Near riot on Silhouette on 5/27

[RDC1]

The line is off the ship. Outside Celebrity's control. Celebrity staff don't have blanket authority to cut lines off the ship.

Actually they do. The reason why is when you sign up for a cruise you agree to the passenger contract and code of conduct. Part of that includes a phrase about obeying crew instructions. When a crew member tells you to let other passengers in front failure to follow the instruction puts one in violation of that agreement on or off of the ship. In close proximity to the ship, in a port area and prior to clearing immigration control that agreement would clearly apply. One may not like it, but if one made a major issue about not following the instruction could result in action taken under terms of the contract and code of conduct.

 

Now they could not tell passengers of another cruise line what to do, only their own passengers have agreed to the terms.

Edited June 2, 2017 by RDC1

[SantaFeFan]

Actually they do. The reason why is when you sign up for a cruise you agree to the passenger contract and code of conduct. Part of that includes a phrase about obeying crew instructions. When a crew member tells you to let other passengers in front failure to follow the instruction puts one in violation of that agreement on or off of the ship. In close proximity to the ship, in a port area and prior to clearing immigration control that agreement would clearly apply. One may not like it, but if one made a major issue about not following the instruction could result in action taken under terms of the contract and code of conduct.

 

Now they could not tell passengers of another cruise line what to do, only their own passengers have agreed to the terms.

 

Nope. Once off the ship, the crew has no authority. You are now on private or public property not owned by the cruise line. The owners of that property have authority, not the crew. It is their rules that would apply, not the cruise line's. According to your opinion, if the crew told you to stay in a location on the dock and the property owners told you to move to another location, the crew's authority would prevail over the owner's. That is not how it works - ESPECIALLY in Russia!

[Bryce1962]

Actually they do. The reason why is when you sign up for a cruise you agree to the passenger contract and code of conduct. Part of that includes a phrase about obeying crew instructions. When a crew member tells you to let other passengers in front failure to follow the instruction puts one in violation of that agreement on or off of the ship. In close proximity to the ship, in a port area and prior to clearing immigration control that agreement would clearly apply. One may not like it, but if one made a major issue about not following the instruction could result in action taken under terms of the contract and code of conduct.

 

Now they could not tell passengers of another cruise line what to do, only their own passengers have agreed to the terms.

 

 

Just asking... at what point do I sign this agreement you speak of? I purchased my holiday from my travel agent and have signed nothing, is it something I sign as I board? Or are you confusing the captains authority passed to the crew by proxy? In which case it only applies on the ship.... or life boats. I am keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

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[ECCruise]

Actually they do. The reason why is when you sign up for a cruise you agree to the passenger contract and code of conduct. Part of that includes a phrase about obeying crew instructions. When a crew member tells you to let other passengers in front failure to follow the instruction puts one in violation of that agreement on or off of the ship. In close proximity to the ship, in a port area and prior to clearing immigration control that agreement would clearly apply. One may not like it, but if one made a major issue about not following the instruction could result in action taken under terms of the contract and code of conduct.

 

Now they could not tell passengers of another cruise line what to do, only their own passengers have agreed to the terms.

 

You'd have to show me where the contract says "In close proximity to the ship, in a port area and prior to clearing immigration control". Never seen those words in a contract but maybe I missed them.

[NLH Arizona]

Just asking... at what point do I sign this agreement you speak of? I purchased my holiday from my travel agent and have signed nothing, is it something I sign as I board? Or are you confusing the captains authority passed to the crew by proxy? In which case it only applies on the ship.... or life boats. I am keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

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When you pay your final payment, you are agreeing to the terms of the cruise ticket contract.

[RDC1]

Nope. Once off the ship, the crew has no authority. You are now on private or public property not owned by the cruise line. The owners of that property have authority, not the crew. It is their rules that would apply, not the cruise line's. According to your opinion, if the crew told you to stay in a location on the dock and the property owners told you to move to another location, the crew's authority would prevail over the owner's. That is not how it works - ESPECIALLY in Russia!

Not. So the contract is not limited to physical presence on the ship. It also applies to anything else involving the ship, it's crew and passengers. You can disobey, the action the ship can take is limited to not letting you reboard. Stand on the pier and punch another passenger and see if their authority stops at the gangway when you waive goodby to the ship.

 

Read the language it says nothing about being physically limited to the ship.

[Bryce1962]

When you pay your final payment, you are agreeing to the terms of the cruise ticket contract.

 

 

Cruise ticket contract.... this is good stuff, can you point me to where I can read this please? Still keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

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[RDC1]

You'd have to show me where the contract says "In close proximity to the ship, in a port area and prior to clearing immigration control". Never seen those words in a contract but maybe I missed them.

The agreements says the cruise line can take action up to and including kicking you off of the ship for a number of things including not following crew instructions. It is not limited by location. It is limited by duration.

 

I put in a more restricted area that is applicable in the case being discussed because those are areas that impact the ship and it's ability to dock in a given port.

[RDC1]

Cruise ticket contract.... this is good stuff, can you point me to where I can read this please? Still keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

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There are two documents. The first is the passenger ticket contract. The second, referenced by the first is the passenger code of conduct. Do a search for for each with Celebrity added to the search terms. There are some regional variations depending on where you do your booking.

[SantaFeFan]

Not. So the contract is not limited to physical presence on the ship. It also applies to anything else involving the ship, it's crew and passengers. You can disobey, the action the ship can take is limited to not letting you reboard. Stand on the pier and punch another passenger and see if their authority stops at the gangway when you waive goodby to the ship.

 

Read the language it says nothing about being physically limited to the ship.

 

Still nope. I rather doubt that US immigration, for instance, would appreciate a crew member telling passengers which line they can and cannot get in, and who goes first. That is US Immigration control, not the crew's. I would like to see a crew member trying to override an Immigration officer's commands. That would be something to witness. :evilsmile:

 

Same would apply with any immigration control. ESPECIALLY Russia's!

[ECCruise]

The agreements says the cruise line can take action up to and including kicking you off of the ship for a number of things including not following crew instructions. It is not limited by location.

 

I put in a more restricted area that is applicable in the case being discussed because those are areas that impact the ship and it's ability to dock in a given port.

 

It has to be limited by location or it does not apply. If I get into a hassle with a store owner in Juneau, they cannot kick me off the ship. The Juneau police can arrest me, if it applies, but the ship/crew has not jurisdiction.

 

I contend that once you have left the ship, the crew does not have the right to determine how things are handled, especially regarding immigration procedures in a foreign country. Limit me all you want when onboard: give priority to suites, loyalty class, ship tours or hair color, but once I am on foreign soil the jurisdiction shifts to the officials there.

 

They would have a hard time enforcing the "contract" if they put a number of people who have not waited in front of someone already waiting in an immigration line and people were disturbed and didn't follow the crew's instruction. Wait! I think that this is exactly that scenario.

[richsea]

Just asking... at what point do I sign this agreement you speak of? I purchased my holiday from my travel agent and have signed nothing, is it something I sign as I board? Or are you confusing the captains authority passed to the crew by proxy? In which case it only applies on the ship.... or life boats. I am keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

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When you go on line and fill out the "on-line checkin", which is where you give them your emergency contact info, passport info, etc., the last thing they ask is for you to read & sign the cruise contract. Your check in is not complete until you finish this step.

[Bryce1962]

There are two documents. The first is the passenger ticket contract. The second, referenced by the first is the passenger code of conduct. Do a search for for each with Celebrity added to the search terms. There are some regional variations depending on where you do your booking.

 

 

Are you referring to this:

 

5.6 Can you refuse to allow me to travel?

If in our reasonable opinion or the reasonable opinion of the ship’s Master or doctor, you are or appear to be unfit to travel for any reason or a risk or danger to yourself or a danger to others or behave in such a way as to cause or likely to cause danger, upset or distress to any third party or danger to property. In this situation we are entitled without prior notice to refuse to allow you to travel on any ship and to terminate your cruise holiday at any time. You may then be left at any port or place at which the ship calls without us incurring any liability. You will have to pay any costs, expenses or losses suffered as a result, and we will not pay any compensation or give you any refund. Once your holiday has been terminated in this manner, we will not have any further responsibility towards you.

 

 

I don't think this gives Celebrity the right to control immigration lines formed off of the ship.

 

Am I looking in the wrong place? Still keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

 

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[Bryce1962]

Really confused now.. regional variations? That doesn't sound very fair.

 

 

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[RDC1]

Still nope. I rather doubt that US immigration, for instance, would appreciate a crew member telling passengers which line they can and cannot get in, and who goes first. That is US Immigration control, not the crew's. I would like to see a crew member trying to override an Immigration officer's commands. That would be something to witness. :evilsmile:

 

Same would apply with any immigration control. ESPECIALLY Russia's!

Show me anywhere in this stream where Russian immigration took any action or any notice counter to the crew members action. So the case of a disagreement did not arise.

[NLH Arizona]

Cruise ticket contract.... this is good stuff, can you point me to where I can read this please? Still keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

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You can google it. "celebrity cruises passenger contract"

[ECCruise]

Show me anywhere in this stream where Russian immigration took any action or any notice counter to the crew members action. So the case of a disagreement did not arise.

 

Do you remember how Russian immigration works in SPB? Likely the agents would not even see it.

 

There are, however, several posts on here that related how this underhanded tactic was attempted by Celebrity (and other lines) and the Russian officials told them not to do it in the future.

[RDC1]

It has to be limited by location or it does not apply. If I get into a hassle with a store owner in Juneau, they cannot kick me off the ship. The Juneau police can arrest me, if it applies, but the ship/crew has not jurisdiction.

 

I contend that once you have left the ship, the crew does not have the right to determine how things are handled, especially regarding immigration procedures in a foreign country. Limit me all you want when onboard: give priority to suites, loyalty class, ship tours or hair color, but once I am on foreign soil the jurisdiction shifts to the officials there.

 

They would have a hard time enforcing the "contract" if they put a number of people who have not waited in front of someone already waiting in an immigration line and people were disturbed and didn't follow the crew's instruction. Wait! I think that this is exactly that scenario.

Using you own example if the police arrested you and held you past departure time you would find your cruise terminated without reimbursement just as specified in the agreement.

 

People being disturbed is one thing. A person making a material disruption like yelling at the crew member, starting a riot, starting a fight, that becomes a different. What we have here from the OP is that they pushed in front of the person put in front of them. I doubt the crew member even noticed.

 

However according to the agreement if someone did make a material disruption then the cruise line could take action.

[Bryce1962]

Googled.

 

Carrier may refuse to transport any Passenger, and may remove any Passenger from the

Vessel or Transport at any time, for any of the following reasons: (i) whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulations, directives or instructions; (ii) when a Passenger refuses to permit search of his person or property for explosives, weapons, dangerous materials or other stolen, illegal or prohibited items; (iii) when a Passenger refuses upon

request to produce positive identification; or (iv) for failure to comply with Carrier’s rules and procedures, including, for example, Carrier’s Guest Conduct Policy or Carrier’s policies against fraternization with crew; or (v) Guest’s passage is denied by Carrier pursuant to its Refusal to Transport policy. Carrier’s Guest Conduct Policy and Refusal to Transport policy are available online at http://www.celebritycruises.com/plan-and-book/before-you-go-during-cruise and http://www.celebritycruises.com/media/en_US/pdf/cruise_ticket_contract/Refusal-to-Transport.pdf.

j. In the interests of safety and security, Passengers and their baggage are subject to inspection or monitoring electronically with or without the Passenger’s consent or knowledge.

k. If Carrier exercises its rights under this Section 8, Passenger shall have no claim against Carrier whatsoever and Carrier shall have no liability for refund, compensation loss or damages of Passenger, including but not limited to any expenses incurred by Passenger for accommodations or repatriation.

 

I still don't see where Celebrity has the authority over immigration lines in a foreign country..... please help... still keen to learn[emoji1417]

 

 

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[Bryce1962]

I did find this:

 

Unsafe Behavior

Sitting, standing, laying or climbing on, over or across any exterior or interior railings or other protective barriers, or tampering with ship’s equipment, facilities or systems designed for guest safety is not permitted. Guests may not enter or access any area that is restricted and for the use of crew members. Any other unsafe behavior, including failure to follow security instructions, is not permitted.

 

But I don't see how Celebrity considers pushing their excursion customers in front of other customers in an immigration line is a security issue.... perhaps you can help.... still keen to learn[emoji1417][emoji1][emoji1417]

 

 

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[ECCruise]

I have a crazy notion here.

 

If you are going to sell wildly overpriced shore excursions, why not do the smart thing and make those excursions better than any you can purchase for a lot less money your own? Why not make the experience so beyond the normal that people will have no problem paying the extra tariff?

 

Unfortunately, that is not how much of US business circa 2017 operates. It is all bottom-line focused, not customer-experience focused. In the past, the most successful companies--of any size--made their products or services the absolute best that could be provided. And you know what? People flocked to those companies. Now it is all smoke and mirrors. Buy a tour from us or you will have visa problems. Buy a tour from us or you may be left behind with no recourse. Buy a tour from us or we will shove our people in front of you in immigration. Your cruise includes a "free" booze package. Cruise on "sale" for the next xx days when the price was raised commensurate with the "sale" discount the day before.

[theriac]

Maybe Celebrity views the port itself as an extension of the ship as they are the ones who made arrangements and paid to dock there. Until you get to the actual officer, you may still be viewed as technically on board.

 

I don't think it's right they let people jump the line, but I can see this being how they view the issue.

 

whatever will bewilder me

[NLH Arizona]

Maybe Celebrity views the port itself as an extension of the ship as they are the ones who made arrangements and paid to dock there. Until you get to the actual officer, you may still be viewed as technically on board.

 

I don't think it's right they let people jump the line, but I can see this being how they view the issue.

 

whatever will bewilder me

That could be their thinking, because you are not actually in the country until after you go through immigration.

[Cindy]

There are, however, several posts on here that related how this underhanded tactic was attempted by Celebrity (and other lines) and the Russian officials told them not to do it in the future.

 

 

As far as I know this kind of thing has been going on for many years in St. Petersburg. Immigration can be very slow, and the cruise lines have tried to use several different tactics to get their tours out faster. I remember reading some things about it when I was doing research for my 2014 trip. If I remember correctly, the biggest offender at that time was Princess.

 

A quick search today uncovered this thread from Trip Advisor: https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g298507-i707-k2933915-New_Tactic_by_cruise_ships_to_intimidate_passengers-St_Petersburg_Northwestern_District.html

 

There is also a thread here on Cruise Critic from an authority with the port in St. Petersburg. She was gathering information about people's experiences with their cruise line's handling of the process in SPB. http://boards.cruisecritic.com/showthread.php?p=51814707

 

 

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[theriac]

Clearly you miss the point, let me explain.

 

Show me the evidence.... don't make false claims! You make yourself look foolish. Also my tag is clear at the top of my posts, when you see it.... move on[emoji12]

 

 

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I haven't made any claims whatsoever, that was someone else, but you're repetitive posts are really obnoxious while people are trying to have a real conversation.

 

For someone who is 55 or 56 I'd think you would know acting like a child is a bit petty and uncalled for.

 

whatever will bewilder me