still confused

[Cruising-along]

cruising along....I could not agree more. I spent most of my entire senior management career in IT on the west coast.

 

Your comments are spot on with one slight difference for me. When I dealt with customers/execs for the east I would dress to their standards-suit and tie.

I found it to be the same within the industries that I interacted with-with the exception of banking/investment, law, and accounting.

 

In our business life and in our personal life we found substantial differences between norms of attire, business and casual, between east and west. This really surprised us when we moved to the west years ago.

 

I've noticed the differences also. Having lived most of my life on the west coast (except for 2 years), I wouldn't trade it for anything. :D

 

DS lives in LA and travels every few months to Montreal and Paris. He does like to dress up when expected, but his work environment is extremely casual.

[lahlah57]

I am not one to quibble about what one wears....but....please do not smell! This is where I draw the lline. If you are seated next to me and smell expect me to vomit in your lap!

Body odor is is so unecessary!

[POA1]

By the way-- the dress code for many corporate environments is going through the same adaptation as formal night dressing. Many industries, particularly in high tech, put very little emphasis on wearing a suit & tie. The person running the show probably won't have a tie to loosen. If you show up for an interview looking like you are auditioning for an episode of Mad Men, you'll be considered downright weird. Stove Jobs' uniform was jeans and a black T-shirt.

 

Leaving out the deceased billionaire Apple founder - who, let's face it, got to dress however he wanted by virtue of being a billionaire founder and chief executive - the fact is that are some pretty well-defined regional standards of dress in the tech field. There are some markets where you won't be taken seriously if you show up in black jeans and a black turtleneck. (Unless you're Steve Jobs. And, if you are, no one care what you're wearing because you're back from the freakin' dead.)

 

If you are in the tech field, and you travel on business regularly, you probably have a cheat sheet on how to dress for all the places you do business. For example, there are certain places where one should never where a short sleeved dress shirt. There are other places where long sleeves in summer show that you don't belong. I, for one, miss the good old days of standard dress codes. It made things so much easier.

[IFlyHarder]

I tend to care more about the book and less about the cover.

[cruz chic]

Leaving out the deceased billionaire Apple founder - who, let's face it, got to dress however he wanted by virtue of being a billionaire founder and chief executive - the fact is that are some pretty well-defined regional standards of dress in the tech field. There are some markets where you won't be taken seriously if you show up in black jeans and a black turtleneck. (Unless you're Steve Jobs. And, if you are, no one care what you're wearing because you're back from the freakin' dead.)

 

If you are in the tech field, and you travel on business regularly, you probably have a cheat sheet on how to dress for all the places you do business. For example, there are certain places where one should never where a short sleeved dress shirt. There are other places where long sleeves in summer show that you don't belong. I, for one, miss the good old days of standard dress codes. It made things so much easier.

 

I miss that too. I always wore a blazer and pants to work, with a blouse or dressy tank underneath. Some people come to work in yoga pants and hoodies. That is not smart casual but clearly some struggle with that. Some get it, some don't.

[Fouremco]

<snip>

I, for one, miss the good old days of standard dress codes. It made things so much easier.

Hmmm, I don't think standard dress codes have ever been static. Among polite company, a tuxedo was once considered too informal for dinner. Whenever reading the many CC threads on dress, I'm reminded of this excerpt from Ken Follett's Fall of Giants:

 

Fitz returned to his dressing room. Some men had abandoned tailcoats and white ties, and wore short tuxedo jackets and black ties at dinner, citing the war as their excuse. Fitz did not see the connection. Why should war oblige people to dress informally?

[IFlyHarder]

I miss hoop skirts on ladies. When did standards become so relaxed?

[RuthC]

I miss hoop skirts on ladies. When did standards become so relaxed?

If you ever tried sitting down while wearing a hoop skirt, you would understand. ;)

[qsuzi]

If you ever tried sitting down while wearing a hoop skirt, you would understand. ;)

 

What a visualization. :D

[IFlyHarder]

So fashion choices should be dictated by comfort? I miss the old days when people were more considerate of others at their own expense.

[zerbot]

If you are in the tech field, and you travel on business regularly, you probably have a cheat sheet on how to dress for all the places you do business. For example, there are certain places where one should never where a short sleeved dress shirt. There are other places where long sleeves in summer show that you don't belong. I, for one, miss the good old days of standard dress codes. It made things so much easier.

 

I suspect making it harder is actually the point. A large part of "dress codes" is making it so the "riff-raff" couldn't pass themselves off as "quality people". Tuxes, suits and ties, etc., all that stuff cost a lot of money, which served to enforce class stratification. With modern manufacturing, you can buy a complete tux ensemble for less than $100 these days. Of course, it won't be terribly good quality, but it will pass the dress codes. Same with a suit.

 

Designer labels did a stand in for the expense of the materials that made up a tux or suit and tie for awhile, but with cheap knockoffs, the value of the "dress code" is devalued once again. Nowadays you can either pay someone to tell you what the "way to dress" of the moment is or you invest a lot of time in keeping up with it yourself. There are places that will sell you a complete prepackaged set of clothing to "blend in" to various situations. Of course, you're expected to both "blend in" and "stand out" (but not in certain ways, of course). Confused yet? Just spend a lot of money with your personal fashion consultant, and then be prepared to spend it again when what you just bought isn't fashionable anymore.

 

Or, you can just throw all that out the door, and enjoy people watching those who choose the carousel ride of modern fashion. :p

[cruz chic]

If you ever tried sitting down while wearing a hoop skirt, you would understand. ;)

 

This made me laugh:D. I had one under my wedding dress 27 years ago. My friend was trying to get me in the back of an old car. We had a good laugh at trying to keep the dress down. Things have certainly changed.

Edited June 28, 2015 by cruz chic

[KruzPrincess]

I owe you an apology. I didn't realize that the website had a page that redefined "formal." (Yes, I know you provided a link. Yes, I should have read it. My bad.)

 

It's still a little weird that they have website information that conflicts with the policy information - also on the website.

 

Also, how do you know when an "event" breaks out? If dining is an event, shouldn't a show also be an event? Is it a number of attendees? A particular venue? Let's say that you're watching BB King. If the Queen's Lounge is only half full, is that below the event threshold? If it's packed, does the dress code go into affect? If you're watching a set in a half empty room and a crowd rolls in, do you have to scoot back to your stateroom and don your finery?

 

It's all so confusing. I think I'd rather just get dressed and stay dressed.

 

This is the crux of the problem. They offer casual dining options, but no casual entertainment options. Are the people who choose to eat in the buffet go to their cabin for the rest of the night? Can you dress smart casual in a specialty restaurant on formal night? If yes, then it's OK for you to dress down and pay for your dinner in a specialty venue, but you can't go to see a show? There's a very murky line here. HAL is making a request for people to observe the dress guidelines, but they really don't care if you do. It's just talk. They want you out buying drinks. They would rather have you spending money in venues than staying in your cabin.

 

 

I tend to care more about the book and less about the cover.

 

Ditto that.

 

And, as far as smart casual people who don't bathe.... I suspect the percentage of people who have bad personal hygiene is the same for people wearing "formal" clothes and those not. It's just a fact of life that some people have poor hygiene.

[IFlyHarder]

Since everyone might have a different idea of what looks appropriate, or nasty, or ugly, maybe it's better to focus on things like manners, kindness, and being considerate.

I'd rather be around someone dressed "down" or who is wearing ill-fitting clothes but who is respectful and friendly than someone in fancy clothes but is busy pointing out the clothing flaws of others.

But like I said earlier, I tend to find the book more important than the cover.

[cruz chic]

This is the crux of the problem. They offer casual dining options, but no casual entertainment options. Are the people who choose to eat in the buffet go to their cabin for the rest of the night? Can you dress smart casual in a specialty restaurant on formal night? If yes, then it's OK for you to dress down and pay for your dinner in a specialty venue, but you can't go to see a show? There's a very murky line here. HAL is making a request for people to observe the dress guidelines, but they really don't care if you do. It's just talk. They want you out buying drinks. They would rather have you spending money in venues than staying in your cabin.

 

 

 

 

Ditto that.

 

And, as far as smart casual people who don't bathe.... I suspect the percentage of people who have bad personal hygiene is the same for people wearing "formal" clothes and those not. It's just a fact of life that some people have poor hygiene.

 

No, you can't go to a specialty restarant except canaletto without formal dress.

[qsuzi]

This is the crux of the problem. They offer casual dining options, but no casual entertainment options. Are the people who choose to eat in the buffet go to their cabin for the rest of the night? Can you dress smart casual in a specialty restaurant on formal night? If yes, then it's OK for you to dress down and pay for your dinner in a specialty venue, but you can't go to see a show? There's a very murky line here. HAL is making a request for people to observe the dress guidelines, but they really don't care if you do. It's just talk. They want you out buying drinks. They would rather have you spending money in venues than staying in your cabin.

 

While we read this board and other sources who touted the written standards, can you imagine our surprise when DH found he was the only man in a full suit (jacket, tie, slacks) in the Pinnacle Grill on a Formal Night (our first/last HAL cruise on the Veendam). It really does send a mixed message and there is a very murky line and HAL trying to please everyone. Change is a part of life and dress standards are getting less formal. We saw no tie and no jacket but nice slacks and generally a dress shirt. Okay with us but just a surprise.

Edited June 28, 2015 by qsuzi

[cruz chic]

But do you disagree with my point?

 

I'm having a hard time understanding what your point is. I dress formally and not just a sparkly top. I bring both long and short dresses. Formal nights used to be special on hal. On my last cruise I found the food to be a huge letdown. I'd be ok if they ended formal nights because the food is so mediocre. That said I do tend to dress better than the situation dictates on a day to day basis.

[Tante Amalie]

I guess I'm not a big fan of intolerance. That goes for how much they weigh, what religion they practice, the color of their skin, or any other external characteristic. I tried to teach my children that if you pre-judge somebody by some superficial criterion, you may miss meeting your next great friend. That person next to you at formal night who doesn't wear a tie might actually be a very interesting and wonderful person, but I guess you'll never know.

 

Steve Jobs dressed without ties WAY before he was a billionaire. Perhaps he even had the temerity to show up for a job interview dressed that way. The small minded individual who dismissed him as someone who doesn't know how to dress probably passed on hiring one of the most brilliant minds of our generation.

 

At least they protected the dress code.

[lahlah57]

I miss hoop skirts on ladies. When did standards become so relaxed?

 

Lol! You didn't mention bustles;)

[IFlyHarder]

Lol! You didn't mention bustles;)

 

OK, I had to look that up!

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