Ethics vs Self-interest

[Jamericannn]

I don't think that is what the OP meant. I believe that he was saying that the reviewer who he quoted should read this thread in order to receive an education about the way things work instead of just swearing off of cruising for reasons that largely don't exist.

 

Thank you sparks1093. I am glad you read with comprehension. I like the point of view from everyone so I was saying I hope the original reviewer can see others point of view and maybe he would change his mind because of the informative information he receive from the thread.

[Jamericannn]

After going back to their original post, I think you are correct. My apologies to the OP for my sarcastic reply...

 

Sent from my Galaxy 4

 

Ok. I won't report you anymore. Lol. Just kidding. It's all good. We can all easily misunderstand something when it's written.

[nissach]

I agree with what many have already said...

Why are people so concerned with what others make (or don't make)?

Who are we to say whether a wage is enough or not? As one person stated, if they are happy with the wage then that is all that really matters.

Everyone has choices and can choose to not work on a cruise ship if they are paid poorly or treated poorly.

If the OP is so against how the staff are treated and paid, then please choose not to cruise again!

[Lurkyloo]

The reviewer probably should not go on vacation to any foreign country if they are going to apply "American" standards as to how much people get paid and whether or not it is "fair".

 

Very good point!

 

Hey there Jamericannn! 146 days to go! :) I love to cruise, I love the experience, and bottom line - nobody is forcing them to work on a cruise ship. I wouldn't mind paying more so that the staff could make more, but the ones I have talked to seem content and happy to be sending so much money home. They also get free room and board. Some are only working for a few years then returning home with the savings. I have to assume that most feel that they are making enough money to accomplish goals.

 

Sometimes the moral high ground is a slippery slope. If the reviewer feels so strongly - and they certainly have the right to their opinion - then they need to stay home in the U.S. because as was pointed out, people in other countries are not being paid as much as workers in America either. And they need to stop buying stuff from China and Mexico as well. We have no control over what is paid in other countries and Cruise ships are not registered in the U.S. (Probably for that reason, sadly). But the truth is, many could not afford to cruise if staff were paid at U.S. rates. I try to make it up by being very generous with cash tips above and beyond the mandated tips at the end of the cruise. (In all my cruises, I have only not tipped above and beyond once and it was a Steward that I rarely saw, never had personal contact with who didn't even bother to make the beds and tidy up one day or leave even one towel animal the whole 7 day cruise. Didn't ruin my vacation and the rest of the staff were great, but I didn't feel he deserved anything above the mandated tips.)

 

We probably can't change Cruise Ship policies, however we can all make a difference by being generous with those we come into contact with. Carry $1 bills around and tip cash for that drink instead of putting on your S&S, and tip your Steward, wait staff and even that favorite bar tender generously at the end of the cruise or even as you go.

 

That's just my opinion, which along with $3 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks! ;)

Edited November 26, 2016 by Lurkyloo

[drafterdw]

I don't know about the OP, but I have seen videos by legitimate cruise ship recruiters who state that wages are based on the employee's country of origin. Workers have also confirmed this.

 

The employees we have spoken to seem very happy with their situations with the exception of one cruise out of Long Beach......most were miserable and service was poor. Onebwaiter in a bar arwa was very good and we ask him about situatin on ship. He saidnit was bar manager....not good person to work for! His reson for not leaving & going to different ship, he was from MX so if he had a d ay off while in port he could see his family. Felt bad for his working situaton but he made his choice based on family.

[swscruiser]

The question was... Say you own one single business, would you pay the workers based on their addresses or would you pay based on position and experience?[/quote

 

If I had a business in large metropolitan area, I would pay different salaries than if I owed the same business in small city. If I paid each person the exact same wage one would have a much better standard of living because cost of living is different for both

[Jamericannn]

Very good point!

 

Hey there Jamericannn! 146 days to go! :) I love to cruise, I love the experience, and bottom line - nobody is forcing them to work on a cruise ship. I wouldn't mind paying more so that the staff could make more, but the ones I have talked to seem content and happy to be sending so much money home. They also get free room and board. Some are only working for a few years then returning home with the savings. I have to assume that most feel that they are making enough money to accomplish goals.

 

Sometimes the moral high ground is a slippery slope. If the reviewer feels so strongly - and they certainly have the right to their opinion - then they need to stay home in the U.S. because as was pointed out, people in other countries are not being paid as much as workers in America either. And they need to stop buying stuff from China and Mexico as well. We have no control over what is paid in other countries and Cruise ships are not registered in the U.S. (Probably for that reason, sadly). But the truth is, many could not afford to cruise if staff were paid at U.S. rates. I try to make it up by being very generous with cash tips above and beyond the mandated tips at the end of the cruise. (In all my cruises, I have only not tipped above and beyond once and it was a Steward that I rarely saw, never had personal contact with who didn't even bother to make the beds and tidy up one day or leave even one towel animal the whole 7 day cruise. Didn't ruin my vacation and the rest of the staff were great, but I didn't feel he deserved anything above the mandated tips.)

 

We probably can't change Cruise Ship policies, however we can all make a difference by being generous with those we come into contact with. Carry $1 bills around and tip cash for that drink instead of putting on your S&S, and tip your Steward, wait staff and even that favorite bar tender generously at the end of the cruise or even as you go.

 

That's just my opinion, which along with $3 will get you a small coffee at Starbucks! ;)

 

 

146 long days :). The bottom line is once we treat those who are serving us nicely, they will reciprocate. That's all that matters on the cruise. Doesn't make sense investigating people's business that is not ours such as salary.

 

Have you booked any excursions? I don't book with the cruise lines. I get better deals when I book independently.

[LuckyZ]

I just read a review where the cruiser say he/she had a wonderful cruise but will never cruise again. His/her reason was because after talking to many of the workers he/she was disappointed a the way carnival treated them. Many of these workers are from poor countries. The cruise line pays the workers according to what they would get paid in their country. For example, a worker from Philippines (as most cruise lines workers are) would get $2 - $4 per hour and would work long hours.

 

1. Do you guys think this is ethical? Should the cruise lines pay the workers American wages seeing the ships are operating from American ports?

 

2. Knowing that if the pay for the workers raise so will the prices to cruise or they will limit things that are "free", should we care that the workers are underpaid?

 

Thoughts....

 

1. Do Americans refrain from eating at a restaurant in the USA knowing that the waitresses make $2 per hour and have to make a living on tips?

2. Would those same Americans still eat out if prices doubled so waitresses could make a more normal wage?

Edited November 27, 2016 by LuckyZ

[chengkp75]

Decided to read the review that started this thread, and found that the reviewer knows absolutely nothing about cruise ships, not just about the pay issue.

 

First off, they don't even know that the "boats" are not "American", but Bahamian or Panamanian.

 

Second, cruise ships do not dump "billions of gallons of sewage and wastewater" in the ocean, as it is not within maritime law. Cruise ships have waster water treatment plants that typically exceed the standards used by most municipalities in the US to treat their wastewater, and most ports do not allow discharge of even treated sewage in port. The treated effluent is completely colorless and nearly to drinking water standards. What the reviewer saw "when anchored off Belize" was the thrusters being used to keep heading for creating a "lee" for the tenders, and this stirs up the bottom sediment in shallow anchoring areas, and the stench is from the raw sewage that the city of Belize has dumped for decades into the sea.

 

I won't go into what misconceptions the reviewer has regarding the DSC and how it is distributed.

 

It's unfortunate that ignorance has led this person who obviously enjoyed cruising to stop, but if people won't educate themselves, there's nothing you can do.

[sparks1093]

Decided to read the review that started this thread, and found that the reviewer knows absolutely nothing about cruise ships, not just about the pay issue.

 

First off, they don't even know that the "boats" are not "American", but Bahamian or Panamanian.

 

Second, cruise ships do not dump "billions of gallons of sewage and wastewater" in the ocean, as it is not within maritime law. Cruise ships have waster water treatment plants that typically exceed the standards used by most municipalities in the US to treat their wastewater, and most ports do not allow discharge of even treated sewage in port. The treated effluent is completely colorless and nearly to drinking water standards. What the reviewer saw "when anchored off Belize" was the thrusters being used to keep heading for creating a "lee" for the tenders, and this stirs up the bottom sediment in shallow anchoring areas, and the stench is from the raw sewage that the city of Belize has dumped for decades into the sea.

 

I won't go into what misconceptions the reviewer has regarding the DSC and how it is distributed.

 

It's unfortunate that ignorance has led this person who obviously enjoyed cruising to stop, but if people won't educate themselves, there's nothing you can do.

 

Your last line pretty much sums it up.

[Krissfon]

OP, I've been to Indonesia where I spent 3 weeks visiting a cousin who worked for the oil industry. What I learned was the driver available basically 24/7 was paid around $400/month (2001) and the live in maid available 24/6 made $30/month in Jakarta. The maid sent nearly all her money to her parents in southern Java to send her son to school because it's not free. It's absolutely a goal of many Indonesians to learn English so they can get jobs on cruise ships. The driver made a good living by their standards. My relatives with their really good American incomes and oil company benefits lived exceptionally well. You can't judge the wages people make on the ships through our priveledged American position in the world. I'm happy for the people who've been able to secure a job on the cruise ship because it means they've made it.

[Computer Nerd]

1. Do Americans refrain from eating at a restaurant in the USA knowing that the waitresses make $2 per hour and have to make a living on tips?

2. Would those same Americans still eat out if prices doubled so waitresses could make a more normal wage?

 

1. Yes.

2. No.

[Computer Nerd]

It's unfortunate that ignorance has led this person who obviously enjoyed cruising to stop, but if people won't educate themselves, there's nothing you can do.

 

Spot on! :)

[ducklite]

1. Do Americans refrain from eating at a restaurant in the USA knowing that the waitresses make $2 per hour and have to make a living on tips?

2. Would those same Americans still eat out if prices doubled so waitresses could make a more normal wage?

 

 

 

Actually most economists say the menu costs would rise by about 30%. That wouldn't stop us from eating out or changing those patterns. We already tip 20% rounded up on the full check, including the tax. We wouldn't notice the modest increase spread over the total cost.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Micahs Grandad]

Cruise ship positions are very desirable ones and pay more than people would make at home.

 

Cruise ships seem to have no problems filling their openings.

[tidecat]

Payroll is typically about 11% of a cruise's operating cost:

 

http://www.cruisemarketwatch.com/home/financial-breakdown-of-typical-cruiser/

 

Keep in mind that if a cruise ship were US-flagged, it would have to pay and withhold both employer-paid and employee-paid taxes such as Social Security and Medicare. Most shipboard employees would take about a 15%-20% pay cut just from having to cough up Social Security, Medicare, Federal, and in some cases, State taxes as well.

 

That said, the one US-flagged ocean cruise ship currently in operation, Norwegian's Pride of America, really doesn't have outrageous fares compared to say Carnival's 7-day Southern Caribbean cruises out of San Juan, especially since there is no casino aboard the Pride of America.

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note7 using Tapatalk. Hey, do you smell anything burning?

[sparks1093]

Payroll is typically about 11% of a cruise's operating cost:

 

http://www.cruisemarketwatch.com/home/financial-breakdown-of-typical-cruiser/

 

Keep in mind that if a cruise ship were US-flagged, it would have to pay and withhold both employer-paid and employee-paid taxes such as Social Security and Medicare. Most shipboard employees would take about a 15%-20% pay cut just from having to cough up Social Security, Medicare, Federal, and in some cases, State taxes as well.

 

That said, the one US-flagged ocean cruise ship currently in operation, Norwegian's Pride of America, really doesn't have outrageous fares compared to say Carnival's 7-day Southern Caribbean cruises out of San Juan, especially since there is no casino aboard the Pride of America.

 

 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note7 using Tapatalk. Hey, do you smell anything burning?

 

We paid $1800 for a balcony on Fascination. For grins I just priced PoA for December 3 this year it's $3398 and for next October it's $4198 (and on CCL it's $1913). I would say that is significantly higher than what CCL charges for the S. Caribbean out of San Juan.

Edited November 27, 2016 by sparks1093

[ducklite]

We paid $1800 for a balcony on Fascination. For grins I just priced PoA for December 3 this year it's $3398 and for next October it's $4198 (and on CCL it's $1913). I would say that is significantly higher than what CCL charges for the S. Caribbean out of San Juan.

 

 

 

I don't know the answer and not trying to be snarky, but are those journeys of the same length with the same ports of call on the same weeks with the same included features (i.e. Anything like coffee, alcohol, soda, shows, meals, ice cream, etc.?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[sparks1093]

I don't know the answer and not trying to be snarky, but are those journeys of the same length with the same ports of call on the same weeks with the same included features (i.e. Anything like coffee, alcohol, soda, shows, meals, ice cream, etc.?

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

Yep, both 7 day cruises, mid-ship balcony, each ship doing the same itinerary in both years. I did not select any of the "free" items that NCL "gives" away because that would raise the price because of gratuities with some of the selections, but it is of course an option. I know at one point I priced the PoA and the CCL ship that sails out of Long Beach. CCL came in at around $1400 less but that cruise was 14 days versus 7 days for PoA.

[Sweet Dutch Girl]

No one gives a darn about my salary when they use my services. Why should they? I "choose" to do the job I do and, apparently, I am "happy" about my compensation or I wouldn't do it.

 

There will always be those who complain about their salaries, their hours, their working conditions. Isn't that human nature; to always want more whether it be benefits, less hours, salary, working conditions. As hard as it is to comprehend, by some, people "do choose" their jobs for whatever reason...if only to ensure food on the table, etc.

 

Also, people who are "confined" when working, like those on a cruise ship, probably aren't as "hours orientated" as those who commute to work. What would a ship board employee do with the other 16 hours each day and a 48 hour weekend if they worked 40 hours: there isn't a lot an employee can do on the limited space of a ship, nor can they afford to leave it at every port.

 

These employees eat prepared meals, they wear uniforms washed by others, they don't have to commute, they aren't taking care of children during their off hours, they aren't grocery shopping, running errands, cleaning their own homes, doing gardening or outside chores.

 

No, I wouldn't want to work on a ship but if I did I'd want to keep busy and stimulated.

[chengkp75]

Yep, both 7 day cruises, mid-ship balcony, each ship doing the same itinerary in both years. I did not select any of the "free" items that NCL "gives" away because that would raise the price because of gratuities with some of the selections, but it is of course an option. I know at one point I priced the PoA and the CCL ship that sails out of Long Beach. CCL came in at around $1400 less but that cruise was 14 days versus 7 days for PoA.

 

Yes, the POA tends to be the same or more expensive for a 7 day Hawaiian cruise as a 14 day WC to Hawaii cruise on a foreign flag ship. And you have to remember that the POA is underway a grand total of 60 hours during that cruise, while the WC cruises have 10 sea days at near full speed. POA's fuel consumption is about 25% of what CCL burns going from the WC. NCL has to buy everything in Hawaii, which means paying for shipping, or ship it themselves to Hawaii, even the fuel, as fuel on the WC is significantly cheaper than Hawaii.

 

The only time the NCL Hawaii fares were less than the cruises from the WC, was when they were losing $174 million a year on the operation.

[nissach]

no one gives a darn about my salary when they use my services. Why should they? I "choose" to do the job i do and, apparently, i am "happy" about my compensation or i wouldn't do it.

 

There will always be those who complain about their salaries, their hours, their working conditions. Isn't that human nature; to always want more whether it be benefits, less hours, salary, working conditions. As hard as it is to comprehend, by some, people "do choose" their jobs for whatever reason...if only to ensure food on the table, etc.

 

Also, people who are "confined" when working, like those on a cruise ship, probably aren't as "hours orientated" as those who commute to work. What would a ship board employee do with the other 16 hours each day and a 48 hour weekend if they worked 40 hours: There isn't a lot an employee can do on the limited space of a ship, nor can they afford to leave it at every port.

 

These employees eat prepared meals, they wear uniforms washed by others, they don't have to commute, they aren't taking care of children during their off hours, they aren't grocery shopping, running errands, cleaning their own homes, doing gardening or outside chores.

 

No, i wouldn't want to work on a ship but if i did i'd want to keep busy and stimulated.

 

like!!:)

[summersigh]

1. Do Americans refrain from eating at a restaurant in the USA knowing that the waitresses make $2 per hour and have to make a living on tips?

I don't know about others who were waiters or waitresses ...BUT ... I made considerably more $$$ with the tips method than I would have if the restaurant paid more and charged the customers for it.

 

I kind of looked at it as the $2 was for the side work required ... for serving the food I saw myself as an "independent contractor":D

[Jamericannn]

No one gives a darn about my salary when they use my services. Why should they?

 

I wish my boss gives a farm about my salary. I need a raise

[Computer Nerd]

I wish my boss gives a farm about my salary. I need a raise

 

Ha! I do the jobs previously held by 3 people. My boss promised me a raise back in January, yet to be seen. I think we are both SOL. :)