Oh no not the tipping question again

[POA1]

Hi I think to end all this about tipping is the cruise lines increase the cost of the cruises to cover the tips for length of time you are on the ship. Then the question of Tipping is gone.

It's just like the way the airlines don't charge for baggage, or legroom, or meals. ;)

[regnig]

That certainly spells out a lot of topics that are often argued about here - but I can't find the paragraph quoted in post #69. Maybe that is from an older version?

 

The quote came from Page 22 of the Crew Services Cabin Directory which is a PDF file you access by clicking on the link that says “View the Crew Services Dirctory”.

 

Copy and pasted directly from that document ...............

TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY

All ships have the Rewards for Excellence (RfE) Plan which

consists of Hotel Service Charges and Beverage Service

Charges. If a guest chooses to adjust out of the RfE Plan

and instead provide cash tips to an employee, the employee

is required to turn in this cash to their Department Head

so the money can be added to the RfE plan. Any “tips”

received above and beyond the guests standard amount

may be kept by the crewmember.

[serendipity1499]

[/b]

 

That is the first time I have seen that posted in all the tip/HSC discussions I have read here on CC. And I am sure many will call into question it's authenticity, but it backs up what so many regulars have posted here through the years,

I have often wondered where this rule was posted & even thought this was just a word of mouth policy...

 

Now I know better & for others who are questioning it's authenticity, have found the paragraph which was quoted in an earlier post :)on "Page 22 "of the "House Rules" which all HAL Ships Employees have in their cabins:

 

Quote http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/house_rules.pdf

 

Agree with the original poster, this PDF is registered to Holland American Line:

 

Quote TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY

All ships have the Rewards for Excellence (RfE) Plan which

consists of Hotel Service Charges and Beverage Service

Charges. If a guest chooses to adjust out of the RfE Plan

and instead provide cash tips to an employee, the employee

is required to turn in this cash to their Department Head

so the money can be added to the RfE plan. Any “tips”

received above and beyond the guests standard amount

may be kept by the crewmember. Unquote

 

BTW, also discovered that HAL Stewards are paid a base rate for the first 48 hours per week & then get overtime pay.. The PDF also states our Stewards are guaranteed a minimum of 10 hours rest per day but not necessarily at one time..

 

It's an interesting PDF to read & makes you realize how many rules must be followed.. IMO HAL Stewards & their Officers are the cream of the crop & deserve every cent/dollar they get..:):)

[serendipity1499]

The quote came from Page 22 of the Crew Services Cabin Directory which is a PDF file you access by clicking on the link that says “View the Crew Services Dirctory”.

 

Copy and pasted directly from that document ...............

TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY

All ships have the Rewards for Excellence (RfE) Plan which

consists of Hotel Service Charges and Beverage Service

Charges. If a guest chooses to adjust out of the RfE Plan

and instead provide cash tips to an employee, the employee

is required to turn in this cash to their Department Head

so the money can be added to the RfE plan. Any “tips”

received above and beyond the guests standard amount

may be kept by the crewmember.

 

OOPS sorry, ;);)I was writing my post & never saw yours, but happy to know that we agree..

 

So those folks who doubt it, can read it..

[POA1]

The quote came from Page 22 of the Crew Services Cabin Directory which is a PDF file you access by clicking on the link that says “View the Crew Services Dirctory”.

 

Copy and pasted directly from that document ...............

TIPPING NOT REQUIRED POLICY

All ships have the Rewards for Excellence (RfE) Plan which

consists of Hotel Service Charges and Beverage Service

Charges. If a guest chooses to adjust out of the RfE Plan

and instead provide cash tips to an employee, the employee

is required to turn in this cash to their Department Head

so the money can be added to the RfE plan. Any “tips”

received above and beyond the guests standard amount

may be kept by the crewmember.

Would it kill you to post the URL to the PDF? I used BlackWidow on the site and I honestly cannot find the text your quoting in any PDF on the site.

 

You seem to know how to cut and paste. Surely pasting a link is something you can do.

[serendipity1499]

Would it kill you to post the URL to the PDF? I used BlackWidow on the site and I honestly cannot find the text your quoting in any PDF on the site.

 

You seem to know how to cut and paste. Surely pasting a link is something you can do.

 

POA posted the PDF, try this & go to page 22..Last paragraph in column one.. It's very small type

 

http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/house_rules.pdf

Edited April 24, 2015 by serendipity1499

[POA1]

POA posted the PDF, try this & go to page 22..Last6 paragraph in column one.. It's very small type

 

http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/house_rules.pdf

Thanks. It didn't show up in the scan. I stand corrected. Sorry.

[regnig]

Would it kill you to post the URL to the PDF? I used BlackWidow on the site and I honestly cannot find the text your quoting in any PDF on the site.

 

You seem to know how to cut and paste. Surely pasting a link is something you can do.

 

:o Sorry about that POA1, I simply used the URL you posted and read more than the 1st page. You forgive me don't you??? ;)

[galensgrl]

POA posted the PDF, try this & go to page 22..Last paragraph in column one.. It's very small type

 

http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/house_rules.pdf

 

Thank you for posting the fact of the matter. It seems like people post comments inviting opinions about hot button topics, and then they get offended by the opionions that don't match their own. You can't really argue with facts, even if people are just going to do whatever they want anyway. At least they know what really happens when they do take the HSC matter into their own hands because there it is in black and white. In my opinion I just don't think it's right to take that money from people who work hard behind the scenes making a cruise so pleasant - employees who clean decks and public areas, people who bus tables and serve in the Lido, etc. Yes the cruise line could pay them more, and that will lead to higher cruise fares. As it is they have cut the number of employees working on these ships, and the employees who do have a job have to work even harder. We think the HSC is a very small way to show our appreciation for their hard work, even if others don't feel that way.

 

Lorie

Edited April 24, 2015 by galensgrl

[gomama5996]

I always tip hotel housekeepers and only a few years ago, when I began participating in another travel message board, learned that many people do not. I'm in my 50's and remember as a little child my parents leaving change for the maids at the old Travel Lodges and Howard Johnsons. They told me that you should always tip anyone that scrubs out the sink and shower, handles your bedding, or cleans the toilet after you have used it. They also taught me to treat others the way I would like to be treated. And believe me, LOL, if I made a living wiping up other folks' hair, etc. I would certainly appreciate a buck or two on the nightstand!

[POA1]

POA posted the PDF, try this & go to page 22..Last paragraph in column one.. It's very small type

 

http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/house_rules.pdf

I posted a link to a web page, not a PDF. My link was:

 

http://welcome2hal.com/houserules.php

 

It doesn't talk about tipping. There is, however, a link to the PDF on that page. It's at the hyperlink with the anchor text "Crew Services Directories." The PDF is at:

 

http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/house_rules.pdf

 

There's a whole slew of old files off of:

 

http://www.welcome2hal.com/publications/

 

It looks like they updated the site, but there are links to old content. Normally, that kind of thing gets cleaned up and redirected, but they might have missed it. (Or Stein Kruse is the HAL CEO. And it's 2009.)

[POA1]

:o Sorry about that POA1, I simply used the URL you posted and read more than the 1st page. You forgive me don't you??? ;)

No problem. I didn't post the PDF. I posted a PHP link that's only one page. You're correct though. You can get to the PDF you referenced off the page I posted.

 

http://welcome2hal.com/houserules.php

 

The house rules page doesn't reference tipping. Here it is in its entirety:

 

House Rules

You will be bound by rules that guide your appearance, time keeping, and conduct while onboard. The House Rules can be found in each cabin in the cabin directory. Following each of the rules will ensure we maintain a standard of excellence in safety, security, and professionalism.

Space is limited onboard and cabins are no exception. For this reason, it's important to pack light. Depending on your position you may or may not share a cabin, however beyond having a roommate, your cabin will include a bed with reading light, desk, TV, phone, sink, hanging closet with a few hangers and drawers. Officers will have a private toilet and shower.

You will eat your meals in designated areas depending on your ship and your rank. You will find a variety of foods that appeal to tastes of our international crewmembers. You may not cook in your cabin for safety reasons. No warming or cooking appliances are allowed in your cabin. If any of these are found in your cabin, it will result in immediate dismissal. There are vending machines where you can purchase drinks and snacks for a modest amount. You may purchase items with the shops and receive discounted prices. Special sales organized by the shop managers will also occur from time to time.

Uniforms will be laundered without charge through crew laundry services. For personal clothing you will use the crew laundry machines at no charge.

Standard recreational equipment, based on available space, includes a crew gym, ping pong table, disc pool table, basketball net and balls, foosball table, dartboards, video arcade, and videos. The Personnel Excellence Program Committee (PEP) organizes many of the crew activities. 10-12 crewmembers volunteer and represent the employee groups onboard. The PEP Commitee organizes crew parties, crew bingo, shore excursions, team sports, and a variety of other recreational activities limited only by their imagination.

If you should get sick there is medical staff onboard each ship to address illness and emergencies. When you are feeling ill you should advise your supervisor and report to the infirmary during crew consulting hours. This is a complimentary service to all crewmembers.

View the Crew Services Directories

Key Points

Guests must be shown respect at all times. Do not argue with Guests. If you have a problem with a Guest, politely excuse yourself and inform your Department Head.

Crewmembers must report for duty on time.

Do not chew gum in public areas.

Do not talk or stand with your hands in your pockets.

Crewmembers must retain the cabin assigned to them, and obtain permission from their department head to be reassigned.

Crew members must be properly dressed at all times.

Gambling is strictly forbidden.

Crewmembers are not allowed in Guest areas when off duty.

Offensive language is not tolerated.

English is to be spoken in public areas at all times.

Harassment is not tolerated.

Smile!

Health and Security

The safety of the ship and those onboard are of paramount importance. All employees are expected to comply fully with all requirements, procedures or rules concerning safety matters and to attend safety training and drill session when required. The following must be complied with to ensure health and safety onboard:

Any behavior that would impede the progress or navigation of the ship is grounds for dismissal.

Drunkenness is not tolerated.

Illegal drugs or weapons are strictly forbidden.

Crewmembers will not be involved in fights.

Crewmembers will not deface, abuse, or pilfer the ship's property.

Wear or use safety equipment and/or clothing as required.

Ship I.D. must be visible at all times.

Crewmembers must attend safety training drills as required.

Do not allow unauthorized persons onboard the ship.

Guests are not allowed in crew areas.

Don't smoke in unauthorized areas.

Open flames and unauthorized cooking appliances are forbidden in your cabin.

Report personal infections or contagious illnesses.

Follow USPH rules concerning hygienic working practices.

Environment

The company takes its environmental responsibilities very seriously.* Holland America Line's Commitment to Safety and the Environment is embodied in our Safety and Environmental Protection Policy.* This policy commits Holland America Line employees to three principal goals: Safety at sea, protection of the environment, and continuous improvement.

To ensure protection of the environment, Holland America Line has implemented an Environmental Management System, or EMS.* This system is comprised of policies and procedures, classroom and on-the-job training, and Environmental monthly self-assessments, objectives and target for continuous improvement and annual audits.* The policies and procedures have been incorporated into our existing Safety Management System. Each employee is responsible for supporting this Environmental Management System by:

No Garbage Overboard: Please do not throw anything away overboard. Trash receptacles and ash trays are provided on all open decks for your use.

Use the proper Waste Container: We have placed waste containers for paper, aluminum cans and garbage throughout the vessel. Using the right container goes a long way to helping ensure it is properly and efficiently managed.

Recycling: All ships have recycling, garbage and hazardous materials programs that address bottles, cans, paper, cardboard, plastic and hazardous waste.

Cleaning Supplies: Use only approved cleaning products specifically designed for environmentally friendly application onboard ships.

Water Conservation: Be mindful of water use when showering, cleaning and otherwise running the tap.

Towel Re-Use option: You can signal your cabin steward of your desire for fresh towels by simply leaving them on the floor. If you would like to re-use your towel, hang it on the bathroom door or towel rack to let the cabin steward know of your intentions. This helps the environment by reducing energy, water, and detergents required for daily washings.

Turn off Cabin Lights and TV When not in Use: As when ashore, energy conservation goes a long way towards helping us protect the environment.

Close Exterior Doors: You can help maintain interior temperatures and humidity while conserving energy and helping protect the environment by assuring that exterior doors in both public and cabin spaces are not left open un-necessarily.

Protect Wildlife: Do not disturb or feed birds and other wildlife. Do not touch or handle coral reefs when SCUBA diving or snorkeling.

No Litter Ashore: Please do not leave trash on beaches - use trash receptacles or carry it back onboard with you.

Dress Code and Grooming

The Dress Code/Uniform Policy has been defined for you.

View the Dress Code/Uniform Policy

Employees are expected to maintain a professional and conservative appearance and be well groomed at all times.* The following list does not include the full uniform requirements, but will provide many of the things you will need to keep in mind:

Personal hygiene must be observed at all times - clothes, hair, hands, nails and body must be clean, stain and odor free

The strong use of fragrances should be avoided

Employees must be properly shaven. Beards and mustaches are not encouraged, but are allowed only when kept immaculate. To start growing beards and mustaches while serving a term onboard is not allowed and should not interfere with or prohibit the use of safety equipment

Long hair is not permitted for men and should not be longer than to the shirt collar

Men are not permitted to wear earrings

Visible body piercing, except earrings for women, are not permitted

Visible tattoos are not permitted

Women should wear only conservative jewelry

Make-up must be discreet and in colors that blend with skin tone

Women must wear pantyhose while on duty

When wearing short sleeves or coveralls, only the top button may be open

Low cut clothing is not allowed. No cleavage or hairy chests should ever be visible to our guests

Men are encouraged to wear a V-neck undershirt under the uniform

Name tags must be worn on the left side of the uniform at all times

Shoes and socks must be conservative and worn with appropriate uniform

The appropriate uniform for the time of day or function must be worn.

[Bedruthen]

This has been a fascinating thread to read, but what occurs to me is this. Tipping I believe originated as a means of rewarding good service and to encourage that good service to continue. If you have a policy which requires staff to hand in all tips for them to be redistributed equally, then both of these principles of tipping disappear. The person who goes the extra mile for you every day, gets exactly the same reward as the one who just performs to his job description and the same as the guy who never seems to get it right. Where is the incentive for anyone to go above and beyond?

In my view if you are going to equalise tips then you might as well just add the tip charge to the cost of the cruise.

[Randyk47]

This has been a fascinating thread to read, but what occurs to me is this. Tipping I believe originated as a means of rewarding good service and to encourage that good service to continue. If you have a policy which requires staff to hand in all tips for them to be redistributed equally, then both of these principles of tipping disappear. The person who goes the extra mile for you every day, gets exactly the same reward as the one who just performs to his job description and the same as the guy who never seems to get it right. Where is the incentive for anyone to go above and beyond?

In my view if you are going to equalise tips then you might as well just add the tip charge to the cost of the cruise.

 

The policy isn't that all cash tips be turned in. That is only required when the tip is received from a passenger who has reduced or removed the Hotel Service Charge.

[Bedruthen]

The policy isn't that all cash tips be turned in. That is only required when the tip is received from a passenger who has reduced or removed the Hotel Service Charge.

 

I understand that completely, although I have no idea why so many people on this thread claim that in addition to paying the Hotel Service Charge, they also pay a cash tip. When you go to a restaurant at home, do you pay your percentage tip, then 5 minutes later, pay it all again? I doubt it, so why do it on a cruise. If the Hotel service charge is added to your bill, and you don't remove it, then you are therefore accepting that you have received good service. By paying an additional tip, you are effectively agreeing that the hotel service charge doesn't actually reward individual employee effort of reflect the level of service that you have received. So let the cruise lines remove service charges completely and let passengers show their appreciation on an individual basis, thereby bringing back the original purpose of a tip, which is to encourage and reward good service.

[LMaxwell]

I understand that completely, although I have no idea why so many people on this thread claim that in addition to paying the Hotel Service Charge, they also pay a cash tip. When you go to a restaurant at home, do you pay your percentage tip, then 5 minutes later, pay it all again? I doubt it, so why do it on a cruise. If the Hotel service charge is added to your bill, and you don't remove it, then you are therefore accepting that you have received good service. By paying an additional tip, you are effectively agreeing that the hotel service charge doesn't actually reward individual employee effort of reflect the level of service that you have received. So let the cruise lines remove service charges completely and let passengers show their appreciation on an individual basis, thereby bringing back the original purpose of a tip, which is to encourage and reward good service.

The cruise line likes to get their hands on it first so they can distribute as they see fit, not how the customer intends it.

[Topsham]

Everyone goes around and around with this question. It come down to two things... either you leave the HSC along as it is the easiest method and fair way to tip crew and add anything extra OR some people are just using an excuse to not paying ANYTHING for good service.

 

Method One: You leave the HSC alone. If you have some crew will go well and above so you can go ahead and add something to the individual.

 

Method Two: You make an excuse for not paying HSC. The excuse may because of bad service from one individual. So you penalize ALL of the crew because one waiter did something at you table. OK... take $1 off the HSC.

 

HSC is a fair system. Two reasons. Firstly. In the old days HAL said "Tipping not required'. It did not say 'NO TIPPING' it simply said.... it is included and if you wish to give something extra... you can, it is simply not required.

 

Secondly. HAL came up with a better to manage crew wages. In the old days, the 'tip' was part of the wages. Any 'tips not required' went to the individual crewmember. It was never ' fair'. Too many crewmembers should have had something for their extra but they received nothing. Because the passengers did not fairly pass the loot around.

 

HAL made a decision to use the HSC system. It involved tax on wages. Corporation tax on the wages paid out. A lot of money. Instead of taxing the full amount, the amount paid to the crew were the minimal amount. It saved money. So, to get around the taxes, instead the HSC is charged on your account. It means that money... paid out to the crew are not taxed from the US Govt. Just as a way of paying the crew... same or better than before. In a way, exactly the same as before... 'Tipping not required'. In addition, it makes a saving to HAL and partly allows all the passenger to get the price on their cruises.

 

So the OP that says that HAL should pay all their crew so they don't need to work for tips.... he is wrong. The OP just does not understand how the system works... for the best for everyone. The simple reason is that it must be done as HSC to keep the whole thing legal with the US Tax Man!

 

So... don't worry. Pay the HSC as you are asked to do. You are doing the right for the crew and also trying to make certain that HAL get a good product for the passengers. Anyone that tries to take the HSC off their account is trying to be clever... and does nothing for a lot of work for the crew. Leave it alone. If you don't pay the HSC ... known as a 'walk off', you have done a real job of saving for $12 per day.

[LMaxwell]

The simple reason is that it must be done as HSC to keep the whole thing legal with the US Tax Man!

 

The crew don't pay income taxes to the US.

 

Any system where an employer takes a gratuity and then decides how much of it to pass out and to whom is an unfair system to the worker.

Edited April 25, 2015 by LMaxwell

[KevInPitt]

I wish to thank MickyBee, POA and Larson for their diligence in locating written evidence that supports the much debated and often refuted position on how additional gratuities are handled should a guest invoke their rightful option to remove the HSC.

 

There now appears to be the proof many have demanded to see (instead of just "I heard it with my own ears" or "I saw it with my own eyes"). Perhaps this will end the redundant argument on the subject - but I doubt it.

 

Those in disagreement with the construct of the HSC will almost certainly come up with innovative new defenses for their intention to remove the HSC. However, the defense can no longer be removing the HSC and extending a full cash gratuity puts 100% of that gratuity directly in the hands of the service provider.

[Randyk47]

I understand that completely, although I have no idea why so many people on this thread claim that in addition to paying the Hotel Service Charge, they also pay a cash tip. When you go to a restaurant at home, do you pay your percentage tip, then 5 minutes later, pay it all again? I doubt it, so why do it on a cruise. If the Hotel service charge is added to your bill, and you don't remove it, then you are therefore accepting that you have received good service. By paying an additional tip, you are effectively agreeing that the hotel service charge doesn't actually reward individual employee effort of reflect the level of service that you have received. So let the cruise lines remove service charges completely and let passengers show their appreciation on an individual basis, thereby bringing back the original purpose of a tip, which is to encourage and reward good service.

 

We're among the group that often or usually tips an additional amount but I have to stress it's to a limited number of people for what we perceive as excellent to exceptional service. When I think back about the old system there were suggested amounts expressed in dollars and cents per day for a given service. We generally followed the suggested amounts and again usually added a bit more for those who we felt went that extra bit to make our cruise more pleasurable. Quite frankly when HAL went to the HSC it was actually less in total than we'd been tipping out of hand under the old system. Now granted some of the amount kind of got lost in the accounting especially since in addition to the HSC they went to the 15% surcharge on bar purchases. Anyhow, today we're more or less at the same level of outlay as in the old days when we add the HSC, a rough idea of the surcharge, and what we tip out of hand. Personally I don't have a problem with the HSC and actually like it as it means I wind up dealing with less cash for tips at the end of the cruise.

[Topsham]

The crew don't pay income taxes to the US.

 

Any system where an employer takes a gratuity and then decides how much of it to pass out and to whom is an unfair system to the worker.

 

 

That is not what I said. The US Govt takes the PAYROLL TAX. Not the crew wages. By reducing the PAYROLL TAX then it is better for everyone. Donlt slam... they are not doing anything wrong. The crew are better off now than what they used to pay.

[Topsham]

When I think back about the old system there were suggested amounts expressed in dollars and cents per day for a given service. We generally followed the suggested amounts and again usually added a bit more for those who we felt went that extra bit to make our cruise more pleasurable. QUOTE]

 

 

 

Not quite Randy. HAL paid more for their crews because their system was "Tipping Not Required'. No one would never suggest any amount... never! It was other cruise lines... handed out pre-printed envelopes to say... $5 to the maitr'd..... cabin steward $2 per day etc etc. HAL never did that.

 

It was a nuisance because some passenger would say, "Oh, it means we don't have to tip!' Just same today to passengers that think that the HSC is 'optional'.

 

HSC is fine... you don't have to look for every person who deserves something.... just go as before... you just don't have to look everyone on that last day and miss them.

 

The HSC on HAL works just fine.

[Topsham]

Quite frankly when HAL went to the HSC it was actually less in total than we'd been tipping out of hand under the old system. Now granted some of the amount kind of got lost in the accounting especially since in addition to the HSC they went to the 15% surcharge on bar purchases. Anyhow, today we're more or less at the same level of outlay as in the old days when we add the HSC, a rough idea of the surcharge, and what we tip out of hand. Personally I don't have a problem with the HSC and actually like it as it means I wind up dealing with less cash for tips at the end of the cruise.

 

 

THIS IS COMPLETELY TRUE! HSC IS A GODSEND!!!!!

 

Thanks Randy.

 

The only thing I missis the old system for bar waiter. Cash tips! Bar waiter and bar tenders knew what service was about. Along immediate 15% and you never see a joke or game in the bar. I think it ruined the old bar atmosphere.

 

Stephen

[summersigh]

I understand that completely, although I have no idea why so many people on this thread claim that in addition to paying the Hotel Service Charge, they also pay a cash tip. When you go to a restaurant at home, do you pay your percentage tip, then 5 minutes later, pay it all again? I doubt it, so why do it on a cruise.

 

When we go to a restaurant we tip the 15% for service that's OK. But, if the service we get is outstanding and the server goes above and beyond what's expected then it's not unusual for us to leave 20%.

 

I guess that same thinking follows us onto the ship. (And yes, we always leave the HSC in place.) If an employee goes above and beyond the normal expectation then we'd probably slip them extra cash above and beyond the HSC.

[Randyk47]

The crew don't pay income taxes to the US.

 

Any system where an employer takes a gratuity and then decides how much of it to pass out and to whom is an unfair system to the worker.

 

To some extent I have to reluctantly agree. Certainly on the positive side there are now crew members who benefit but didn't before because they were so buried in the service system they were not known or visible to passengers. On the negative side is that high performers, especially those in direct contact with passengers, who may not be getting as much as before or if they were under the old system. Personally I worked for a boss who was given a lump sum of incentive monies to parcel out annually. Rather than do it based on performance he took the easy road and portioned it out by position and grade rather than by performance. Initially most thought that was fair but in the long run most got to hate the system as they saw low performers in their group getting the same bonus. Turned into a negative incentive.