83 year old evacuated from Anthem

[Capt_BJ]

I was one of the guys doing these missions for 30 years - mostly in the Carib'

 

am I allowed to voice an opinion?

 

By the time I rose to Command of a Major Cutter in the Carib' doing law enforcement and SAR .... I became somewhat 'tainted' about the US mission. YES the US has signed on to perform SAR in certain areas .... yet we'd also become the Triple A of the Carib' ..... and that's just talking about towing. Free helo medivac ..... heck the patients were often saying what hospital they wanted to be delivered to ....

 

When US does medical evacs in the territorial waters of another country I say Hmmmmmmm .....

 

SAR in the same situation .... Hmmmmmmm

 

btw ... did you know that (as far as I know) there is NO statute that requires the USCG to perform SAR ...... it is POLICY ... not an edict! There are codes that establish USCG as a law enforcement and customs agency (14 USC 89 for one), and some that assign SAR areas but none REQUIRES USCG to 'GO OUT' .....

 

let us suppose what happens in this case if the USCG was restricted to operations within US Territorial waters ........

 

p.s. if someone wants to toss around 'agreements'

 

US was a major driver in establishing GMDSS requirements ....

 

check our compliance/participation ..... we wrote the rules and are at the tail end of compliance!!!!!

Edited May 13, 2018 by Capt_BJ

[chengkp75]

I was one of the guys doing these missions for 30 years - mostly in the Carib'

 

am I allowed to voice an opinion?

 

By the time I rose to Command of a Major Cutter in the Carib' doing law enforcement and SAR .... I became somewhat 'tainted' about the US mission. YES the US has signed on to perform SAR in certain areas .... yet we'd also become the Triple A of the Carib' ..... and that's just talking about towing. Free helo medivac ..... heck the patients were often saying what hospital they wanted to be delivered to ....

 

When US does medical evacs in the territorial waters of another country I say Hmmmmmmm .....

 

SAR in the same situation .... Hmmmmmmm

 

btw ... did you know that (as far as I know) there is NO statute that requires the USCG to perform SAR ...... it is POLICY ... not an edict! There are codes that establish USCG as a law enforcement and customs agency (14 USC 89 for one), and some that assign SAR areas but none REQUIRES USCG to 'GO OUT' .....

 

let us suppose what happens in this case if the USCG was restricted to operations within US Territorial waters ........

 

p.s. if someone wants to toss around 'agreements'

 

US was a major driver in establishing GMDSS requirements ....

 

check our compliance/participation ..... we wrote the rules and are at the tail end of compliance!!!!!

 

Capt, I know your qualifications, but I'll question your statement that there is no statute that requires the USCG to perform SAR. The US is signatory to the International Convention on Maritime Search and Rescue, since 1979, and this requires the US to pass enabling legislation, and while I haven't found the code or regulation, I assume it is there. I also found that SAR is a statutory mission of the USCG, so there must be some USC that covers this mission. Now, I've never said that the USCG "has to go out", it doesn't, if the risks are not warranted, just like a ship's Captain is not required to render assistance to a ship in distress if it risks the ship, the crew, cargo or the environment. 6 USC 468 lists search and rescue as a mission of the USCG.

 

And I guess that you are referring to the waivers given to fishing vessels for GMDSS, because I'm not aware of any other ocean-going US flag vessel that doesn't meet the GMDSS requirements.

 

And I believe the "taint" you got was from recreational boaters, and I know that the USCG's response to these "emergencies" has changed over the years, with the advent of companies like SEATOW and BOATUS.

[Capt_BJ]

while I haven't found the code or regulation, I assume it is there. I also found that SAR is a

statutory

mission of the USCG, so there must be some USC that covers this mission.

cite it! I know what laws I operated under .....





there are codes that assign USAF inland responsibility and USCG off shore responsibility but none that require response ..... look it up .....





And I guess that you are referring to the waivers given to fishing vessels for GMDSS,





oh no ... much more basic .... READ the GMDSS 'requirements.' US ain't even close .... not what a vessel must carry .... what a 'country' must provide as coverage ...... areas A1 ... A2 etc ...... or is that outside your area of expertise?????





We forced the requirements and don't comply!





US wrote the regs, forced em on the international community and while many of them spent the dollars to comply, US did not .... or not last time I checked anyway. See http://www.rtcm.org/

Edited May 13, 2018 by Capt_BJ

[chengkp75]

14 USC Part 1, Chapter 1, section 2: "The Coast Guard shall: (4) develop, establish, maintain, and operate, with due regard to the requirements of national defense, aids to maritime navigation, ice breaking facilities, and rescue facilities for the promotion of safety on, under, and over the high seas and waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

 

Bolding is mine. That sounds like a statutory mandate to perform SAR to me, but then I'm just a poor marine engineer.

 

Also, every ship I've served on over the last few decades has had the SART, EPIRB, GMDSS, SSA-S, Navtex, equipment, as required by IMO, as well as USCG. Sea areas A1-A4 are part of the IMO resolution establishing GMDSS, so this is not any failure of the US to comply. In fact, since sea areas A1 and A2 have not been defined, that all vessels operating offshore US waters meet the sea zone A3 requirements, unless the vessel has applied for a waiver to meet the A1 zone, if it is within an area where A1 requirements would apply. What I will say that I have no knowledge of is what the USCG has provided as a national agency, you may have more information on this.

 

But I won't debate this any more with you.

[RDC1]

14 USC Part 1, Chapter 1, section 2: "The Coast Guard shall: (4) develop, establish, maintain, and operate, with due regard to the requirements of national defense, aids to maritime navigation, ice breaking facilities, and rescue facilities for the promotion of safety on, under, and over the high seas and waters subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.

 

Bolding is mine. That sounds like a statutory mandate to perform SAR to me, but then I'm just a poor marine engineer.

 

Also, every ship I've served on over the last few decades has had the SART, EPIRB, GMDSS, SSA-S, Navtex, equipment, as required by IMO, as well as USCG. Sea areas A1-A4 are part of the IMO resolution establishing GMDSS, so this is not any failure of the US to comply. In fact, since sea areas A1 and A2 have not been defined, that all vessels operating offshore US waters meet the sea zone A3 requirements, unless the vessel has applied for a waiver to meet the A1 zone, if it is within an area where A1 requirements would apply. What I will say that I have no knowledge of is what the USCG has provided as a national agency, you may have more information on this.

 

But I won't debate this any more with you.

 

Title 14 Chapter 5 Section 88

 

§ 88. Saving life and property(a) In order to render aid to distressed persons,vessels, and aircraft on and under the high seasand on and under the waters over which theUnited States has jurisdiction and in order torender aid to persons and property imperiled byflood, the Coast Guard may:(1) perform any and all acts necessary to rescueand aid persons and protect and save property;(2) take charge of and protect all propertysaved from marine or aircraft disasters, orfloods, at which the Coast Guard is present,until such property is claimed by persons legallyauthorized to receive it or until otherwisedisposed of in accordance with law or applicableregulations, and care for bodies ofthose who may have perished in such catastrophes;(3) furnish clothing, food, lodging, medicines,and other necessary supplies and servicesto persons succored by the Coast Guard;and(4) destroy or tow into port sunken or floatingdangers to navigation.

 

 

6 U.S. Code § 468 - Preserving Coast Guard mission performance

 

(1)Non-homeland security missionsThe term “non-homeland security missions” means the following missions of the Coast Guard:

(A)Marine safety.

(B)Search and rescue.

©Aids to navigation.

(D)Living marine resources (fisheries law enforcement).

(E)Marine environmental protection.

(F)Ice operations.

[tdtanc]

You guys are some really smart dudes! Thanks for your service!

 

TD

[RDC1]

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Our-Organization/Assistant-Commandant-for-Response-Policy-CG-5R/Office-of-Incident-Management-Preparedness-CG-5RI/US-Coast-Guard-Office-of-Search-and-Rescue-CG-SAR/

 

 

Search and Rescue (SAR) is one of the Coast Guard's oldest missions. Minimizing the loss of life, injury, property damage or loss by rendering aid to persons in distress and property in the maritime environment has always been a Coast Guard priority. Coast Guard SAR response involves multi-mission stations, cutters, aircraft and boats linked by communications networks. The National SAR Plan divides the U.S. area of SAR responsibility into internationally recognized inland and maritime SAR regions. The Coast Guard is the Maritime SAR Coordinator. To meet this responsibility, the Coast Guard maintains SAR facilities on the East, West and Gulf coasts; in Alaska, Hawaii, Guam, and Puerto Rico, as well as on the Great Lakes and inland U.S. waterways. The Coast Guard is recognized worldwide as a leader in the field of search and rescue.

[RDC1]

The following is a very interesting power point presentation

 

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/UN_USA08/2009%20USA%20USCG%20SAR.pdf

 

 

from which I extracted the following paragraph that defines the sections of Title 14 that authorize SAR

 

Authority to conduct SAR missions is contained in Title 14, Sections 2, 88, and 141 of the U.S. Code. • The code states that the Coast Guard shall develop, establish, maintain and operate SAR facilities. • and may render aid to distressed persons and protect and save property on and under the high seas. • Coast Guard performance of SAR is essentially permissive in nature. • Search and Rescue activity may be considered a mandated function, but no specific level of performance has been cited under the legislative authority.

[ElaineKeagy]

An evacuation by USCG helo does not indicate the passenger did not have travel insurance. If a life threatening situation, time is paramount and coordinating transfers thru your travel insurance is not necessarily easy or timely. The idea is to save a life.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using Forums

[Expat Cruise]

Cruise ships almost always carry medical staff in excess of what is minimally mandated by SOLAS.

 

And I am rather upset that you chose to demean the efforts of Canadian Forces SAR (some of the best in the world, from personal experience), AusSAR (Australian Maritime Safety Authority), the UK Maritime and Coastguard Authority, virtually every nation of western Europe, and even tiny countries/territories like Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Malta. All of these nations deploy maritime SAR assets of cutters, and fixed and rotary wing aircraft either identical or equivalent to those deployed by the USCG. All of these organizations risk the lives of their members performing maritime SAR missions, and your jingoistic statement is a disservice to these brave men and women.

 

I would love to study the source of your statement that the US does "many more" rescues and "further offshore", and whether or not this factors in the amount of coastline of each nation, and also the percentage of world shipping entering/leaving each country.

 

I also find it interesting that someone who chooses to live as an expatriate, and take advantage of the tax advantages of living overseas, spends so much time worrying about what the US government spends it's money on.

 

No sir do not try to put words in my mouth. I said the country cruise ships are flagged in. So why talk about Canada or Australia. The numbers given are correct, if you want a complete study go out and find it.

 

But if you want to talk about other countries take the Philippines for example total Coast guard air fleet is less than 10 aircraft, only one working helicopter. In a country of 8000 Islands, so how could they preform a rescues 100 miles offshore? They cannot even patrol their own waters let alone far off shore.

 

If you want to compare assets available no country can match the United States, and many take advantage of this. While I may live outside the United States I still have business interest and pay taxes, vote and can have any opinions I want. If you would like that proved please see the Bill of Rights. You will find it in my nations Capital Washington, D.C.

[ONECRUISER]

CHIEF, a wealth of information as always. Been on Cruise Critic now over 20 yrs and can always learn something new...

[darthvadrouw]

No sir do not try to put words in my mouth. I said the country cruise ships are flagged in. So why talk about Canada or Australia. The numbers given are correct, if you want a complete study go out and find it.

 

You didn't specify 'cruise' ships, ships can be flagged in Canada, Australia, UK, ... .

 

Besides no numbers were given just a simple 'the USGC performs many more rescues', we are still waiting for that study, we weren't able to find it by ourselves, so please enlighten us on where it can be found.

 

What's more, if you were on a cruise and required medical assistance that was beyond the ships medical facility you would be glad that the USGC would be sending out the best equipment for you. It is not because you think another country is not putting the effort that the USGC has to follow suit.

[chengkp75]

No sir do not try to put words in my mouth. I said the country cruise ships are flagged in. So why talk about Canada or Australia. The numbers given are correct, if you want a complete study go out and find it.

 

But if you want to talk about other countries take the Philippines for example total Coast guard air fleet is less than 10 aircraft, only one working helicopter. In a country of 8000 Islands, so how could they preform a rescues 100 miles offshore? They cannot even patrol their own waters let alone far off shore.

 

If you want to compare assets available no country can match the United States, and many take advantage of this. While I may live outside the United States I still have business interest and pay taxes, vote and can have any opinions I want. If you would like that proved please see the Bill of Rights. You will find it in my nations Capital Washington, D.C.

 

I saw no mention in the post I quoted about the flag countries of the cruise ships. Besides, are you implying that a flag country should be responsible for SAR and medical evacuation for it's own flag ships regardless of where that ship is in the world? That would be the only correlation to the flag nation that I could see that you are proposing. And guess what, not even the US does that. That would require staging rescue assets all around the world in foreign countries, just on the off chance that one of your ships needed assistance.

 

Then comes your comparison to the Philippines. Okay, so they don't have the assets to patrol their coastline, are you saying that the USCG goes out there and does this for them? Or simply that none is done in the region? So, since the Philippines could not rescue an injured crewman on a Chinese contaner ship in Philippine waters, that means that the US should not provide that service to a Chinese ship in US waters?

 

Did I say you couldn't hold your opinions? That same Bill of Rights, gives me the right to question your thought process and motivation for your statements, or does this just apply to some people?

Edited May 14, 2018 by chengkp75

[SRF]

People get evacuated all the time. Why is this news?

 

Exactly.

 

I was talking the port agent in Halifax. He does the job for NCL as well as RCI. At the time, my mother and one other person were being evaced from Grandeur (in port so no helicopter).

 

He told me one cruise, they had to replace the gangway 6 times for evacs. Each time they would pull it, someone else would get injured and have to get off. And each one waited for the gangway to be pulled. But no one waited for the lines to be pulled. Perfect timing.

[ElaineKeagy]

I'm happy for this lady and hope she is ok and everything works out for her. . But these rescues from cruise ships seem to be happening more and more. Should it really be on the American Taxpayers to foot these bills? The cruise lines take the passengers on the ships and when they get really sick use the USCG to take care of the problem.

 

USCG spent about 680 million dollars last year on rescues of all kind, over 5100 people great job but averages over $100,000 per person. It costs about $1,600 to fuel a Coast Guard MH-60 Jayhawk helicopter, patrol boat costs $1,147 hour to operate. The USCG C-130 turboprop planes, about $7,600 an hour for fuel alone.

 

Why should the American Taxpayers foot these bills the cruise lines are making millions in profits. In the last two weeks four of these rescues off cruise ships that I have heard about, so my guess several more. The Silver Muse, Holland America Veendam, and Anthem of the Seas 2 times April 29 and May 12. What is the issue with Anthem, two times in two weeks, and RCCL is rolling in profits?

 

Again not attacking the guest just questioning the way things are done that allow cruise lines to take and take and give back very little it seems.

 

 

 

Wait till it’s you.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[lucymorgan]

This post reminded me of the cost of a rescue a few years ago 2000 nautical miles of the Australian Coast of a teenage US sailor trying to beat a world record. As the article says "We are talking about someone's life"

 

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-06-12/australia-to-foot-bill-for-teen-sailors-rescue/863964

[ElaineKeagy]

Or in 2014 the sick infant whose parents were sailing solo round the world USCG and USN both involved in that task force.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[Desert Cruizers]

When my husband had a heart attack after dinner near the end of our TA, , the medical expense from that evening and into the next day where he was taken off in ST Johns Newfoundland , all went to my CC on file. Our regular medical coverage under his Federal Plan sent me a check to pay the CC after receiving from the cruise lines all the medical fees and proof of payment via the CC. He was not medivac off the ship as we were to far out and the Coast Guard felt it was safer for him to remain on board until we got into the harbor of ST Johns.

I do hope the lady who became ill recovers and is doing well.

[ElaineKeagy]

When my husband had a heart attack after dinner near the end of our TA, , the medical expense from that evening and into the next day where he was taken off in ST Johns Newfoundland , all went to my CC on file. Our regular medical coverage under his Federal Plan sent me a check to pay the CC after receiving from the cruise lines all the medical fees and proof of payment via the CC. He was not medivac off the ship as we were to far out and the Coast Guard felt it was safer for him to remain on board until we got into the harbor of ST Johns.

 

I do hope the lady who became ill recovers and is doing well.

 

 

 

I hope your husband is doing well now.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Forums

[Desert Cruizers]

Elaine, thank you however sadly after we got him home there was to much brain damage from being down to long before they got his heart going again so we had to say our goodbye's. We almost made it to 49 yrs together. He enjoyed cruising and seeing all the new places and meeting so many wonderful new friends. The Serenade medical team and staff were outstanding. Friends of ours who were on the SOS recently took a picture of Jeorge ( Guest Services ) and sent it to me.:) Daughter & I have a cruise next March with friends and the Allure in 2020 we are looking forward to.

 

Gay

[PhoenixCruiser]

So sorry for your loss Gay