Nieuw Amsterdam Vibration Problems?

[trout62]

Darn it Joanie! We will board when you and Roger disembark. We will board on May 14, 2016.

 

Ken & Melodie, I will for sure follow your advise! We will stick with 7132 because of the view and we have it booked. Midship would be fine for us if it weren't Alaska. Vibration or not, we have got to sail on this ship. Anybody want to join us?

 

Diane

 

Oh, snap! I missed that you were going to be in 7132! Great cabin (see my post above)! Perfect for Alaska. And NA is lovely, as all have said.

 

Going to leave this sailing to you, though. We will be doing AK on Noordam June 12, 2016 in 7145 (starboard corner aft).

 

Have fun,

Trout

[IRL_Joanie]

Darn it Joanie! We will board when you and Roger disembark. We will board on May 14, 2016.

 

Ken & Melodie, I will for sure follow your advise! We will stick with 7132 because of the view and we have it booked. Midship would be fine for us if it weren't Alaska. Vibration or not, we have got to sail on this ship. Anybody want to join us?

 

Diane

 

Oh, snap! I missed that you were going to be in 7132! Great cabin (see my post above)! Perfect for Alaska. And NA is lovely, as all have said.

 

Going to leave this sailing to you, though. We will be doing AK on Noordam June 12, 2016 in 7145 (starboard corner aft).

 

Have fun,

Trout

Ah Ha!! All US Aft'rs (or should it be "Afters"?) know the best staterooms do we not?:D

 

All in all, it looks like we have the 1st few sailings of Nieuw Amsredams Alaska season for 2016 booked:)

 

Diane, we'd change booking dates but for the fact that our dear friend/PCC and her family will be cruising with us:)

 

Hey, if the above does not make sense, blame it on lack of enough coffee:D

 

Joanie

[menea]

legalslave,

 

If vibration is going to cause you problems I hate to say you will probably be disappointed. I am sitting in 7132 on the Nieuw Amsterdam right now doing the transatlantic to Barcelona and I have to tell you that this ship vibrates significantly!! It is a definite generator issue because it vibrated pretty much the same way when we were sitting in port getting ready to leave.

 

This vibration has not caused us any issues its kind of like being on one of those coin operated beds except you don't have to keep feeding it coins.

 

Even with that this is a great room and we are really enjoying the trip. They really spiffed up the ship in drydock -- they have new TV's - the one in the suite is now on the wall and its a 46" flat panel -- they did remove the DVD players and now have movies available on the TV (smart tv) only problem right now is the TV has 4 news channels and two sports channels and about 20 movies to chose from.

 

There is new carpet everywhere and the LIDO is a real mess the carpet is creating hundreds of fuzz balls when you walk across it - somebody is not happy about that carpet choice.

 

Just so you know it just doesn't vibrate in the aft section if vibrates everywhere.

 

menea

[Hlitner]

We once had lunch with a famous (knighted by the Queen) marine architect and somebody made the mistake of asking him about vibration on ships. We heard more then we wanted to know. But to make a long story shorter, apparently much of the vibration felt in the aft portion of ships is caused by "cavitation." Simply the combination of water/air impacting the hull (near the props) can cause vibration at certain speeds and conditions. So one could be on a ship cruising at 16 knots and fell nothing. But increase the speed to 17 knots and the aft might shake like a vibrating bed. Our solution is quite simple. DW and I generally avoid cabins in the rear third of a ship :).

 

On the other hand, some folks love vibrating beds.

 

Hank

[Typhoon1]

Any ship will experience some engine vibration in the aft section.

[Orsino]

Our room was midship (slightly forward of the mid-ship elevators), and we felt vibration in there. So it isn't just aft that is vibrating.

Also, Tamarind is mid-ship.

[Bemis]

Just for one additional data point; we are on deck 7, near the mid-ship elevators, and not enough vibration to cause ripples in a coffee cup. You can tell you are on a ship and not a hotel, but no more. I am sure there are places with resonances that will feel it more, but I it is certainly not significant or even noticeable most places I have been on the ship.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Bemis

[Dave in NJ]

Hlitner (post #29) gives an accurate analysis, propeller cavitation; anytime you apply that amount of power to move that amount of water, it's not going to be vibration-free despite the best engineering. And of course the vibration can travel and be manifested at other parts of the ship; those of traveled on the prior Noordam and Nieuw Amsterdam may well recall that at some speeds the Crows Nest shook like a leaf yet the pool area at the stern was quite calm. And of course bow and stern thrusters can really vibrate though that's normally just encountered in maneuvering in and out of port.

 

As a solo traveler and always trying to beat the 200% supplement (haven't paid it yet, though it's getting harder and harder to find) I'm often on the lowest deck near the stern, can't say I ever found it to be troublesome.

[trout62]

Hlitner (post #29) gives an accurate analysis, propeller cavitation; anytime you apply that amount of power to move that amount of water, it's not going to be vibration-free despite the best engineering. And of course the vibration can travel and be manifested at other parts of the ship; those of traveled on the prior Noordam and Nieuw Amsterdam may well recall that at some speeds the Crows Nest shook like a leaf yet the pool area at the stern was quite calm. And of course bow and stern thrusters can really vibrate though that's normally just encountered in maneuvering in and out of port.

 

As a solo traveler and always trying to beat the 200% supplement (haven't paid it yet, though it's getting harder and harder to find) I'm often on the lowest deck near the stern, can't say I ever found it to be troublesome.

 

Don't think it is cavitation in this case. The vibration is evident in port (see post 12 and 28). It seems to be in the generators.

 

BTW, most may not know, but Azipods pull through the water as opposed to push. This helps reduce cavitation. ( http://www.beyondships2.com/faq-azipods.html )

 

Trout

[legalslave]

Thanks menea &Hank. Vibration or not, we're going! I have stayed in aft wraps on HAL previously and never felt anything. Of course, it was the inside passage roundtrip Vancouver. Both of those times in an aft wrap, it was 7142 on the Zuiderdam. Friends got us hooked on the aft wraps for Alaska.

 

Diane

[sppunk]

Don't think it is cavitation in this case. The vibration is evident in port (see post 12 and 28). It seems to be in the generators.

 

BTW, most may not know, but Azipods pull through the water as opposed to push. This helps reduce cavitation. ( http://www.beyondships2.com/faq-azipods.html )

 

Trout

 

From what the marine architect tried to explain to us, this is more in line. The superstructure and placement of the generators can create a ripple effect vibration that really gets going when the ship is sailing slower than the current (which is more often that you'd think). It creates a shudder-like movement that's unique.

 

They know the causes and have said any newbuild would address them.

 

What ship did HAL used to sail long ago that was infamous for her vibration? Was it the original NA?

[Dave in NJ]

What ship did HAL used to sail long ago that was infamous for her vibration? Was it the original NA?

 

As noted previously in this thread, both the Noordam and Nieuw Amsterdam of 1983/84 could shake a cocktail pretty well at times. As to the "original" Nieuw Amsterdam, I doubt anyone is alive today who sailed on her, built in 1905 and broken up in 1932.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Dave in NJ

[trout62]

From what the marine architect tried to explain to us, this is more in line. The superstructure and placement of the generators can create a ripple effect vibration that really gets going when the ship is sailing slower than the current (which is more often that you'd think). It creates a shudder-like movement that's unique.

 

They know the causes and have said any newbuild would address them.

 

What ship did HAL used to sail long ago that was infamous for her vibration? Was it the original NA?

 

You know, I think there may actually be two different "vibrations" that people are trying to describe here.

 

I have been on Zuiderdam, Westerdam and now NA. All had the occasional "shudder" that you describe above.

 

But the constant (though not particularly annoying) vibration I experienced on NA was different. It was more of a constant tap tap tap tapping at a set frequency, maybe 4 taps per seconds (?).

 

I described in another post (I think) dropping under water in the aft pool and I could hear the tapping very clearly.

 

So, I think the tapping is generators, the shudder azipods.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Trout

[summersigh]

We sailed NA's sister ship Eurodam March 8 in a verandah, deck 7, about 5 cabins from the aft on the starboard side. We noticed a vibration that we'd not noticed on any other ship we've sailed. We noticed it in the MDR and on at least one of our journeys to the Crow's Nest as well. It wasn't unpleasant nor did it vibrate any of our stuff around but it was there none the less. :)

[POA1]

The Zuiderdam had a big cavitation problem when she launched. There was a distinct thunking in the lower dining room. They fixed it by mixing air into the water stream coming into the azipods. (Peter Wallis, aka Peter the Purser, told us this when we were on the Ryndam in Mexico, circa 2005.) The Zuiderdam was the only ship on which we noticed vibration.

 

We didn't notice any on the Nieuw Amsterdam during the three weeks we sailed on her in the fall. While I understand that we might be more motion tolerant, I can say that you would definitely notice cavitation. It creates a standing wave. This requires motion, so I doubt that a ship could cavitate at rest.

[rkacruiser]

The Zuiderdam had a big cavitation problem when she launched. There was a distinct thunking in the lower dining room. They fixed it by mixing air into the water stream coming into the azipods. (Peter Wallis, aka Peter the Purser, told us this when we were on the Ryndam in Mexico, circa 2005.) The Zuiderdam was the only ship on which we noticed vibration.

 

We didn't notice any on the Nieuw Amsterdam during the three weeks we sailed on her in the fall. While I understand that we might be more motion tolerant, I can say that you would definitely notice cavitation. It creates a standing wave. This requires motion, so I doubt that a ship could cavitate at rest.

 

I sailed on the Zuiderdam when she had this cavitation problem. One morning, I asked to be seated for breakfast at the aft windows in the lower dining room where the vibration had been reported to be the most obvious. The Steward seating guests tried to persuade me not to sit there, But I insisted. The vibration was as bad as reported. My coffee cup and saucer literally moved across the table and would have fallen off the table if I had allowed it to do so.

 

The injection of air into the water stream under the keel did solve the issue and I have been told that all of the other Vista Class ships, when built, incorporated that design as well.

[Topsham]

Quite right. The stream of air along the hull in the stream of the propeller worked. On top... it was an on board engineer came up with the idea... and them implemented when in drydock. The idea of air stream has been before but not quite as used in this instance. Before the air stream was used to reduce the friction along the hull.

 

Re Mr Wallis.... good old friend. One of HAL's only four stripe Chief Pursers!

 

Stephen

[rkacruiser]

Quite right. The stream of air along the hull in the stream of the propeller worked. On top... it was an on board engineer came up with the idea... and them implemented when in drydock. The idea of air stream has been before but not quite as used in this instance. Before the air stream was used to reduce the friction along the hull.

 

Re Mr Wallis.... good old friend. One of HAL's only four stripe Chief Pursers!

 

Stephen

 

 

Mr. Card,

 

Was this same stream of air along the hull in the propeller's stream needed to be incoporated into the Signature Class vessel design?

[Molson99]

We were on for 2 weeks in aft balcony 8168. Never noticed any vibration. We heard the occasional deck chair slide around but never any vibration of any kind.

 

 

we are aft balcony 8164 on an upcoming nieuw Amsterdam cruise.have never done an aft balcony before, but have read good things. is it windy? noisy? was there so,e cover from the sun?

[POA1]

Mr. Card,

 

Was this same stream of air along the hull in the propeller's stream needed to be incoporated into the Signature Class vessel design?

I'm not Topsham, but the gentleman who told us about the Zuiderdam fix said that the problem was corrected on subsequent Vista ships - the Oosterdam and forward. The Zuiderdam was the first HAL ship to use azipods.

[Dave in NJ]

The Zuiderdam was the first HAL ship to use azipods.

 

I believe the Amsterdam was the first HAL ship with azipods, Rotterdam was the last with conventional shaft drive.

[c-legs]

The Zuiderdam was the first HAL ship to use azipods.

 

I believe the Amsterdam was the first HAL ship with azipods, Rotterdam was the last with conventional shaft drive.

 

This is correct. Now...I wonder if Amsterdam's guests ever experienced

vibration .primarly aft. The aerodynamics of Vista class ships and Amsterdam are quite different and I would not be surprised if Amsterdam never had such a problem.

Cheers

[Topsham]

Mr. Card,

 

Was this same stream of air along the hull in the propeller's stream needed to be incoporated into the Signature Class vessel design?

 

 

I'm not certain... might have been. The azipods may have been changed design to avoid needing the bubbles.

 

The other idea... air bubles along the hull... this was reduce water friction on along the hull... saves fuel.

 

We all know about bulbous bows. Yes. Now some thinking by some new designers feel that the bulbs are not necessary at all. All new stuff.

[colorado cruiser 42]

I am the "old" guy whose first try at posting a response was placed on a 1 1/2 year old thread thinking I was answering a query for info on the vibration problem on aft cabins on NA. We had cabin 6166 for our embarking at Ft. Lauderdale on April 8, 2015 for the TA, one day after my 80th birthday. The vibration at the dock was pronounced and hoping it would be less once underway we spent a very unpleasant first night. After much haggling with numerous staff we were able to sleep the next night in an almost refurbished 5115 and move to it the next day for the rest of the trip.

 

Anyone who downplays the vibration problem in these aft cabins is either numb or works for NA. Standing in the hallways within a few cabins aft on at least deck 5 or 6 you can feel it. In the cabins it can be felt either sitting or laying on the bed. If you sit in a chair and rest your elbows on the arm rests holding a book, it shakes the book such that it can't be read. Try the toilet seat next. In 5115 it was occasionally felt but was not in anyway a problem. Visiting new friends in 5165 it was very noticeable.

 

FYI NA has six very big engines, 4 Mak M 43C 12's and 2 8's driving generators. These power all the ships power requirements including the two Azipods. The vibration at the dock eliminates the Azipods from the equation, as sea states or any other propulsion environment. I couldn't determine the frequency of the vibration but seemed to be somewhere in the 100 cycle per minute area. The fact that this hasn't been corrected leads one to believe it is a mechanical design problem involving harmonics amongst those big engine/generators and their load sharing. I would assume NA has experimented with altering with these.

 

It's not polite to make fun of old foggies.

[NoWhiners]

[quote=colorado cruiser 42;46772498

The fact that this hasn't been corrected leads one to believe it is a mechanical design problem involving harmonics amongst those big engine/generators and their load sharing. I would assume NA has experimented with altering with these.

 

 

Against my better judgement, I am going to repeat what we were told on our NA cruise last March. Your quote is right on. We met the guy who had been flown to the NA to try and fix the vibration. he said it was due to harmonics, and he was using a software program to try and balance the loads. he also said the fundamental frequency was 9 Hz. And that in order to balance the loads, he had to jack up the engines, add in some rubber (? can't remember what they were made of) 'spacers' and then lower engine back down. He said it was indeed a design flaw.

 

When I posted this after our cruise, I was roundly told by many "experts" on this board, who weren't there, that he was full of baloney, we were stupid to listen to him, etc etc. So, while my husband and I believed him (we are both engineers), I am only contributing this to confirm your guess!

 

No need for anyone to tell us we are stupid or he was wrong. :)

 

Good luck

ML

 

PS: I agree, it is not polite to make fun of old fogeys!