Oh no not the tipping question again

[iancal]

We do not feel obligated to leave a tip.

 

If we get good service we tip generously.

 

I think that people who feel obligated to tip even for poor service do the rest of us a disservice. It encourages poor/mediocre service levels.

Edited April 25, 2015 by iancal

[jtl513]

So let the cruise lines remove service charges completely and let passengers show their appreciation on an individual basis, thereby bringing back the original purpose of a tip, which is to encourage and reward good service.

The problem then is that only the room and MDR stewards would get very much, and the hundreds of others who contributed to making your cruise enjoyable would get little to nothing.

 

Any system where an employer takes a gratuity and then decides how much of it to pass out and to whom is an unfair system to the worker.

As Winston Churchill once said about democracy, "It is the worst {form} except for all the others." If the workers believed it was unfair they would not come back after their first contract ended.

[Randyk47]

THIS IS COMPLETELY TRUE! HSC IS A GODSEND!!!!!

 

Thanks Randy.

 

The only thing I missis the old system for bar waiter. Cash tips! Bar waiter and bar tenders knew what service was about. Along immediate 15% and you never see a joke or game in the bar. I think it ruined the old bar atmosphere.

 

Stephen

 

I agree about the bar service. Not sure exactly where to lay the blame but personally between the cuts in staff and the advent of the surcharge we think service has gone down hill. When you have to go to the bar to get a drink and the server tells you they're playing a card game and he'll be with you after the hand they're playing then something is wrong. :eek:

[Topsham]

Oceaan Bar..... used to be hopping... noon and evening! Hot appetizers. A band with dancing. Used to be crammed with people. What happened to them?!!!! It was FUN.

[Randyk47]

Oceaan Bar..... used to be hopping... noon and evening! Hot appetizers. A band with dancing. Used to be crammed with people. What happened to them?!!!! It was FUN.

 

Same situation in the Crow's Nest. As much as we loved our last Maasdam cruise the Crow's Nest was a huge disappointment. How serious? Serious enough we've started cruising other lines.

[POA1]

The crew don't pay income taxes to the US.

 

Any system where an employer takes a gratuity and then decides how much of it to pass out and to whom is an unfair system to the worker.

 

Yes. The system where you remove the HSC and deprive the staff of expected compensation really sticks it to Holland America.... No, wait. It's sticks it to the woman in the galley and the guy in the laundry.

 

The employer is only taking the gratuity when a guest decides that the workers don't deserve the HSC. If the guest leaves the HSC in place, the worker gets to keep the gratuity.

 

The HSC compensation amounts are part of the employees contracts. It doesn't get unbalanced until the anti-worker types decide to withhold the HSC.

[POA1]

We do not feel obligated to leave a tip.

 

If we get good service we tip generously.

I think that people who feel obligated to tip even for poor service do the rest of us a disservice. It encourages poor/mediocre service levels.

 

I think it's a safe assumption that those people aren't participating in this thread. :D

[iancal]

It can hardly be called a gratuity IF the employer not only collects it but decides who gets what and how much.

 

It is a wage subsidy to the cruise line.

 

We never remove it but we do not really like how it is done.

Edited April 25, 2015 by iancal

[LMaxwell]

Yes. The system where you remove the HSC and deprive the staff of expected compensation really sticks it to Holland America.... No, wait. It's sticks it to the woman in the galley and the guy in the laundry.

 

The employer is only taking the gratuity when a guest decides that the workers don't deserve the HSC. If the guest leaves the HSC in place, the worker gets to keep the gratuity.

 

The HSC compensation amounts are part of the employees contracts. It doesn't get unbalanced until the anti-worker types decide to withhold the HSC.

Holland does not give 100 pct of HSC to crew. They keep some for crew wellness and then they distribute the rest based on internal performance metrics. That's how all the lines do it

[POA1]

Holland does not give 100 pct of HSC to crew. They keep some for crew wellness and then they distribute the rest based on internal performance metrics. That's how all the lines do it

 

That still doesn't change the fact that the employees can keep the tips if the guests leave the HSC in place. I think it's the housekeeping service charge thing that's throwing you. It's not the same as a tip. Employees are allowed to keep their tips - unless the guest removes the HSC.

Since we have nothing against "crew wellness" and realize that we can't really measure the performance of the behind the scenes employees, I can't see any issue with the way the HSC is distributed. After all, it's in the crew members' contracts. For the $24/day that my wife and I pay, I really don't want to be negotiating individual contracts with every functional department on the ship. It's not very vacation-y. It just seems grossly unfair to deprive workers of money they're expecting just to "stick it to the man."

 

If you leave the HSC in place, you can tip the people whom you feel deserve it. They'll get to keep the money.

[jtl513]

It can hardly be called a gratuity ...

And it's not called a gratuity by HAL, it's called a Service Charge.

[cbr663]

It can hardly be called a gratuity IF the employer not only collects it but decides who gets what and how much.

 

It is a wage subsidy to the cruise line.

 

We never remove it but we do not really like how it is done.

 

I agree. Even though it is passengers who leave the HSC intact, it is HAL that ultimately decides whether or not and how much it wishes to pay out to crew members, not passengers.

[LMaxwell]

That still doesn't change the fact that the employees can keep the tips if the guests leave the HSC in place. I think it's the housekeeping service charge thing that's throwing you. It's not the same as a tip. Employees are allowed to keep their tips - unless the guest removes the HSC.

Since we have nothing against "crew wellness" and realize that we can't really measure the performance of the behind the scenes employees, I can't see any issue with the way the HSC is distributed. After all, it's in the crew members' contracts. For the $24/day that my wife and I pay, I really don't want to be negotiating individual contracts with every functional department on the ship. It's not very vacation-y. It just seems grossly unfair to deprive workers of money they're expecting just to "stick it to the man."

 

If you leave the HSC in place, you can tip the people whom you feel deserve it. They'll get to keep the money.

 

It should be a straight pass through and the employees should get 100 pct of HSC. Anything less is wage theft. We may have the world's best cabin attendant but if they take 1 minute longer than allocated to service a room HAL can ding their score and withhold from that employee.

 

You make it sound as if by being for fairness and transparency I am somehow against crew wellness or earning fair wages. That could not be further from the mark

[LMaxwell]

And it's not called a gratuity by HAL, it's called a Service Charge.

Actually HAL calls it by both terms.

[JCrewz]

It can hardly be called a gratuity IF the employer not only collects it but decides who gets what and how much.

 

It is a wage subsidy to the cruise line.

 

We never remove it but we do not really like how it is done.

 

Exactly, iancal. It is clear that the vast majority of CC members strongly endorse the idea of a gratuity/HSC. I get that....but why won't these very accomplished people admit that it is a bad system? Some posters insist the HSC is not optional, but it absolutely is. It should not be.

 

I don't know that HAL pays out the HSC dollar for dollar to the crew. This thread, and the sparkling posts of POA1, has proven that some well intentioned posters have shared incorrect information about employees keeping tips, etc. I have read that HSC distribution is contractual with the crew, but have yet to see any document that supports that contention.

 

How would that work anyway? Surely the maintenance crew could not expect the same percentage as restaurant servers or room stewards. I respect the fact that the way HAL pays its crew is proprietary. HAL does nothing to help the consumer decipher exactly who gets what.....and they do not have to.

 

The gratuities/HSC/whatever name they want to give the daily charge should be added into the cost of the cruise. Airlines have been forced to show the true cost of a ticket in their advertisements. Cruise lines should too.

 

At least that way there are no free riders that "steal" from the crew.

Edited April 25, 2015 by JCrewz
typo

[jtl513]

Actually HAL calls it by both terms.

Please post a link where I can read that, other than in the section title of the FAQ's where it used only as a keyword for searchers.

 

[LMaxwell]

Please post a link where I can read that, other than in the section title of the FAQ's where it used only as a keyword for searchers.

 

That's where I found it. That's where most people are going to find it. Maybe HAL should do a better job clarifying the information it provides.

 

But if you consider Cruise Critic a reliable news source the editors here call it a gratuity as well.

[iancal]

IF it is a service charge and not a gratuity then perhaps I should consider having it voided from my account.

 

To my way of thinking a service charge is an extra charge levied by the cruise line for the benefit of the cruise line.

 

My understanding of a gratuity is that is a reward, over and above fares and other charges such as tax and service charges, that is given to an employee for good service.

 

So which is it HAL?

 

Or, in the usual weasel HAL way, are they trying to walk both sides of the street at the same time while chewing gum and whistling a merry tune?? At the expense of those great employees on board their ships.

Edited April 25, 2015 by iancal

[KevInPitt]

As I predicted, the not-so-new facet of the HSC argument comes forward as fodder for the debate.

 

Some believe the cruise lines nefariously collect and only minimally distribute the HSC to service providers, using this belief as the rationale for invoking their discretionary privilege to rescind the HSC from their account.

 

Others express the HSC is a money-grab that only lines the company's pocket or that the passenger shouldn't subsidize service provider wages in such an express way as a publicized HSC.

 

If any of the above was even minimally accurate, the model would fail both in the decisions of the service providers and masses of passengers to conduct themselves differently - not only for HAL but every other mass-market cruise line that incorporates such HSC in its fare structure.

[jtl513]

IF it is a service charge and not a gratuity then perhaps I should consider having it voided from my account.

 

Or, in the usual weasel HAL way, are they trying to walk both sides of the street at the same time while chewing gum and whistling a merry tune?? At the expense of those great employees on board their ships.

HAL states "If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

 

Unfortunately they fail to enforce the requirement of citing any specific instances of bad service, and let anyone cancel it for no better reason than they don't like it --- usually because they are cheapskates.

 

I would like to see it much harder to have the HSC removed: require a face-to-face meeting with the employee who gave "bad" service, and his/her supervisor so that the employee can look the skinflint in the eyes! Schedule all such meetings on the morning of debarkation, and if the waiting line is long enough, some of the cheapskates will give up and just get off the ship! :D

 

Edited April 25, 2015 by jtl513

[serendipity1499]

I understand that completely, although I have no idea why so many people on this thread claim that in addition to paying the Hotel Service Charge, they also pay a cash tip. When you go to a restaurant at home, do you pay your percentage tip, then 5 minutes later, pay it all again? I doubt it, so why do it on a cruise. If the Hotel service charge is added to your bill, and you don't remove it, then you are therefore accepting that you have received good service. By paying an additional tip, you are effectively agreeing that the hotel service charge doesn't actually reward individual employee effort of reflect the level of service that you have received. So let the cruise lines remove service charges completely and let passengers show their appreciation on an individual basis, thereby bringing back the original purpose of a tip, which is to encourage and reward good service.

I bolded part of your post only to answer part of your question..

 

I personally don't feel that the HSC is enough to give those employees who have made our cruise so special, so we do give some of those special employees a thank you note with an added dollar amount..

 

Maybe it's because I was a hat check girl in a lovely local restaurant, when I began in the airline business.. I had to split my tips 50-50 with the Maitre d' of the restaurant.. he only reason I hat-checked was to get enough $$$ to take advantage of my free airline passes to go to Europe..:) Also worked in an ice cream parlor when I was in high school & really appreciated the tips..

 

Now you ask do I pay twice? Sometimes we do for instance: We were at a local Dinner theater last night, which was a Buffet.. However, a Waitress got our drinks, refilled our water & cleared the table after each course.. There is a card on the tables which states that the normal tip is $3.00 per person plus 18% of the bar bill.. Our tip consisted of the $3.00 per person but we paid 20% of the Bar bill which included the tax... So in effect we went over & above the suggested tip, because we thought it was worth it..

 

Only once did we not leave extra for our cabin Steward on a cruise & that was because we felt the service was not as good as expected, but we did leave the HSC on..

 

Years ago in Penzance (your beautiful country) a French Waiter embarrassed me at a restaurant, because I used the wrong fork for my appetizer.. He deliberately put the fork I used back next to my plate & took up the one I did not use.. He wanted to embarrass me! :(I was 22years old & in tears.. MY DH was so upset that he told me he would not leave a tip, but I begged him not to make a scene & leave a tip.. DH acquiesced & left a tip.. Now that I'm retired I would never leave a tip for poor service & never let a waiter make fun of me.. ;)

 

Holland does not give 100 pct of HSC to crew. They keep some for crew wellness and then they distribute the rest based on internal performance metrics. That's how all the lines do it

And you know this how?

[serendipity1499]

HAL states "If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

 

Unfortunately they fail to enforce the requirement of citing any specific instances of bad service, and let anyone cancel it for no better reason than they don't like it --- usually because they are cheapskates.

 

I would like to see it much harder to have the HSC removed: require a face-to-face meeting with the employee who gave "bad" service, and his/her supervisor so that the employee can look the skinflint in the eyes! Schedule all such meetings on the morning of debarkation, and if the waiting line is long enough, some of the cheapskates will give up and just get off the ship! :D

 

 

I agree... IMO HAL should not make it so easy for someone to remove or reduce the HSC..

[LMaxwell]

As I predicted, the not-so-new facet of the HSC argument comes forward as fodder for the debate.

 

Some believe the cruise lines nefariously collect and only minimally distribute the HSC to service providers, using this belief as the rationale for invoking their discretionary privilege to rescind the HSC from their account.

 

Others express the HSC is a money-grab that only lines the company's pocket or that the passenger shouldn't subsidize service provider wages in such an express way as a publicized HSC.

 

If any of the above was even minimally accurate, the model would fail both in the decisions of the service providers and masses of passengers to conduct themselves differently - not only for HAL but every other mass-market cruise line that incorporates such HSC in its fare structure.

1. Have never taken off HSC, DSC, auto grats, any term you wish to use.

 

2. Did not use word minimally anywhere.

 

Facts of the matter, bereft of your word play, are thus:

 

Cruise line collects HSC.

 

Cruise line keeps some for crew wellness (i call this wage theft).

 

Cruise line determines by its internal metrics for service how much to distribute and to whom.

 

I assert those 3 points are all accurate and correct

[LMaxwell]

HAL states "If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

 

Unfortunately they fail to enforce the requirement of citing any specific instances of bad service, and let anyone cancel it for no better reason than they don't like it --- usually because they are cheapskates.

 

I would like to see it much harder to have the HSC removed: require a face-to-face meeting with the employee who gave "bad" service, and his/her supervisor so that the employee can look the skinflint in the eyes! Schedule all such meetings on the morning of debarkation, and if the waiting line is long enough, some of the cheapskates will give up and just get off the ship! :D

 

What about the non cheapskates that get bad service but have a plane to catch?

[cruz chic]

HAL states "If our service exceeds or fails to meet your expectations, you are free to adjust this amount at the end of each segment and/or voyage."

 

Unfortunately they fail to enforce the requirement of citing any specific instances of bad service, and let anyone cancel it for no better reason than they don't like it --- usually because they are cheapskates.

 

I would like to see it much harder to have the HSC removed: require a face-to-face meeting with the employee who gave "bad" service, and his/her supervisor so that the employee can look the skinflint in the eyes! Schedule all such meetings on the morning of debarkation, and if the waiting line is long enough, some of the cheapskates will give up and just get off the ship! :D

 

I love the idea of a face to face meeting.