Can I avoid the Jones Act on my Alaska Cruise so my daughter can be in a wedding.

[FLANole]

I booked a Princess Cruise from Whitter to Vancouver this July. Wife and 3 adult kids. We chose dates that worked for everyone (hard to do). My 23 yr old daughter was asked to be a bridesmaid. There is a flight from Ketichikan to Atlanta that gets her there on time and she only misses the final sea day.

 

I asked Princess for and exception and was turned down. I researched and found it is due to the Jones act.

 

I dont want to cancel the trip.

 

My questions:

1. Is it an option to pay the fine (says $300 per person). Has Princess ever given an exception?

2. Is my risk limited to the $300 fine? Or is Princess on the hook for a larger fine?

3. Should we declare an emergency on the day of her flight and get approval/give notice to the purser?

4. Should we drop this and make other plans?

Edited January 22, 2015 by FLANole

[sail7seas]

Technically it is the PVSA (Passenger Vessel Services Act) and seeing you have not only asked Princess and been refused but have now posted this to a public internet forum, I wouldn't think trying to lie or declare a false emergency would be a good plan.

 

They KNOW what you want to do and if they knowingly permit a guest to violate PVSA, cruise line can be held to penalty. It is one thing for a person to have a true medical emergency and be evacuated in violation of PVSA, it is quite another when the cruise line permits you to board knowing what you plan.

 

[Karysa]

I booked a Princess Cruise from Whitter to Vancouver this July. Wife and 3 adult kids. We chose dates that worked for everyone (hard to do). My 23 yr old daughter was asked to be a bridesmaid. There is a flight from Ketichikan to Atlanta that gets her there on time and she only misses the final sea day.

 

I asked Princess for and exception and was turned down. I researched and found it is due to the Jones act.

 

I dont want to cancel the trip.

 

My questions:

1. Is it an option to pay the fine (says $300 per person). Has Princess ever given an exception?

2. Is my risk limited to the $300 fine? Or is Princess on the hook for a larger fine?

3. Should we declare an emergency on the day of her flight and get approval/give notice to the purser?

4. Should we drop this and make other plans?

 

Just an idea but could you fly her to Vancouver,Canada and then to Atlanta. Not sure if that's legal but its all that I could come up with.

 

Good Luck:)

[Aquahound]

My questions:

1. Is it an option to pay the fine (says $300 per person). Has Princess ever given an exception?

2. Is my risk limited to the $300 fine? Or is Princess on the hook for a larger fine?

3. Should we declare an emergency on the day of her flight and get approval/give notice to the purser?

4. Should we drop this and make other plans?

 

The fine is awarded to the cruise line by CBP, who then forwards it on to you.

 

Declaring an emergency does no good. If you disembark in another U.S. port, regardless of the reason, the cruise line is still fined. It's a product of running a foreign flagged ship.

[BlueRiband]

Consider it a teachable moment for your daughter because she has a choice to make - the cruise or the wedding. She has to decide how close she is to the bride and whether the bridesmaid request trumps her previous commitment to sail with the family. (I'm presuming the cruise was booked first and this wedding was announced second.) Neither choice is wrong but she is trying to do both and it cannot legally work.

[Karysa]

Consider it a teachable moment for your daughter because she has a choice to make - the cruise or the wedding. She has to decide how close she is to the bride and whether the bridesmaid request trumps her previous commitment to sail with the family. (I'm presuming the cruise was booked first and this wedding was announced second.) Neither choice is wrong but she is trying to do both and it cannot legally work.

 

The ship is ending in Vancouver. If she had a ticket to fly to Vancouver and showed the ship's personnel you don't think that this would be good enough. Again, I don't know the legalities but I think outside the box and thought that I would add my suggestions in case the OP hadn't thought of them.

[Aquahound]

The ship is ending in Vancouver. If she had a ticket to fly to Vancouver and showed the ship's personnel you don't think that this would be good enough. Again, I don't know the legalities but I think outside the box and thought that I would add my suggestions in case the OP hadn't thought of them.

 

No, it definitely wouldn't work. The fact would still remain she embarked and disembarked a foreign flag ship in different U.S. ports, and that's a violation of U.S. federal law, not cruise line policy. Where she decides to fly after that is irrelevant.

[Karysa]

No, it definitely wouldn't work. The fact would still remain she embarked and disembarked a foreign flag ship in different U.S. ports, and that's a violation of U.S. federal law, not cruise line policy. Where she decides to fly after that is irrelevant.

 

Gotcha. Darn.:mad:

 

Tough decisions to make.

[Twickenham]

The ship is ending in Vancouver. If she had a ticket to fly to Vancouver and showed the ship's personnel you don't think that this would be good enough. Again, I don't know the legalities but I think outside the box and thought that I would add my suggestions in case the OP hadn't thought of them.

 

No, because her onward travel is totally irrelevant in the context of the PVSA. The law - and the penalty - is applied to the ship, which cannot legally transport people between two different US ports without a stop in a distant foreign port. It is not applied to the passengers as individuals.

[Mary Ellen]

The ship is ending in Vancouver.

Yes, the cruise is ending in Vancouver. It is sailing between a US port and a nearby foreign port. However, what the OP's daughter wants to do is cruise between two different US ports. This is a direct violation of the PVSC. No getting around that on this itinerary. The ship would have to stop at a distant foreign port. My guess that would be somewhere in Asia as the closest qualifying port.

 

It doesn't matter to where the daughter is flying. The (non-US flagged) cruise line would still be transporting her between two US ports.

[iheartbda]

There is no way to get around what the OP wants to do. As someone else posted, the daughter needs to make a choice between the cruise and being a bridesmaid.

[paul929207]

Princess will not grant you an exception to the law. If they are seen to be deliberately allowing people to break the law, they can lose the right to call upon US ports.

 

Make other plans

[Karysa]

If its only $300 to get her cake ;) and eat it to and the company is not penalized in any way shape or form because they will collect the fee from your DD then is this really a big deal? Just fly her home and get the bill from the cruise line and pay it.

 

Am I missing something? If so then this is a learning process for me so I will kindly remind you to be nice!:D

 

PS I doubt anyone from the cruise line wrote this down if OP just asked the telephone reps the question.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Karysa

[sail7seas]

If its only $300 to get her cake ;) and eat it to and the company is not penalized in any way shape or form because they will collect the fee from your DD then is this really a big deal? Just fly her home and get the bill from the cruise line and pay it.

 

Am I missing something? If so then this is a learning process for me so I will kindly remind you to be nice!:D

 

PS I doubt anyone from the cruise line wrote this down if OP just asked the telephone reps the question.

 

 

 

Here is the post which preceded yours.

 

The cruise line can be denied the right to call on U.S. ports.

 

Even if someone dies while on cruise for which PVSA applies, special application for exception must be made to avoid the $300 fine. It is not automatically granted.

 

 

 

Princess will not grant you an exception to the law. If they are seen to be deliberately allowing people to break the law, they can lose the right to call upon US ports.

 

Make other plans

 

Cruise line will not purposely allow any guest to break the law. It is now in their reservation record they applied for exception and their request was denied as it violates law.

[SuiteTraveler]

It is a big deal. Not only would the daughter be fined $300, but every member of her family cruising with her may also be fined as well, especially if they board the ship knowing the daughter plans to violate the Jones Act. On top of that, if a ship has passengers who violate the Jones Act, then points are taken off the Captain's license - kind of like getting repeated speeding tickets. If the Captain gets too many violations, he can lose his license which would be a humiliating way to end his career. So, this WOULD harm the Captain of the ship. Even if there were a true emergency and the family got off the ship to go to a hospital in a US port for a REAL emergency, then the members of the family would each be fined $300. Even if someone dies on a cruise ship and their body is removed before the foreign port in violation of the Jones Act, that person's estate would be fined $300.

 

Finally, if a cruise line knowingly assists a passenger in breaking the regulations, the ships from that company can be banned from calling at all US Ports by the Coast Guard. The Coast Guard has not had a case yet where they decided to ban a cruise company, but it could happen. If that were to happen to a cruise line, I think most everyone here realizes that the company might go bankrupt.

[Aquahound]

If its only $300 to get her cake ;) and eat it to and the company is not penalized in any way shape or form because they will collect the fee from your DD then is this really a big deal? Just fly her home and get the bill from the cruise line and pay it.

 

Am I missing something? If so then this is a learning process for me so I will kindly remind you to be nice!:D

 

PS I doubt anyone from the cruise line wrote this down if OP just asked the telephone reps the question.

 

It is the cruise line that takes the hit when passengers violate the PVSA. When a passenger has to pay the $300 fee, it's because the line is recovering their loss. However, on record, the ship still acted as a ferry service between U.S. ports, which is illegal. Plus, the Captain gets a Jones Act (yes, I said that right..not PVSA) violation on his record. Intentionally violating this could get the passenger barred from ever sailing Princess or any other Carnival Corp line again.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Aquahound

[sail7seas]

It is the cruise line that takes the hit when passengers violate the PVSA. When a passenger has to pay the $300 fee, it's because the line is recovering their loss. However, on record, the ship still acted as a ferry service between U.S. ports, which is illegal. Plus, the Captain gets a Jones Act (yes, I said that right..not PVSA) violation on his record. Intentionally violating this could get the passenger barred from ever sailing Princess or any other Carnival Corp line again.

 

 

I am clearly confused as I thought

Jones Act applies to cargo

PVSA applies to passengers?

That is not the case?

 

 

[Karysa]

Here is the post which preceded yours.

 

The cruise line can be denied the right to call on U.S. ports.

 

Even if someone dies while on cruise for which PVSA applies, special application for exception must be made to avoid the $300 fine. It is not automatically granted.

 

 

 

 

 

Cruise line will not purposely allow any guest to break the law. It is now in their reservation record they applied for exception and their request was denied as it violates law.

 

Do we know for certain that it is in their record? For all we know the OP called and asked a hypothetical question such as... If we take ...cruise and DD leaves in Ketchikan what would the procedure be.

 

The cruise line getting in trouble is the kink here IMO.

[Karysa]

It is the cruise line that takes the hit when passengers violate the PVSA. When a passenger has to pay the $300 fee, it's because the line is recovering their loss. However, on record, the ship still acted as a ferry service between U.S. ports, which is illegal. Plus, the Captain gets a Jones Act (yes, I said that right..not PVSA) violation on his record. Intentionally violating this could get the passenger barred from ever sailing Princess or any other Carnival Corp line again.

 

Ok it's a no go OP. You need a plan B.

 

Thank you Aquahound:)

[FLANole]

Wow, very happy with all off the great responses. I think the answer is Pretty Clear. The cruise or the wedding.

 

Interesting learning that these restrictions and laws were originally passed in the late 1800s and still stand. Not sure if for the same reasons.

 

Rule #1 Don't mess with the police

[thinfool]

I havent read all of the responses, but I believe you could avoid the PVSA problem if you turn your trip around. Vancouver to Whittier. You would have to make arrangements with Princess and decide which port to use for your daughters departure.

 

Most of the AK cruise ports have service by Alaska Airlines. I think even Skagway uses nearby Haines for air service.

[sail7seas]

Wow, very happy with all off the great responses. I think the answer is Pretty Clear. The cruise or the wedding.

 

Interesting learning that these restrictions and laws were originally passed in the late 1800s and still stand. Not sure if for the same reasons.

 

Rule #1 Don't mess with the police

 

PVSA also applies to non-U.S. airlines.

 

[Capt_BJ]

Points on his license? Ship banned from US ports?

 

You have some references for this?

 

For one thing the Master's license is in all probability NOT from the US . . . .

 

yes USCG would track some of this but it is not like there are going to be gun boats chasing down the ship . . . . it would be notes in a database with little more significance that a failed lifeboat drill.

 

"Try harder next time"

 

It takes a LONG history of misbehavior b4 any action is taken by the US Government .... not USCG btw, they are just an enforcement tool.

 

***

cruise ship OASIS of the SEAS, this is the US Coast Guard. STOP at the sea buoy and do not enter port.

 

One of your passengers got off early.

 

We are sending out a boat to get the MASTER because he has too many points on his license . . . .

 

**************

but I agree, the right answer is dd must make a choice, one or the other as I would NOT tell someone to consciously violate the law

 

BUT

 

what if no one ever asked the question and dd just left and flew to the wedding? Someone going to jail? What if OP never HEARD OF Cruise Critic?

 

"Don't ask questions you don't really want to know the answers to."

 

"Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than permission"

 

**********

OP: GO 'NOLES (2 kids, one a NOLE and one grad of BAMA ..... a football house here!)

Edited January 22, 2015 by Capt_BJ

[smeyer418]

this is called Coastwise Cabotage trading.

Its my understanding that the Jones Act covers cargo and is also worker's comp for Sailors.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merchant_Marine_Act_of_1920

 

PVSA covers passenger ships.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

 

The laws are similar in that limit who or what can be transported between two US ports.

 

I am unaware that they keep track of how many times a captain violates the rule. If so every NCL Captain that sailed from Kaributi from Hawaii surely would have lost their license as they missed it more often than not.

 

Besides the penalty of $300 per passenger paid by the cruise line and recovered by the passenger, the cruise line and ship could be barred from any US port for a period of time but that penalty has never been imposed as far as I can tell...although it might have been threatened. A penalty on someone who didn't violate the law but assisted is NOT authorized by the statute.

The penalty is imposed but may be mitigated when it was an "emergency". It was mitigated when the Carnival ship had to return to different port because of a loss of all power or when NCL's Dawn returned to Norfolk after being struck by a rogue wave(not a rouge one). Individual cases of medical emergencies are decided on a case by case basis. But a wedding probably won't qualify.

[smeyer418]

.....

but I agree, the right answer is dd must make a choice, one or the other as I would NOT tell someone to consciously violate the law

 

BUT

 

what if no one ever asked the question and dd just left and flew to the wedding? Someone going to jail? What if OP never HEARD OF Cruise Critic?

 

"Don't ask questions you don't really want to know the answers to."

 

"Sometimes it is better to ask forgiveness than permission"

 

**********

OP: GO 'NOLES (2 kids, one a NOLE and one grad of BAMA ..... a football house here!)

I don't think its a criminal statute at all, although lying to the CG or the Customs people IS and can get you a year in jail if they want to get you! I could see it now what are you in jail for! I got off in San Franciso on a cruise ship and didn't back on!

 

one of the strange things in the law under the PSVA is that it doesn't apply to crew that regular operate the ship so they can get on and off when and where they like but not ship line employees who work in the home office..it does apply to them.