Silversea Water Cooler: Welcome! Part Two

[TLCOhio]

I have friends who've recently returned to France after living in Holland for 15 years, they're telling me the same. The Dutch want a vote of their own.

 

les37b: I keep reading comments written by 18 to 24 year olds and on behalf of then moaning grey haired people have ruined their lives. I know the figure of those who bothered to vote were in the majority to stay at 72%. However it's wrong to claim 72% of 18 to 24 year olds voted remain since only 43% of this age group thought it important enough to put their X on the ballot paper. In truth' date=' less than 30% of this age group voted to remain. [b']78% of those over 65 voted[/b].....

 

dealing with those voting from Vatican City in Rome. Mark_K: 77' date='000 votes from a place with less than a thousand residents. Reminiscent of an election in Chicago. [/quote']

 

Lots of coverage today here in the USA and around the world about the June 23 UK vote on the EU, etc. Of special interest to me was the comments written by Boris Johnson in the London Telegraph today. The former London Mayor and maybe next Prime Minister seemed to be saying . . . don't worry, no rush, things will all work out fine, etc.

 

From the New York Times in the past week, below are two article items that might be of interest:

 

With a headline today of "Economic Panic Rising, Britain Hopes to Stay in E.U. Market", this story had this highlight: "Prime Minister David Cameron and the former London mayor Boris Johnson, who were on opposite sides of the debate over Britain’s membership in the 28-nation bloc, both signaled on Monday that they hoped Britain could, while leaving the European Union, somehow maintain access to its signature achievement: the world’s largest common market." This NY Times story cited items from this Telegraph opinion piece by Johnson with these details for how he is trying to assure Britons on Monday that their country “is part of Europe, and always will be,” pledging that changes “will not come in any great rush,” and promising a Britain “rebooted, reset, renewed and able to engage with the whole world.”

 

But, last week, the NY Times published a detailed op-ed piece by long-time London Times writer Martin Fletcher. This author, as I re-call, has been a frequent and smart poster here on these Cruise Critic boards. Here was that column headline: "Who Is to Blame for Brexit’s Appeal? British Newspapers". Much of Mr. Fletcher's opinion piece was going after Boris Johnson and his approach/style/manner, etc. Here are a few highlights for what he wrote on Boris: "For decades, British newspapers have offered their readers an endless stream of biased, misleading and downright fallacious stories about Brussels. And the journalist who helped set the tone — long before he became the mayor of London or the face of the pro-Brexit campaign — was Boris Johnson."

 

So, what is the "rest of the story" on Boris Johnson? What is with his current "toned-down" comments this week? Does Boris have that much of a chance for being the next PM?

 

Look forward to learning more from the smart UK folks at this Cooler!!

 

Full NY Times items cited above at:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/28/world/europe/boris-johnson-brexit.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/opinion/who-is-to-blame-for-brexits-appeal-british-newspapers.html

 

Sorry for Jeff, but I am not skilled to answer your questions about brush cutters.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

For details and visuals, etc., from our July 1-16, 2010, Norway Coast/Fjords/Arctic Circle cruise experience from Copenhagen on the Silver Cloud, check out this posting. This posting is now at 199,724 views.

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1227923

[MrOscarH]

The English football team performing according to voters' wishes, I see :)

[Fletcher]

But, last week, the NY Times published a detailed op-ed piece by long-time London Times writer Martin Fletcher. This author, as I re-call, has been a frequent and smart poster here on these Cruise Critic boards.

 

Terry - While I have been frequent and smart I am not that Fletcher, though in a past life and under my real name I have contributed to many UK newspapers, including The Times.

 

Bon voyage! Sorry, that's French.

[les37b]

Another enjoyable visit to see Silver wind at Dartford last night.

 

Only 2 more visits left this summer. (Did I really just describe our current weather as summer!)

 

Will edit footage and upload when I get the chance.... Which includes a fairly close flyover.

 

[les37b]

Congratulations to Iceland and best wishes to them against France in the Quarter Finals of the European Championships.

 

No sour grapes (they deserved to win IMHO) and no calls to play the game again because the result didn't go our way either.

 

Cameron facing the EU in Brussels jolly today and Juncker has forbidden any EU member state to speak to the UK on any brexit related matter. Talking of sour grapes......!!!

 

This is the man who spoke about the Greek Crisis last year ... "When it becomes serious, you have to lie." I wish him all the best. :D

[UKCruiseJeff]

Good Morning Coolers!

 

Quite right Les. The EU is at a crossroads and I fear they will take the wrong option that might save the EU.

 

Option 1: Make an example of the UK and "punish us". This might temporarily make other citizens think twice of leaving. But it will build up even more pent up anti EU feelings and it will sow the seeds wider.

 

Option 2: Smell the coffee. State that the EU is going to respond to the clear sentiments of both the UK and other citizens and suspend and revert under member state sovereignty "the free movement of citizens" until a permanent solution is agreed. And agree a sensible new agreement with the UK. This will extend the life of the EU and take some of the heat out of the wheight of anti EU senjtiment.

 

Guess which one they take .....:rolleyes:

 

I really hope that Angela Leadsom throws her hat into the ring! She is a vey impressive lady and I think will be a good leader or at worst a decent chancellor if Boris becomes leader and Osborne goes to the Foreign office. Farage is just stood up to talk at the EU with boos to greet him "The british people have rejected big government for freedom and democracy and will not be the last to leave the EU" .... he has accused them of all being in denial. Je jas asked for a "grown up" exit. You should listen to him ....:D

 

Anyway ....

 

A lovely sunny morning here in the UK and I have mairnaded a tandoori chicken for us to have with salad today. Last night one of our infra red security cameras picked up a bat! :)

 

Jeff

 

[les37b]

I just spoke to the missus who said that Farage hadn't done us any favours - even though his comments on a personal level must have been satisfying and give him a warm smug feeling to say what he did. "When I first spoke in the EU parliament 17 years ago, I told you that I would campaign to leave the EU and you all laughed at me..... Who's laughing now"

 

As you said Jeff, we need to be able to negotiate whats best and I suspect that wont happen. The uncertainties are being made worse by Juncker dictating that no member state to speak to the UK and exclude us from talks whilst we are still full members.

 

I guess Juncker would be happy with the treaty to leave be presented, and everyone in the EU and UK suffer because no agreement is reached and we leave in 2 years without any settlement.

 

In the meantime, Jeremy Hunt has called for a further referendum to decide on the terms of the exit that Cameron suceeds to get. He also said he is thinking of standing to replace Cameron. He doesn't sound to be a good choice if he doesnt understand that he can only negotiate once the formal request has been made. Maybe he should have a chat with Juncker about his silly he's being and only fueling further resentment that the whole world can see and who it is that's being unreasonable.

 

Meantime, Gibraltar and Scotland are to speak to the EU to request they continue with the UKs membership. Good luck with that, they don't want to talk to anyone about brexit - its forbidden don't you know! lol

[UKCruiseJeff]

Les, this morning both Scottish and Sinn Fein MEPs called on the EU emergency debate that they continue to be members of the EU independently to a standing ovation from much of the rest of the asembly.

 

Farage really got the note completely wrong. It was designed to put their backs up. Diane Dodds of the DUP and Jeannine Hennis-Plasshaert got the tone right. The ememrgency debate was short and unsweet.

 

Evidently factions still consider that wanting democracy and wishing to continue mututally beneficial trading is "cherry picking".

 

No one much has been talking about some of possible workaround options under EEA status. We'll see. Onwards and downwards. :(

 

Jeff

[les37b]

Les, this morning both Scottish and Sinn Fein MEPs called on the EU emergency debate that they continue to be members of the EU independently to a standing ovation from much of the rest of the asembly.

 

Farage really got the note completely wrong. It was designed to put their backs up. Diane Dodds of the DUP and Jeannine Hennis-Plasshaert got the tone right. The ememrgency debate was short and unsweet.

 

Evidently factions still consider that wanting democracy and wishing to continue mututally beneficial trading is "cherry picking".

 

No one much has been talking about some of possible workaround options under EEA status. We'll see. Onwards and downwards. :(

 

Jeff

 

With friends like them, who needs enemies.

 

If they don't wish to strike a trade agreement which doesn't include an instruction we need to take migrants we dont want, then we dont get a trade agreement and everybody loses.

 

When the far right in France gets elected at the next election, France won't be far behind. They really don't get what they are fueling!

 

Hollande declares there will be consequences! He's not wrong!

 

Holland (the country) will be next I think. MEP's might be smug in their chambers that project assimilation is full steam ahead, I think they underestimate feelings that enough is enough.

[les37b]

Farage really got the note completely wrong. It was designed to put their backs up. Diane Dodds of the DUP and Jeannine Hennis-Plasshaert got the tone right. The ememrgency debate was short and unsweet.

 

If you dont want a mad dog to bite you, you dont poke it with a stick. Farage is an idiot and needs to be sidelined.

 

You are correct about Diane Dodds. Just read what she'd said and its difficult not to agree!

[MJN1]

Only now catching up with all the emotional flaming for simply pointing out that (any) postings needs to be taken with a grain of salt....

 

If Travelcat is still looking for info she can't find in her local news, she may want to browse the back-issues of the Daily Mail. :D

She may also be interested what a correspondent of The Times wrote last week in the International New York Times (the link is safe)....

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/opinion/who-is-to-blame-for-brexits-appeal-british-newspapers.html

 

On the question re my POV: while I disagree with the "rationale" and outcome, I am glad the vote was to leave. If the vote was to stay, the debate would have continued. Now, at least we will see in a few years who was right.... (also apparently one could see already on Friday that the millions which are being paid weekly from the UK to the EU are no longer available to be pumped into the NHS as originally promised) :rolleyes:

[les37b]

Emotional flaming? Good grief. Thanks for confirming your POV. It's actually what I thought it would be. And I agree, lets see what happens in a few years.

[UKCruiseJeff]

Only now catching up with all the emotional flaming for simply pointing out that (any) postings needs to be taken with a grain of salt....

 

Now, at least we will see in a few years who was right.... (also apparently one could see already on Friday that the millions which are being paid weekly from the UK to the EU are no longer available to be pumped into the NHS as originally promised) :rolleyes:

 

Actually, your memory has been a touch selective and you said rather more than you recall ... you were quite rude weren't you. And you weren't flamed, you were simply asked to be more specific so you could receive response, which you haven't, have you. :D

 

 

Travelcat,

I would take a lot of the "facts" posted here by otherwise very sensible and well educated people with a grain of salt. The Donald Trump like distortion of facts is mindboggling....

 

Happily buying bananas single, in twos or bunches of three, four and more, plugging in haidryer in the bathroom and able to step on a ladder alone without hard hat, safety glasses and shoes to screw in a warm shining light bulb.....

 

I posted some examples of laws you implied didn't exist.

 

I think to be honest you are doing what a lot of people who supported remain choose to do. You are under-estimating the intelligence of the British public who voted to leave and charecterise them as being rather stupid, dumbed and conned. That was sadly the tactics of the remainers during the debate phase and hardened the leavers, anbd that is what they are doing now it's over.

 

I don't think anyone said that £350m per week would go into the NHS, and if you think they did, I don't think anyone would believe that to be true. What was said at the time and has been repeated .... perhaps you haven't undersood it .... the promise was that any cash saved could be spent in the way that the democraticaly appointed UK government choose to spend it including more on the NHS.

 

To be honest your post is simply more of the same which is a bit dissapointing. I hope you change your mind and show a bit more respect to those that voted differently to what you though we should have done.

 

:)

 

Jeff

Edited June 28, 2016 by UKCruiseJeff

[UKCruiseJeff]

With friends like them, who needs enemies.

 

If they don't wish to strike a trade agreement which doesn't include an instruction we need to take migrants we dont want, then we dont get a trade agreement and everybody loses.

 

When the far right in France gets elected at the next election, France won't be far behind. They really don't get what they are fueling!

 

Hollande declares there will be consequences! He's not wrong!

 

Holland (the country) will be next I think. MEP's might be smug in their chambers that project assimilation is full steam ahead, I think they underestimate feelings that enough is enough.

 

Basically although all of the EU agreements take place with a lot of discussion before the formal periods commence, the British people are being told to go and stand in the naughty corner for disobeying teacher and that we can come out when we repent, at which point we will receive our punishment. This will play out well to those that are totally out of touch within the EU plutocratic bubble, but amongst ordinary people in the EU it will look bad.

 

When our good friends like the Dutch for example are told that us Brits love Gouda and Edam, but we are not allowed to negotiate buying it, or to directly trade with them without paying what the Sopranos would say "tax" to the EU and accept them telling us "how we can live" then the penny will drop.

 

In fact it is more like the Soproanos the more we see of it. A weekly "tax" and being told how we must live in order to "simply do business". A trade "protection racket". :D

 

Jeff

[TLCOhio]

Terry - While I have been frequent and smart I am not that Fletcher, though in a past life and under my real name I have contributed to many UK newspapers, including The Times. Bon voyage! Sorry, that's French.

 

UKCruiseJeff: Quite right Les. The EU is at a crossroads and I fear they will take the wrong option that might save the EU.

Option 1: Make an example of the UK and "punish us". This might temporarily make other citizens think twice of leaving. But it will build up even more pent up anti EU feelings and it will sow the seeds wider.

Option 2: Smell the coffee. State that the EU is going to respond to the clear sentiments of both the UK and other citizens and suspend and revert under member state sovereignty "the free movement of citizens" until a permanent solution is agreed. And agree a sensible new agreement with the UK. This will extend the life of the EU and take some of the heat out of the wheight of anti EU sentiment. Guess which one they take

 

Appreciate this follow-up by our CC Board Fletcher versus the other writer who has done work with both the Times in London and NY. Still looking for more insights' date=' details and/or predictions as to what will happen with [b']Boris Johnson[/b] and the upcoming "shifts" among the leadership in the UK.

 

Excellent above summary/comments by Jeff on the options being considered by the EU as to how all of these issues/challenges work and play out for Europe and their nations. These fiscal, immigration, etc., issues will not go away and/or be forgotten. Then, there is Putin and Russia watching these divides with interest and waiting to play their "next cards".

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

If Venice is one of your future desires or past favorites, look at this earlier posting for many options and visual samples this city that is so great for "walking around", personally seeing its great history and architecture. This posting is now at 60,867 views.

Venice: Loving It & Why??!!

http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=1278226

[UKCruiseJeff]

Terry,

 

I'm sorry ... my note wasn't clear enough.

 

The EU are not considering two options. I said there were two options.

 

They have chosen option 1.

 

Jeff

[TLCOhio]

Terry, I'm sorry ... my note wasn't clear enough. The EU are not considering two options. I said there were two options.

They have chosen option 1.

Jeff

 

Appreciate, Jeff, this clarification. Really helps to understand more of what will be happening and especially as to the reasons for . . . WHY.

 

Agree with you, that it not that smart to do:

Option 1: Make an example of the UK and "punish us". This might temporarily make other citizens think twice of leaving. But it will build up even more pent up anti EU feelings and it will sow the seeds wider.

 

BUT, I can see why certain EU powers are taking this type of punishing approach in order to try to keep other Europe nations in line and within their current "club". Long-term, however, much of Europe still faces huge demographic, economic and cost challenges to fund their existing and unsustainable social/welfare system. And, the Russian "Bear" is sitting there and waiting for the right time to take advantage of this disarray.

 

THANKS! Enjoy! Terry in Ohio

 

From our Jan. 25-Feb. 20, 2015, Amazon River-Caribbean combo sailing over 26 days that started in Barbados, here is the link below to that live/blog. Lots of great visuals from this amazing Brazil river and these various Caribbean Islands (Dutch ABC's, St. Barts, Dominica, Grenada, etc.) that we experienced. Check it out at:

http://www.boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?t=2157696

Now at 40,119 views for these postings.

[UKCruiseJeff]

BUT, I can see why certain EU powers are taking this type of punishing approach in order to try to keep other Europe nations in line and within their current "club". Long-term, however, much of Europe still faces huge demographic, economic and cost challenges to fund their existing and unsustainable social/welfare system. And, the Russian "Bear" is sitting there and waiting for the right time to take advantage of this disarray.

 

 

Terry,

 

I know you have agreat interest in this issues, but none of this has anything to do with Russia. :confused:

 

The very sad outcome of this is that the hubris of the EU has led not only to the probable long-term break up of the EU but has triggered a possibly damaging effect on UK unity.

 

The SNP for example will use these issues to have another go at breaking up the UK as it's leaders basically hate the English. We have a party that essentially hates being a part of the UK and even though it has enormous autonomy considering how far it is subsidised, it doesn't want to be "ruled" by London, over which it has considerable authority and autonomy, it instead wishes to leave and be "ruled" by the EU over which it will have far less autonomy or authority. It is simply swapping it's subsidiarity to another legislature.

 

It has also taken years to bring peace to Northenr Ireland and this EU issue has now reawakened rifts there that all sides had previously brought peaceful solutions to.

 

What is another complexity to this is that a British PM (as far as I understand it) cannot trigger article 50 ie the notice of divorce, without an act of parliament. Our PM does not I beleive have that authority. Our MPs are currently against passing such an act.

 

Finally, for what it is worth .... and this is only my opinion. The margin a few days ago was less than 4%. That basically means that if less than 2% were to change their mind the result would be different today. I believe it quite possible that more than 2% could have changed their mind. So how do we cope with that notion today and in the future if my instinct is correct. Is it fair to remainers that we plough on over such an issue? And what then if it were only 2% the other way? It is technically correct to proceed, but it doesn't seem 100% right morally, even though I would vote the same again. It is a terribly divisive and to me morally insolvable problem.

 

In the final analysis, the Brexiters are being blamed for all this by those that disagree. What we should have all been doing instead is blaming those in the EU that took us too far along a path and those in national governments who allowed it, of a regime that we had never approved of or agreed to and against our will in the first place and it's failure to respond and adjust to the inevitable.

 

Anyway .....

 

Jeff

Edited June 28, 2016 by UKCruiseJeff
ipad spelling

[mjnvoyager]

Terry, you asked about opinions on the leadership of the Conservative Party. Boris has been announced in the media as the front runner. Although he is popular in the country he is not amongst MPs. The party has a habit of rarely electing the favourite at the beginning. The probable other candidate is Theresa May, our current Home Secretary. She kept a very low profile during the campaign but was officially for Remain. I may have a very suspicious mind but wonder if she was asked to do this in preparation for this very scenario. There is support beginning to build for her in the country. The last two surviving the initial votes by the MPs are subjected to a vote of all party members. My instinct at the moment is that she will emerge the winner and will give Boris and Gove major cabinet posts. There are several other MPs considering standing and I think the only other possible with a chance of success is Dr Liam Fox. At the moment we are still waiting to see who will declare.

 

Have to say that the result has divided the country. In my own family our children who live in Australia and Dubai (!!!) voted in and the two in England voted out. The ones abroad are not happy with us. We are about to have a family holiday altogether to celebrate our Golden Wedding and have banned Referendum talk.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[UKCruiseJeff]

MJN,

 

I almost entirely agree with you except in nuance.

 

Boris is extremely popular in the UK in the sense that people like him. I'm not certain that all those that like him and that might entrust him with London, would feel the same about voting Conservative if he were leader and a prospective Prime Minister.

 

On the other hand May is mistrusted because many feel that she didn't play an honest hand and state what she genuinely felt in brexit, in pure self-interest so she isn't completely trusted.

 

In the end these things are far to close to call and no one knows. It is a shame that Cameron decided to tell his closest that "Someone else could look after this s**t" and left so quickly without considering other options first.

 

Jeff

[Travelcat2]

Only now catching up with all the emotional flaming for simply pointing out that (any) postings needs to be taken with a grain of salt....

 

If Travelcat is still looking for info she can't find in her local news, she may want to browse the back-issues of the Daily Mail. :D

She may also be interested what a correspondent of The Times wrote last week in the International New York Times (the link is safe)....

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/06/22/opinion/who-is-to-blame-for-brexits-appeal-british-newspapers.html

 

On the question re my POV: while I disagree with the "rationale" and outcome, I am glad the vote was to leave. If the vote was to stay, the debate would have continued. Now, at least we will see in a few years who was right.... (also apparently one could see already on Friday that the millions which are being paid weekly from the UK to the EU are no longer available to be pumped into the NHS as originally promised) :rolleyes:

 

Thank you so much for the link! I am still reading this thread but am trying not to comment too much. While I realize that what I am reading here are personal opinions and viewpoints, I would rather read this and draw my own conclusions than read the rubbish put out by many news sources.

[UKCruiseJeff]

 

[mjnvoyager]

That actually looks both delicious and healthy!

Jane

[Travelcat2]

That photo makes me very hungry! Looks delicious -- thanks for posting a food photo -- it makes my day (which wasn't terribly exciting to begin with):D

[les37b]

It's good fun taking food photos!

 

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