Will Turkey be Dropped? Another bombing.

[MicCanberra]

Perhaps I should have been clearer.

 

I was referring to the dismissal that those concerned about visiting Turkey were needlessly concerned and that perhaps some of the bravado was a little misplaced. Cruise ships go to (primarily) two places in Turkey, Ephesus and Istanbul. IMHO Ephesus appears to be relatively safe but Istanbul less so and most likely to become more unsafe as the conditions and irritants that have caused it to become less safe are still present and likely to escalate.

 

Yes the latest attack was in Ankara as was another but there have been two attacks in tourist areas of Istanbul in the last 6 months or so. One at the palace on the other side of the Bosphorus ie not Topkapi (whose name escapes me). The other at the Hippodrome which is in the same area that contains Blue Mosque, Hagia Sophia, The Cistern, The Grand Bazzaar, Topkapi Palace, The Spice Market etc.

 

I am sure there have been random violent incidences in the US but perhaps not 2 in the past 6 months in the same place that has an increased probability of there being more. If there had been two such incidents in NYC in that period with the root cause still being in play then perhaps it may cause you to take pause about visiting there. I am just saying that there is a higher probability that you are likely to become a victim if you are in Istanbul than in any random spot in the US. Although I would judge (as someone pointed out) that Israel is even more likely.

 

Having said that, I personally would revisit Istanbul and indeed other parts of Turkey (excepting maybe Ankara and definitely the border area) but my wife would not. If I did visit Istanbul I would recognise that there is a higher risk and act accordingly. That would be sensible. IMHO in Ankara the likelihood is that tourists would be collateral damage rather than the target but in Istanbul tourists are likely the target.

 

Sorry I can't play longer but I have to go and prepare for a possible cyclone. :eek:

 

Hope you can get trough safely and without any damage to property as well.:D

[faymuiheng]

What a shame, Kusadasi and Ephesus was one of the highlights of our cruise OCT 2015. Clean and beautiful

[Lovely_Star]

Istanbul and Ephesus, both ports frequented by Celebrity cruises, are not within the Travel Warning Area issued by the US Department of State. That area is in South Eastern Turkey along the Syrian boarder.

 

The link below will take you to the most recent warning issued by the USDOS on February 4th. If you click on the reference map, you will see Istanbul and Ismir (adjacent to Ephesis) are not in the warning area.

 

https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/alertswarnings/turkey-travel-warning.html

 

To put terrorist bombings in perspective, you have an extremely small chance of being killed in such an attack. The percentages are much, much higher of you being killed by some other unpredictable event.

 

http://pressfortruth.ca/top-stories/what-are-your-chances-being-killed-terrorist-attack/

 

Don't get me wrong. Travel can be dangerous. Turkey can be dangerous and that it shares a boarder with Syria, the risks might increase if traveling there.

 

I would add that the target of yesterday's bombing in Ankara was a military one. Did Turkish forces just shell a Kurdish military unit engaged in fighting ISIS in Syria? Yes? Connect the dots. This bombing was very likely Kurdish retaliation for the shelling.

 

The Kurds are a thorn in Turkish President Erdogen's side. There is a lot of tension between Erdogen and the Kurds who want an independent state and this has been going on for decades. There has been speculation that the bombing last October in Ankara may have been organized and carried out by elements sympathetic to Erdogen's policies and opposed to that of the Kurds. In other words it was meant to stir up Turkish support for Erdogen and dislike for the Kurds.

 

Worse things have happened in this complicated world. It is right to be cautious when traveling in it but fearful enough to avoid traveling all together, even in areas that might have a slightly elevated risk? That's for you to decide when you have some facts at hand upon which to base your decision.

 

Thanks for the links

[MicCanberra]

What a shame, Kusadasi and Ephesus was one of the highlights of our cruise OCT 2015. Clean and beautiful

 

I am still hopeful we will get there.:D

[sleepless]

Using that logic, I would never visit the US, given the rampant gun violence, home grown terrorists, and the foreign terrorist threat.

Yet somehow, no one ever brings that up around here after a particular violent act. Should we have stopped cruising from the West coast due to the San Bernardino violence? Perhaps have dropped the East coast after the Boston bombings, the chopping of police officers in New York, 9/11, the sniper shootings in DC and surrounding areas, Ft Hood, and so on... Yet somehow, the US keeps encouraging visitors to keep coming, that somehow it's a one-off event, etc... I would think we could extend the same view to other overseas areas.

Everyone has to evaluate their own safety and risk tolerance. Obviously we shouldn't put ourselves in specific harm's way if we can help it, ie I wouldn't be touring Syria just now, but I also won't be writing off an entire area for violence that is hundreds of miles away, just as I don't write off the entire US due to the violence there.

 

 

Well, I do have to respond to this. I live outside of Detroit, Michigan. In fact, in a different county. However, I will not visit Detroit. Daily shootings within the city. And random, frequent car hijackings at gas stations. The closest I will get to Detroit is passing through on the expressway.

 

That being said, I feel I am less likely to be involved in a political terrorist bombing, then I am being harmed by stray bullets or a hijacking while hanging out on the West Side of Detroit.

 

Find your risk tolerance, and pay attention to what is going around you.

[GerScot]

We are due to visit the 2 remaining Turkish ports on the reflection in April and I am still keen to visit, however if it is not going to happen I do wish Celebrity would come out and say so NOW so we can plan accordingly.

[4774Papa]

Perhaps I should have been clearer.

 

I was referring to the dismissal that those concerned about visiting Turkey were needlessly concerned and that perhaps some of the bravado was a little misplaced. Cruise ships go to (primarily) two places in Turkey, Ephesus and Istanbul. IMHO Ephesus appears to be relatively safe but Istanbul less so and most likely to become more unsafe as the conditions and irritants that have caused it to become less safe are still present and likely to escalate.

 

Yes the latest attack was in Ankara as was another but there have been two attacks in tourist areas of Istanbul in the last 6 months or so. One at the palace on the other side of the Bosphorus ie not Topkapi (whose name escapes me). The other at the Hippodrome which is in the same area that contains Blue Mosque, Hagia Sophia, The Cistern, The Grand Bazzaar, Topkapi Palace, The Spice Market etc.

 

I am sure there have been random violent incidences in the US but perhaps not 2 in the past 6 months in the same place that has an increased probability of there being more. If there had been two such incidents in NYC in that period with the root cause still being in play then perhaps it may cause you to take pause about visiting there. I am just saying that there is a higher probability that you are likely to become a victim if you are in Istanbul than in any random spot in the US. Although I would judge (as someone pointed out) that Israel is even more likely.

 

Having said that, I personally would revisit Istanbul and indeed other parts of Turkey (excepting maybe Ankara and definitely the border area) but my wife would not. If I did visit Istanbul I would recognise that there is a higher risk and act accordingly. That would be sensible. IMHO in Ankara the likelihood is that tourists would be collateral damage rather than the target but in Istanbul tourists are likely the target.

 

Sorry I can't play longer but I have to go and prepare for a possible cyclone. :eek:

 

Lots of great comments on this thread.

I generally agree that visiting Istanbul and Ephesus is a viable option, although the risk of a terror attack on tourist is higher.

Unfortunately, Egypt is a good example where the terrorist have been targeting tourists. After a massacre at the Tomb of Queen Hatshepsut in the 90s the Egyptian government started a program to provide armed guards to escort tourist in the country. That worked reasonably well until the radicals actually were elected to control the country. Then attacks on Christians and churches began. Then the military kicked out the radicals and the country is back on track, but the terrorist are still targeting tourists. Remember the Russian aircraft that exploded over the Sinai desert.

 

It is still risky to visit Egypt, probably more than Turkey. However, there are many refugees from Syria and Iraq in Turkey and likely quite a few seeded by ISIS.

Once they start targeting tourists (to hurt the government through the economy) safety for tourist will be more problematic.

 

Currently, it doesn't appear that wholesale targeting of tourists in Turkey is going on. Still, some caution is called for by tourists.

 

As for the Kurds, that is a complex issue, since 1/5 of the Turkish population is Kurdish. The vast majority of Kurds are not opposed to the government and attacks on the government by Kurdish rebels is far less than it has been in the past.

[nordski]

Lots of great comments on this thread.

I generally agree that visiting Istanbul and Ephesus is a viable option, although the risk of a terror attack on tourist is higher.

 

 

As for the Kurds, that is a complex issue, since 1/5 of the Turkish population is Kurdish. The vast majority of Kurds are not opposed to the government and attacks on the government by Kurdish rebels is far less than it has been in the past.

 

Good point about the risks in Istanbul and Ephesus. Although there are some who rightfully point to the alarming numbers of shootings in the USA, perhaps naively I don't think there is potentially an organized effort to target tourists.

 

 

And, even if most Kurds eschew violence, President Erdogan's policy changes in the last year, and his desire to centralize power, have changed the nature of Turkey's political culture. Some would argue that moderate Kurds no longer wish to cooperate with him. There are also other radical groups that wish to undermine his authority.

 

Therefore, although enjoying cruises to Istanbul and Ephesus twice last year, we now think the political landscape has changed. There are other cruise itineraries that at this point seem more attractive.

[4774Papa]

Good point about the risks in Istanbul and Ephesus. Although there are some who rightfully point to the alarming numbers of shootings in the USA, perhaps naively I don't think there is potentially an organized effort to target tourists.

 

 

And, even if most Kurds eschew violence, President Erdogan's policy changes in the last year, and his desire to centralize power, have changed the nature of Turkey's political culture. Some would argue that moderate Kurds no longer wish to cooperate with him. There are also other radical groups that wish to undermine his authority.

 

Therefore, although enjoying cruises to Istanbul and Ephesus twice last year, we now think the political landscape has changed. There are other cruise itineraries that at this point seem more attractive.

nordski,

Good points about Erdogan's political changes. He is essentially a Muslim Brotherhood lite and is in the process of reversing the almost century long secular

policies of the Turkish state. As an Islamist, he is pushing Turkey backward.

 

Not sure how far Erdogan can push Turkey backward. Turkey has millions of citizens that prefer the secular vision of Ataturk. When Europeans and North Americans visit Turkey is seems more European than they anticipate. That is because Istanbul and the West Coast of Turkey is more European. However, not all the country is that way. The people in the rural area are far more less European.

 

We lived in Germany for four years and encountered many Turkish people there that worked in service jobs or labor. Some still seemed cut from the rural, more Middle-Eastern cut.

 

Ataturk turned Hagia Sophia (originally an Orthodox church build by Emperor Justinian in the 6th Century), into a museum. Indicative of change, Erdogan opened up Hagia Sophia for mosque services.

 

How Erdogan and the Syrian civil war will affect tourism in Turkey has yet to be written. I hope Turkey says secular and does not become a terrorist battleground.

[nordski]

nordski,

Good points about Erdogan's political changes. He is essentially a Muslim Brotherhood lite and is in the process of reversing the almost century long secular

policies of the Turkish state. As an Islamist, he is pushing Turkey backward.

 

Not sure how far Erdogan can push Turkey backward. Turkey has millions of citizens that prefer the secular vision of Ataturk. When Europeans and North Americans visit Turkey is seems more European than they anticipate. That is because Istanbul and the West Coast of Turkey is more European. However, not all the country is that way. The people in the rural area are far more less European.

 

We lived in Germany for four years and encountered many Turkish people there that worked in service jobs or labor. Some still seemed cut from the rural, more Middle-Eastern cut.

 

Ataturk turned Hagia Sophia (originally an Orthodox church build by Emperor Justinian in the 6th Century), into a museum. Indicative of change, Erdogan opened up Hagia Sophia for mosque services.

 

How Erdogan and the Syrian civil war will affect tourism in Turkey has yet to be written. I hope Turkey says secular and does not become a terrorist battleground.

 

 

Certainly our guides in Istanbul were critical of Erdogan's policies, and they provided interesting insights during our visits. That, of course, is the value of travel and it is unfortunate to lose that experience. However, some of our reticence to return is based on a sense that a crisis would be used by Erdogan to justify his desire to solidify his power.

 

We had the same experience in St. Petersburg. A guide who, for personal reasons, detested Putin, but he also recognized that in rural areas Putin is wildly popular. It's those personal contacts that help to make politics more personal.

[Tacu]

I've had advice from them today that my cruise next year will no longer be visiting Istanbul. reasons cited are "ongoing port construction work

and berth availability in Istanbul, through 2017".

 

"You will see that Celebrity Equinox will no longer call into Istanbul. Instead to provide an outstanding

modern luxury cruise experience, she will now call into Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey and Chania (Souda),

Crete, Greece."

 

Disappointed that I won't see Istanbul but the change is hardly unexpected. Hopefully this will give some hope to those in this thread who were worried about potential removal of Ephesus from cruise itineraries though, as it looks as if that port will probably remain :)

[MicCanberra]

I've had advice from them today that my cruise next year will no longer be visiting Istanbul. reasons cited are "ongoing port construction work

and berth availability in Istanbul, through 2017".

 

"You will see that Celebrity Equinox will no longer call into Istanbul. Instead to provide an outstanding

modern luxury cruise experience, she will now call into Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey and Chania (Souda),

Crete, Greece."

 

Disappointed that I won't see Istanbul but the change is hardly unexpected. Hopefully this will give some hope to those in this thread who were worried about potential removal of Ephesus from cruise itineraries though, as it looks as if that port will probably remain :)

 

Thanks for the update, that makes me feel much better.:D

[gillsjottings]

I've had advice from them today that my cruise next year will no longer be visiting Istanbul. reasons cited are "ongoing port construction work

and berth availability in Istanbul, through 2017".

 

"You will see that Celebrity Equinox will no longer call into Istanbul. Instead to provide an outstanding

modern luxury cruise experience, she will now call into Ephesus (Kusadasi), Turkey and Chania (Souda),

Crete, Greece."

 

Hi Tacu, we are cruising on the Equinox in July and haven't heard of any changes to our itinerary as yet. Did you hear directly from Celebrity or did you book through an agent? I'm quite anxious to know whether our itinerary is going to change as we have booked flights out of Istanbul which I will obviously need to change if our itinerary changes. :(

[jael001]

Hi Tacu, we are cruising on the Equinox in July and haven't heard of any changes to our itinerary as yet. Did you hear directly from Celebrity or did you book through an agent? I'm quite anxious to know whether our itinerary is going to change as we have booked flights out of Istanbul which I will obviously need to change if our itinerary changes. :(

 

As far as I'm aware, cruises that start or end in Istanbul will still do so, but cruises that were due to stop in Istanbul midway through the intinerary will no longer do so.

[pieter&sharon]

Using that logic, I would never visit the US, given the rampant gun violence, home grown terrorists, and the foreign terrorist threat.

Yet somehow, no one ever brings that up around here after a particular violent act. Should we have stopped cruising from the West coast due to the San Bernardino violence? Perhaps have dropped the East coast after the Boston bombings, the chopping of police officers in New York, 9/11, the sniper shootings in DC and surrounding areas, Ft Hood, and so on... Yet somehow, the US keeps encouraging visitors to keep coming, that somehow it's a one-off event, etc... I would think we could extend the same view to other overseas areas.

Everyone has to evaluate their own safety and risk tolerance. Obviously we shouldn't put ourselves in specific harm's way if we can help it, ie I wouldn't be touring Syria just now, but I also won't be writing off an entire area for violence that is hundreds of miles away, just as I don't write off the entire US due to the violence there.

 

[Tacu]

I booked direct with Celebrity and my cruise was one that was due to stop in Istanbul mid-way through. (Also note that I'm not sailing until next year, so I don't think you have to worry :).)

[villauk]

As far as I'm aware, cruises that start or end in Istanbul will still do so, but cruises that were due to stop in Istanbul midway through the intinerary will no longer do so.

[urlttp://boards.cruisecritic.co.uk//uk.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/"][/url]

 

That is what happened last year on Equinox: our overnight in Istanbul was cut to boarding on the first day and then sailing in the evening. X can more easily change a port of call day to somewhere else, compared to actually embarking/disembarking from Istanbul (logistics wise).

 

Ephesus, or should I correctly state Kusadasi, is on many itineraries this year that don't even venture to Istanbul. It's one port that is featured heavily on Eastern Med itineraries and I have not heard that it's being removed, up to this point. No great hardship to us if it is altered as we have visited many times on previous sailings (shame for those that haven't, though, as Ephesus is well worth a visit). Now our kids are a different story: they will be extremely disappointed if they are unable to obtain their yearly fake 'tat' :D.

[bogofman]

I've had a look at our Reflection cruise for August 29th ( included 2 stops in Turkey ) and there are too many cabins available to count).

 

 

A Constellation Cruise leaving on the 28th ( no stops in Turkey) is already almost fully booked.

 

What does that tell Celebrity about the thoughts of customers thinking of booking 2015 med cruises

Edited February 21, 2016 by bogofman

[Cruise Junky]

I've had a look at our Reflection cruise for August 29th ( included 2 stops in Turkey ) and there are too many cabins available to count).

 

 

A Constellation Cruise leaving on the 28th ( no stops in Turkey) is already almost fully booked.

 

What does that tell Celebrity about the thoughts of customers thinking of booking 2015 med cruises

 

That they're SOL without a time machine :)

 

Unless the itineraries are identical without Turkey you cannot compare them.

[villauk]

What does that tell Celebrity about the thoughts of customers thinking of booking 2015 med cruises

 

They missed the boat :D.

[tercar]

Personally if you don't want to go to turkey book a cruise that does not go there simple!!