being rapidly deployed.

 

This one worries me. Carnival has introduced fuel and plenty sources of ignition in a new location where fire fighting plans and systems may not be fully mature. The "problem" this generator fixes is keeping some of the hotel systems - namely the toilets - working while the ship is drifting w/o propulsion. Noting that the toilets not flushing is a minor thing in the grand scheme of things while the ship drifting w/o power and a new potential source of fire are very big things.

 

I do not really ride Carnival so I had not seen this. The Royal Princess from where I took the picture purports to meet the new standards for "safe return to port."

 

Actually, the "Cat in a box" as we call them, are pretty safe, with intrinsic CO2 fire suppression system installed in the box. It is supposed to be a temporary fix until the ship has a routine shipyard period where they will install a permanent installation. I'm not sure how or where they intend to make a permanent installation, and I've seen that some Carnival ships have had shipyards after these generators were installed, and I don't believe that the permanent generator has been installed, as this is a pretty major engineering project.

 

All cruise ships built since 2010 must meet the "Safe Return" standards with 100% separation between halves of the power generation and propulsion systems, so that loss of one half will not completely black out the ship, or result in total loss of propulsion. Many older ships, like the Sky and Sun, have "nearly" total separation, much better than the Carnival Destiny class and it's derivatives which ran cables from the forward engine room through the aft engine room.

[dwgreenlee]

Not sure what tax or labor concessions they gave NCL (other than the NRAC foreign crew, which is still limited to the same percentage of crew that limits green card holders on ships, and those foreigners get paid US wages and are taxed in the US), but the real reason they gave NCL the construction concession was that the POA hull was sitting incomplete in a US shipyard after the owner had gone bankrupt, and the US government was on the hook for the mortgage guarantee.

 

Bad wording on my part. I was trying to list what sort of concessions would be needed to motivate a cruise line to fly the US Flag - not to imply that NCL got all of those.

[Balloon Man]

When a major disruption of this type occurs to a cruise ship what happens to the crew?

[chengkp75]

When a major disruption of this type occurs to a cruise ship what happens to the crew?

 

It depends on how long the period out of service is. Most of the crew is probably remaining onboard, to perform many tasks during the repair period, from serving meals and cleaning cabins for contractors onboard (manufacturers' reps for the engines, etc) to performing fire watch duties in areas of the ship where welding is being done, to cleaning up after contractors in areas under repair. Some crew will be sent home on vacation, if their contracts were nearly up, and some will be transferred to other ships.

[dwgreenlee]

When a major disruption of this type occurs to a cruise ship what happens to the crew?

 

Many of the crew (hotel staff) left the ship with the passengers - many flew back to Miami with the passengers. Some crew - guessing mostly engineering and navigation personnel - remained onboard for the tow to San Juan. The current staffing while under repair in San Juan is unknown.

Edited January 29, 2015 by dwgreenlee

[dwgreenlee]

Actually, the "Cat in a box" as we call them, are pretty safe, with intrinsic CO2 fire suppression system installed in the box. It is supposed to be a temporary fix until the ship has a routine shipyard period where they will install a permanent installation. I'm not sure how or where they intend to make a permanent installation, and I've seen that some Carnival ships have had shipyards after these generators were installed, and I don't believe that the permanent generator has been installed, as this is a pretty major engineering project.

 

All cruise ships built since 2010 must meet the "Safe Return" standards with 100% separation between halves of the power generation and propulsion systems, so that loss of one half will not completely black out the ship, or result in total loss of propulsion. Many older ships, like the Sky and Sun, have "nearly" total separation, much better than the Carnival Destiny class and it's derivatives which ran cables from the forward engine room through the aft engine room.

 

What are your comments on my other point - that in the grand scheme of things the generator is of little value?

 

Carnival had two incidents sufficiently close together to cause a PR disaster. The real fix to provide separation of the engine rooms - something that may be difficult, expensive and impossible to 100% achieve given the forward and aft engine room configurations. The touted emergency generators may keep some toilets flushing and maybe provide some hot food but being dead in the water has real risks if weather is closing in. The addition of the generator seems to be being touted by Carnival as the "fix" while there is still a risk that a single event may leave you dead in the water.

 

Please note, I am not criticizing Carnival - this seems to be an industry standard problem with electric propulsion - for ships built before the safe return to port standard. I also note that Carnival's fire teams were sufficiently robust to mitigate the event without loss of life. Still, it seems this "fix" is really not very valuable.

[dwgreenlee]

When a major disruption of this type occurs to a cruise ship what happens to the crew?

 

I should have added that there is another thread entitled "Insignia Fire" that provides some first hand accounts of the fire and the evacuation of passengers. It is now closed and there are no crew posts but still provides some insight into the evacuation of the crew.

Edited January 29, 2015 by dwgreenlee