Anyone on BA in Winter Storm Grayson off Carolinas?

[Enavigo]

Just for clarity UK bookings are not subject to US law.

 

They use to be but it all changed after the Costa Concordia incident.

 

All bookings made in the UK are subject to UK law as per your cruise contract.

 

This applies to all cruiselines not just NCL.

 

 

 

If you book in the EU your contract with NCL is subject to German law.

 

 

 

I know the majority of people affected were subject to US law but not all.

 

 

 

A very important point. Thank you for that (I was assuming all US bookings).

 

 

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[chengkp75]

Just for clarity UK bookings are not subject to US law.

They use to be but it all changed after the Costa Concordia incident.

All bookings made in the UK are subject to UK law as per your cruise contract.

This applies to all cruiselines not just NCL.

 

If you book in the EU your contract with NCL is subject to German law.

 

I know the majority of people affected were subject to US law but not all.

 

Yes, but there is no real equivalent in the UK to the US class action suit. There is a similar action that only applies to breaches of competition laws. Therefore, each plaintiff must file separately, and the limits of the Athens convention apply.

 

I don't believe that Germany has a class action mechanism either.

[AmazedByCruising]

There is also the argument that "people skills" (and communicating with passengers is not the only "people skill" that a supervisory person can have) are below the passenger's, crew's and ship's safety, and even the environment, and so at a time when his attention was most likely needed on the bridge, the Captain felt that he had to prioritize his duties, and communication fell down the list.

 

There are more people who can handle a microphone. The CD, the HD, some officer could have kept people informed. Scary things are a lot less scary when someone is explaining what the situation is and what to expect. Some people probably would have liked to be assured that the ship was not going to sink, but they needed to be very careful walking around.

[NLH Arizona]

There are more people who can handle a microphone. The CD, the HD, some officer could have kept people informed. Scary things are a lot less scary when someone is explaining what the situation is and what to expect. Some people probably would have liked to be assured that the ship was not going to sink, but they needed to be very careful walking around.

I'd bet my last dollar that if the Captain came on the PA system and said that we are behind the storm and all is well, there would be folks saying that he lied and he took us straight into the storm. Just saying!

[LrgPizza]

I respectfully disagree that they kept the pax safe No the ship didn't sink nor did anyone fly off the decks or get hit by flying balcony dividers but they still should have stayed south of the storm or veered east toward Bermuda

 

 

In all my years reading cc I've actually never read as many reports of damage/water/balcony doors breaking etc as I have about this cruise

 

Imho keeping pax safe would mean staying south or east of the storm by 24 hours and arriving even later than the

 

 

You can disagree all you want, but the fact is that the passengers were and are safe.

[chengkp75]

There are more people who can handle a microphone. The CD, the HD, some officer could have kept people informed. Scary things are a lot less scary when someone is explaining what the situation is and what to expect. Some people probably would have liked to be assured that the ship was not going to sink, but they needed to be very careful walking around.

 

Handling a microphone is far different from having the authority to make announcements. Technically, the Captain must vet all announcements, unless he grants some clearance to a subordinate, such as for routine announcements by the CD. The Captain, in this instance would be wary of allowing someone to make announcements that had not been screened by the Captain (which would have taken as much time as making the announcement), since this announcement could be used in any legal proceeding. He may have even been limited by the ISM from allowing anyone to make such an announcement. Without knowing the NCL ISM, I can't say.

[nomad098]

Yes, but there is no real equivalent in the UK to the US class action suit. There is a similar action that only applies to breaches of competition laws. Therefore, each plaintiff must file separately, and the limits of the Athens convention apply.

 

I don't believe that Germany has a class action mechanism either.

 

Sorry if I did not make myself clear it was just to make the point that not everyone is tied to the NCL's arbitration service in Miami.

 

You need to read your own contract to know what laws are applicable.

 

In the UK there are quite a few options including group litigation.

 

And some of them don't even require you to have a lawyer:D:evilsmile::D

[AmazedByCruising]

Handling a microphone is far different from having the authority to make announcements. Technically, the Captain must vet all announcements, unless he grants some clearance to a subordinate, such as for routine announcements by the CD. The Captain, in this instance would be wary of allowing someone to make announcements that had not been screened by the Captain (which would have taken as much time as making the announcement), since this announcement could be used in any legal proceeding. He may have even been limited by the ISM from allowing anyone to make such an announcement. Without knowing the NCL ISM, I can't say.

 

A simple order to the CD, "tell them it will be rough for the next 2 hours, after that we should be OK" is not a realistic drain on the Captain's capabilities. I wouldn't want to be on a ship where the captain would even think about lawsuits when he's in command of a ship filled with panicking passengers.

[suffield12]

A simple order to the CD, "tell them it will be rough for the next 2 hours, after that we should be OK" is not a realistic drain on the Captain's capabilities. I wouldn't want to be on a ship where the captain would even think about lawsuits when he's in command of a ship filled with panicking passengers.

 

 

 

Unfortunately looking at the comments above regarding litigation is evidence enough that a ships Master must think about lawsuits. We are placed under the legal microscope on a daily basis and without the comfy protection of lawyers and fair legal proceedings, just look at the master of the MT Prestige who was placed in jail without trial for 2 years...in mainland Europe.

 

The masters priority was to provide back up to the watchkeeping officers who were likely to have been carrying out quite a stressful watch.

 

 

 

 

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[chengkp75]

A simple order to the CD, "tell them it will be rough for the next 2 hours, after that we should be OK" is not a realistic drain on the Captain's capabilities. I wouldn't want to be on a ship where the captain would even think about lawsuits when he's in command of a ship filled with panicking passengers.

 

And when it doesn't "get better" in 2 hours? You then get into the place of "did the Captain lie when he said it would get better", etc. And it is not so much that the Captain is consciously thinking of lawsuits, though in the US's society, any supervisor who does not consider legal ramifications for virtually any action is naive. It is more that the ISM covers the legal responsibilities, and tells the Captain how he/she should deal with most situations. The Captain, as well as all officers, supervisors, and crew, to varying degrees are responsible for learning their responsibilities under the ISM, and following the ISM. ISM systems are incredibly detailed documents that dictate how virtually every aspect of operations are handled on ships, from voyage planning, safety protocols, HR, deck and engine operating and maintenance procedures, etc, etc. The ISM is required to be basically a "write what you do" and "do what you write" document covering the company's business.

[suffield12]

And when it doesn't "get better" in 2 hours? You then get into the place of "did the Captain lie when he said it would get better", etc. And it is not so much that the Captain is consciously thinking of lawsuits, though in the US's society, any supervisor who does not consider legal ramifications for virtually any action is naive. It is more that the ISM covers the legal responsibilities, and tells the Captain how he/she should deal with most situations. The Captain, as well as all officers, supervisors, and crew, to varying degrees are responsible for learning their responsibilities under the ISM, and following the ISM. ISM systems are incredibly detailed documents that dictate how virtually every aspect of operations are handled on ships, from voyage planning, safety protocols, HR, deck and engine operating and maintenance procedures, etc, etc. The ISM is required to be basically a "write what you do" and "do what you write" document covering the company's business.

 

 

 

Excellent post

 

 

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[Momof3gurlz]

There are more people who can handle a microphone. The CD, the HD, some officer could have kept people informed. Scary things are a lot less scary when someone is explaining what the situation is and what to expect. Some people probably would have liked to be assured that the ship was not going to sink, but they needed to be very careful walking around.

 

This exactly. I was on this cruise and posted much earlier in the thread, referring to the Captain as a "quack". After reading through most of the posts, in particular those of Chengkp75who explained that we were likely a bit behind the storm, I would now take back that quack reference. If only the Captain had taken a few minutes to explain a few things, or at the very least authorized someone else to do this, I believe it would have gone a long way to reassure people. This was our 5th cruise out of the Northeast during the winter and we did go through a very bad storm in the Gen a couple of years ago with probably similar wind/wave conditions however that storm lasted one night & that Captain made clear & detailed announcements about what was going on and what we might expect over the next several hours. BIG difference between that and a storm that lasted 2+ days and we received only vague, canned statements. We were fully aware of the possibility of storms or bad weather this time of year, just never expected it to last that long or that communication would be so lacking. I'm not asking for or looking for anything from NCL - if would however be nice if they learned something from this and maybe modified their communications protocols during a storm. And thank you to Chengkp75 for providing such great information.

[chengkp75]

Much like the Anthem storm voyage, where the Captain was found not to have done anything "wrong" according to the ISM, RCI felt that their system needed change, so they changed the ISM and created additional assets the Captain can access in storm voyage planning. If anything at all comes from this voyage of the BA, it would be a change to the ISM for directions to Captains regarding communications to passengers (making communications mandatory), in manners and formats cleared by corporate legal (who always have a large voice in writing the ISM).

[Kustomcars]

I was on board, room 5806. While I had a partially sleepless night, and this was probably the worst weather I've experienced on a cruise, I was never in great fear. But we only experienced a few things sliding off the desk and table in the room. I do agree that communication was lacking, but Neither myself, nor my GF, got seasick. The next day, we slowed down considerably, which is why we arrived late, and the ride was relatively smooth. For being in such a storm.

But it's not so terrible I wouldn't take another cruise, or stay away from the BA.

[emdia43]

I haven't been able to easily find a track map for Grayson, and BA was outside of AIS range for much of the storm, so I can't get their track to compare the relative positions of each, but one weather map I have seen (over on the Cunard forum), shows the center of the storm well off Nova Scotia at midnight Thursday/Friday and BA did not get to NYC until the afternoon of Friday. Even the weather map posted by mking on page one of this thread (showing the center as off Delaware), and using the onboard post by mm40, giving the ship's position as "north of Hatteras", I can say that the ship was considerably behind the storm. I'm too lazy to look through this thread to see if anyone mentioned onboard wind speeds, but at the distance from the center of the storm that the ship appears to have traveled, I doubt there were hurricane strength winds (most reports I've seen report hurricane strength gusts) at the ship.

 

 

BA decided to slow down and follow the storm, in my opinion the correct choice, in order to take seas on the bow. Wind appears to have been on the port side, causing the list, and as I've said, there is only so much liquid the ship can move to correct a wind heel, and a constant list is preferable to heavy rolling.

 

 

What interests me is that the QM2 delayed sailing due to the storm, and subsequently had to sail fully past the storm (rather than follow behind) off Nova Scotia and in the North Atlantic, at high speed, to make scheduled arrival in Southampton. No one complaining about putting their lives in danger there, but also no reports of damage either. If you look on the Cunard forum, the thread there even mentions the Captain making an announcement regarding the "technical difficulties" in handling a force 10-11 following sea, which BA would have experienced had she stayed offshore further as some have suggested.

 

How would the weather conditions have improved if they had just delayed return for another day?

[proll267]

The captain should have just got on the mic with a broken English freestyle every hour just to calm the mood.

 

 

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[chengkp75]

How would the weather conditions have improved if they had just delayed return for another day?

 

Do you mean delay for another day, later than they actually arrived? Not sure where this delay would have happened, or what the weather would have been where ever it happened. This would probably have led to a near cancellation of the next cruise, at the very least a severe change, maybe to eliminate the southern itinerary altogether.

[emdia43]

Yes. I am not a Mariner but to me it seems the safest choice would be to shelter somewhere until the storm of this magnitude was completely gone .It would not be the first time that a cruise got extended, or the following one shortened. I am not going to venture out in a blizzard, or just following one, until doing so is safe. If the situation was so fraught with danger, so harrowing, that the Captain could not get on the loudspeaker for five minutes a day (or assign someone else to) to reassure very scared passengers, then IMO he made an unwise choice.

That seems to be the main reason so many people were upset- lack of information- and led them to assume that if no one could be spared, to tell them what was happening, maybe things WERE as bad as they were thinking...... :confused:

[xriva]

Yes. I am not a Mariner but to me it seems the safest choice would be to shelter somewhere until the storm of this magnitude was completely gone .It would not be the first time that a cruise got extended, or the following one shortened. I am not going to venture out in a blizzard, or just following one, until doing so is safe. If the situation was so fraught with danger, so harrowing, that the Captain could not get on the loudspeaker for five minutes a day (or assign someone else to) to reassure very scared passengers, then IMO he made an unwise choice.

 

That seems to be the main reason so many people were upset- lack of information- and led them to assume that if no one could be spared, to tell them what was happening, maybe things WERE as bad as they were thinking...... :confused:

 

 

 

“I am not a Mariner” is all you have to say. If the situation were fraught with danger, another option would have been chosen. If you are not a professional, you are saying, “I believe it was fraught with danger, but I have no training or experience to make that assessment.”

 

When people on a ship are afraid, that is a natural occurrence and a real fear. However, it doesn’t mean they are in a situation where they need to be fearful.

 

At some point, companies (mostly unfairly) determine that their customers are grown-ups and can make logical assumptions based on minimal information. The logical assumption when nobody is being told to head for the lifeboats is that it’s rough outside, but we’ll be OK.

 

I was on the Breakaway on the inaugural crossing, and if you watch the episode of Mighty Ships about the trip, you would think we were going to be sunk in a mighty storm, and that there was no way we would make it to New York on time. However, we were on the ship, in a forward cabin, and never thought we were in any danger at all. Perceptions. In the media, it’s called “building suspense.”

 

The media shows the same clip over and over of a family trying to get nine cabins comped. They don’t show the many other people who got off and said, “A bit rough, but it’s winter.”

 

A ship is limited by her maximum speed and her schedule. Some storms cannot be “sailed around.” In that case, the Captain minimizes the effects as best he can, which is what sounds like he did. In an emergency, the schedule is adjusted, which it was.

 

You are not going to go out in a blizzard because you don’t have anything to do that can’t be postponed. A ship has passengers waiting to get off and passengers waiting to get on.

 

If the Breakaway had stayed in the Bahamas, the nine-cabin family would be screaming in their videos that they were being held prisoner on the ship and their vacation was ruined.

 

Weather is unpredictable. People with that type of attitude are not.

 

 

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[PelicanBill]

 

...Weather is unpredictable. People with that type of attitude are not.

 

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Super good post; well stated. I have been on Breakaway from NY and Voyager of the Seas from Bayonne under conditions very close to these. There are many cruises on which hundreds of people need seasickness bags. Quite a few on which things slide off tables and shelves and a lot of broken glass must be cleaned up.

 

I agree that it is disconcerting to have your balcony door seal blow and to be turned back to your cabin by security. This would make me suspicious that information of the conditions are being withheld. I have experienced two cruises with NCL that had difficult situations, and there was a terrible lack of communication. The Breakaway has to get better at communicating with its passengers. NCL has to get better at this overall.

[Leafpeeper]

I was excited about boarding GEM Saturday for our upcoming Caribbean cruise until I read these messages. I have encountered many bad storms on cruises and never was concerned about making it home safely, but now my anxiety has kicked in. Next month I have to worry about flying to Florida. More anxiety. Then we have to board a Panama Canal cruise. More anxiety. Then we have to fly home over the Rockies with turbulents. More anxiety!!!

 

 

Considering we live on the New England coast and have survived blizzards and hurricanes, I guess my house shaking with huge trees in the neighbor's yard ready to come down on our roof Thursday, I will risk boarding the GEM Saturday and assume I am in God's hands as we begin our 50th wedding anniversary celebration. If we could survive in laws and teenagers, we can survive cruising and flying. Glad we have an inside cabin. May need to add the alcohol package!

Edited January 8, 2018 by Leafpeeper

[billslowsky]

I was excited about boarding GEM Saturday for our upcoming Caribbean cruise until I read these messages. I have encountered many bad storms on cruises and never was concerned about making it home safely, but now my anxiety has kicked in. Next month I have to worry about flying to Florida. More anxiety. Then we have to board a Panama Canal cruise. More anxiety. Then we have to fly home over the Rockies with turbulents. More anxiety!!!

 

 

Considering we live on the New England coast and have survived blizzards and hurricanes, I guess my house shaking with huge trees in the neighbor's yard ready to come down on our roof Thursday, I will risk boarding the GEM Saturday and assume I am in God's hands as we begin our 50th wedding anniversary celebration. If we could survive in laws and teenagers, we can survive cruising and flying. Glad we have an inside cabin. May need to add the alcohol package!

 

Some people on the New England (and Atlantic) coast had it worse than the passengers on this ship. Floods in Boston, people losing power and freezing. Enjoy your cruise.

[Boatdrill]

. The captain and crew are very capable and the ship is strong, but scary weather is magnified at sea.

 

That's all good as long as the ship has power. Remember the Carnival Splendour (2010) and the Carnival Triumph (2013)...both adrift without power because of engine room fires. Both were adrift in calm seas with good weather, and helicopters were able to drop supplies.

 

In bad weather such as the Breakaway was experiencing, had they lost power it would have been a very serious situation.The ship's tall superstructure acts like a sail when the wind is coming at it and can push the ship where ever it wants (as it did with the Costa Concordia). Without propulsion, the ride becomes even more rough. The Coast Guard would have had their hands full flying out to the Breakaway and even then their assistance would have been compromised...not impossible, just limited. Thankfully the Breakaway made it through.

[uneamie]

I was excited about boarding GEM Saturday for our upcoming Caribbean cruise until I read these messages. I have encountered many bad storms on cruises and never was concerned about making it home safely, but now my anxiety has kicked in. Next month I have to worry about flying to Florida. More anxiety. Then we have to board a Panama Canal cruise. More anxiety. Then we have to fly home over the Rockies with turbulents. More anxiety!!!

 

 

Considering we live on the New England coast and have survived blizzards and hurricanes, I guess my house shaking with huge trees in the neighbor's yard ready to come down on our roof Thursday, I will risk boarding the GEM Saturday and assume I am in God's hands as we begin our 50th wedding anniversary celebration. If we could survive in laws and teenagers, we can survive cruising and flying. Glad we have an inside cabin. May need to add the alcohol package!

LOL...and since we are boarding the Breakaway on the 19th...still in winter storm season, my anxiety has increased beyond measure! Thankfully we have the UBP...haha!

[EandS]

LOL...and since we are boarding the Breakaway on the 19th...still in winter storm season, my anxiety has increased beyond measure! Thankfully we have the UBP...haha!

 

 

 

Don’t stress I sailed a two week voyage over the Atlantic and endured a storm with 30 foot waves. The Capitan reassured us that our ship was well equipped to handle the storm. I never felt in danger. A few days later we were all though it and it was back to smooth sailing.

 

 

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