The Elbe river 2019 - not just water levels

[arlowood]

Many thanks for the confirmation regarding the position of the Astrild in Wittenberg.

 

I would be grateful to hear if you observe any movement over the coming days and also any possible weather changes that might see an improvement in the river levels ahead of our expected cruise date of 16th July.

[AnhaltER1960]

14 hours ago, arlowood said:

Many thanks for the confirmation regarding the position of the Astrild in Wittenberg.

 

I would be grateful to hear if you observe any movement over the coming days and also any possible weather changes that might see an improvement in the river levels ahead of our expected cruise date of 16th July.

 

The heat of the weekend has gone, Bernburg in Saxony-Anhalt 50 mls west of Wittenberg hit the jackpot with 39,6 Celsius or 103 degrees Fahrenheit. Lower temperatures lead to some clouds, even a bit of rain (the colder temperatures cannot hold so much humidity) and some thunderstorms. Enough to send some water down the Elbe, which will rise the Dresden readings by roundabout 20 cm tonight. But not for long, not enough rain for more.

 

The rain you need has to fall in Bohemia by July 11th the latest, one day, better two days of rain. This is not in sight this week. Weather forecasts in central Europe for more than five days are not really reliable, so its not all over yet.

[arlowood]

Hi there

 

Appreciate the comments and anaylsis.

 

The actual cruise part of our trip is due to end in Decin (Czechia) on 23rd July followed by a transfer to Prague. Since that area is upstream of the problematic Dresden section I have checked the long range forecast and there appears to be no significant rainfall for the whole of July - maybe some morning or afternoon showers but nothing more.

 

Of course we cannot rely totally on the accuracy of these forecasts so I will keep my fingers crossed that things improve. As I've said already, I would not welcome the coach shuttle option so hopefully the cruise can go ahead as planned.

[Upgradefairy4u]

Just heard from Viking. Our Elbe cruise leaving July 6 has a change of ships in Dresden due to low water levels.  😟

[arlowood]

8 hours ago, Upgradefairy4u said:

Just heard from Viking. Our Elbe cruise leaving July 6 has a change of ships in Dresden due to low water levels.  😟

Hi there

Tks for the info.

Can you clarify if they have just stated that you will be on a different ship and that your cruise will go ahead as normal or have they indicated that you will be spending 2/3 nights on one ship with a coach transfer to the other ship part way through.

 

Also if the coach shuffle is happening, were you given the option to cancel with a full refund?

Edited July 2, 2019 by arlowood
transpose word

[Upgradefairy4u]

3 hours ago, arlowood said:

Hi there

Tks for the info.

Can you clarify if they have just stated that you will be on a different ship and that your cruise will go ahead as normal or have they indicated that you will be spending 2/3 nights on one ship with a coach transfer to the other ship part way through.

 

Also if the coach shuffle is happening, were you given the option to cancel with a full refund?

Here is what they said:

Following your 2-night stay in Prague, you will be welcomed on board Viking Beyla in Dresden and carry-out your shore excursion program from there. After completing your shore excursion program on Day 5, you will then transfer to identical sister ship, Viking Astrild, which will be stationed further along the river, to complete the rest of your itinerary. Day-by-day details are below.

Day 1 - 2	Itinerary as scheduled.
Day 3	Following your two included hotel nights in Prague, you will travel by motor coach to Dresden (92 miles) for embarkation on Viking Beyla.
Day 4	Complete your shore excursion program in Saxon Switzerland, Germany by motor coach. Return to your ship in Dresden.
Day 5	Disembark from your ship in Dresden, complete your shore excursion program before transferring by motor coach to embark Viking Astrild in Wittenberg.
Day 6 - 7	Complete shore excursion program from the ship docked in Wittenberg.
Day 8 - 10	Disembark for your 2-night hotel stay in Berlin; remainder of itinerary as scheduled.

Please accept our apologies for this change so close to your departure. Rest assured, we have extensive experience in dealing with all manner of challenging conditions on the Elbe River and we will do our utmost to provide you with the same services, meals and excellent shore excursions you expected when making your booking with us.

In addition, we are continuing to monitor the situation in cooperation with German and Czech river authorities and your Program Director will update you on board should any additional changes become necessary.

Please note, in consideration of this change, we will be extending a future cruise voucher for 50% of your paid cruise fare. The voucher can be used toward any future voyage with Viking – river or ocean – and will be emailed to you separately; please allow two weeks for delivery.

Alternatively, should you wish to cancel your trip and receive a full refund.

 

Since we are packed and ready to go, we have chosen to cruise.  I am sure Viking will do the best they can and I am certain we will be able to see everything we were promised.  Hope this helps.  

[arlowood]

Hi Upgradefairy4u

 

Many thanks for taking the time to give the full detail of your Viking letter.

My wife and I are booked on a later cruise leaving for Berlin on 16th July then transferring to the Viking Astrild in Wittenberg on the 18th.

I've looked at the long range forecast for the upstream regions of the Elbe in Czechia and there seems little prospect of significant rainfall during July so my guess is that the low water levels will persist and will affect our sailing dates also.

 

We wait to hear from Viking but if our trip is affected in the same way as yours then my wife and I will probably take the cancellation and refund option. I am not a great fan of coach travel at the best of times but was happy to accept the itinerary as originally booked with the benefit of a bit of relaxed river cruising in between.

 

If you have not already done so - take a look at the Tripsavvy account I linked to in an earlier post. Here is the link again

https://www.tripsavvy.com/viking-cruises-elbe-river-travel-journal-4100188

 

This will give you an idea of how Viking handled the coach shuttle operation on a holiday where the ships were marooned by low water. I believe from information supplied by another contributor that this account dates from 2016 due the the reference to certain excursions that don't feature in the current itinerary

Edited July 2, 2019 by arlowood
wrong date

[notamermaid]

The heat has sparked wildfires in the Northeast of Germany, actually there is the suspicion that humans sparked them deliberately. Bad enough, but it gets worse. How do you extinguish a fire on the ground if it is too dangerous to tread on the ground? Unexploded ammunition litters the area: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-07-02/german-wildfires-force-evacuations-as-old-war-munitions-explode

 

And in Torgau the hungerstone has appeared again. The German river cruise Sanssouci is stuck in Magdeburg. A German video report including an interview with the captain. At least the schoolchildren are having fun in the dried-out riverbed: https://www.mdr.de/sachsen/dresden/dresden-radebeul/video-315796_zc-c8c59624_zs-8b18b853.html

 

Note the official graph of the water level in the video.

 

notamermaid

 

[Upgradefairy4u]

On 7/2/2019 at 10:14 AM, arlowood said:

Hi Upgradefairy4u

 

Many thanks for taking the time to give the full detail of your Viking letter.

My wife and I are booked on a later cruise leaving for Berlin on 16th July then transferring to the Viking Astrild in Wittenberg on the 18th.

I've looked at the long range forecast for the upstream regions of the Elbe in Czechia and there seems little prospect of significant rainfall during July so my guess is that the low water levels will persist and will affect our sailing dates also.

 

We wait to hear from Viking but if our trip is affected in the same way as yours then my wife and I will probably take the cancellation and refund option. I am not a great fan of coach travel at the best of times but was happy to accept the itinerary as originally booked with the benefit of a bit of relaxed river cruising in between.

 

If you have not already done so - take a look at the Tripsavvy account I linked to in an earlier post. Here is the link again

https://www.tripsavvy.com/viking-cruises-elbe-river-travel-journal-4100188

 

This will give you an idea of how Viking handled the coach shuttle operation on a holiday where the ships were marooned by low water. I believe from information supplied by another contributor that this account dates from 2016 due the the reference to certain excursions that don't feature in the current itinerary

Thanks so much for the link, I have read it over and over to reassure myself we are making the right decision to continue with going on our trip.  We had less than 72 hours to make a decision plus we are packed!!  I am still working so I don't have the luxury of traveling when I want, I have to go when work permits and we have planned this trip for over a year.  It took some convincing my sister to still go, she is hesitant, but I am reassuring her that it will work out for the best, Viking will make sure of that!!  I am looking forward to seeing the countries, history, and sights (and maybe even a little shopping!!)  Glad also to hear that the weather has broken and is now closer to normal temps.  Bon Voyage!  

[arlowood]

12 hours ago, Upgradefairy4u said:

Thanks so much for the link, I have read it over and over to reassure myself we are making the right decision to continue with going on our trip.  We had less than 72 hours to make a decision plus we are packed!!  I am still working so I don't have the luxury of traveling when I want, I have to go when work permits and we have planned this trip for over a year.  It took some convincing my sister to still go, she is hesitant, but I am reassuring her that it will work out for the best, Viking will make sure of that!!  I am looking forward to seeing the countries, history, and sights (and maybe even a little shopping!!)  Glad also to hear that the weather has broken and is now closer to normal temps.  Bon Voyage!  

Hi there

Appreciate your dilemma but I'm sure you will have a great time despite the alteration to the planned schedule. We have done 4 river and 1 sea cruise with Viking and have found them all to be exceptional. They will look after you very well and ensure that your trip experience is the best that it can be.

 

My wife and I are in a slightly different situation to you. We are both retired and are based in the UK close to 2 airports that fly directly into Germany/Czechia. If we cancel then we can easily take a flight to see the cities and sights at a later date.

 

Have a great trip

[FuelScience]

I wonder if Viking might be offering some last minute deals to people willing to put up with the bus tours in order to fill some of the spots that people are abandoning. I checked the web site, but didn't see any. 

[steamboats]

Wow, only 56 cm at Dresden... that´s quite low...

 

steamboats

[AnhaltER1960]

23 hours ago, Upgradefairy4u said:

 We had less than 72 hours to make a decision plus we are packed!!  I am still working so I don't have the luxury of traveling when I want, I have to go when work permits and we have planned this trip for over a year.  It took some convincing my sister to still go, she is hesitant, but I am reassuring her that it will work out for the best, Viking will make sure of that!!  I am looking forward to seeing the countries, history, and sights (and maybe even a little shopping!!)  Glad also to hear that the weather has broken and is now closer to normal temps.  Bon Voyage!  

 

Certainly you will see any of the sights promised in the itinerary and the Viking crew aboard the ships will deliver all the service you might expect. As roundabout one third of the passengers, maybe some more, will cancel, you will have more personal attention by the crew, have more space in the lounge/the sundeck, on the busses, smaller groups on the excursions. Just, you wont sail an inch.

 

The situation looks to remain unchanged for (at least) the next week. No rain in sight and even a bit of rain will not help.

[arlowood]

14 hours ago, steamboats said:

Wow, only 56 cm at Dresden... that´s quite low...

 

steamboats

Hi there

56cm at Dresden is only part of the story. Several places between Dresden and Wittenberg which is one of the Viking "termini" have lower levels. At Torgau the level is currently (excuse the pun) 42cm, at Pretzsch-Mauken it's only 19cm and at Elster it's 20cm. These figures have been gleaned from tha BfG website and are fairly reliable I would assume

 

https://www.bafg.de/EN/06_Info_Service/01_WaterLevels/waterlevels_node.html

 

As AnhaltER1960 states there does not appear to be any significant rainfall forecast along the length of the Elbe from Saxony into Czechia so it would seem unlikely that cruising can resume for a few weeks yet.

[steamboats]

@arlowood I´m totally aware of the fact that Dresden is only part of the story but it´s a good reference for non Germans. And as (my screenname) I´m also into paddlewheel steamboats I use the river level at Dresden to check the general situation there.

 

steamboats

[AnhaltER1960]

1 hour ago, arlowood said:

Hi there

56cm at Dresden is only part of the story. Several places between Dresden and Wittenberg which is one of the Viking "termini" have lower levels. At Torgau the level is currently (excuse the pun) 42cm, at Pretzsch-Mauken it's only 19cm and at Elster it's 20cm. These figures have been gleaned from tha BfG website and are fairly reliable I would assume

 

Sure, the readings are reliable. However, those readings give only a relative water level against a fixed scale and do not say anything about the depth of the navigation channel. Elster's 20 cm do not mean, you can walk through the river without getting your knees wet. From last year we have learnt that Dresden readings of somewhere between 70  and 80 cm lead to stop of cruise operations. However, the decision to cancel a cruise depends not only on one figure, but on a complex set of figures and forecasts.

 

It is correct though that there are some critical passages between Wittenberg and Torgau, where in some curves the navigation channel is not wide enough. The depth is there, but not across the full width of the river. So long ships get into trouble in curves, the would need more width there, its geometry. The cruise ships of Viking and CoisiEurope draw only 90 cm (give and take few cm), but they are quite long. If they were,say, 20 m shorter, they would do far better at low water levels.

[notamermaid]

AnhaltER1960,

that is really interesting about the bends. Had not thought of that aspect before. We also have a few sharp bends in the Rhine Gorge. They are tricky to navigate. And as you might know are one lane only - regulated by traffic signs. Is it the same on that Elbe stretch?

 

I was a bit shocked to read that over 550km of the Elbe are now on statistical low water again, from before Schöna all the way to Boizenburg. Is that the last gauge before the locks?

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

The Erzgebirge (ore mountains) is now a UNESCO world heritage site. The region lies southwest of Dresden and is shared by Germany and the Czech Republic. Here is the article by Deutsche Welle: https://www.dw.com/en/unesco-declares-erzgebirge-region-a-world-heritage-site/a-49497680

 

And here is one for our US readers: the name dollar for the coin comes via Spanish/Netherlands, ultimately from the silver coin minted in St. Joachimsthal (i.e. the German word (Joachims-)Taler) which is in the Czech part of the ore mountains. I can see for the near future many Americans now taking a selfie in front of this building (the first one in the photo gallery) : https://www.dw.com/en/down-the-mine-discovering-the-erzgebirges-cultural-landscape/g-49370744

 

notamermaid

 

[notamermaid]

Dresden gauge has now dropped to 50cm and with no significant rain in the Upper Elbe area before Friday I doubt it will stay at that. I cannot imagine the four days of substantial rain from Friday to Monday will be enough to give the river back the 30cm it needs to make resuming sailing a sensible notion.

 

The BAfG (German Federal Institute of Hydrology) issued its first report on the low water last week. The outlook is o.k. for the Rhine and Danube for the time being but Elbe and Weser will get worse, as of last Thursday. And today we can see they already are. I am beginning to worry about the Danube now, will it be o.k. till the rain comes. But the Rhine is fine.

 

notamermaid

 

[arlowood]

1 hour ago, notamermaid said:

Dresden gauge has now dropped to 50cm and with no significant rain in the Upper Elbe area before Friday I doubt it will stay at that. I cannot imagine the four days of substantial rain from Friday to Monday will be enough to give the river back the 30cm it needs to make resuming sailing a sensible notion.

 

The BAfG (German Federal Institute of Hydrology) issued its first report on the low water last week. The outlook is o.k. for the Rhine and Danube for the time being but Elbe and Weser will get worse, as of last Thursday. And today we can see they already are. I am beginning to worry about the Danube now, will it be o.k. till the rain comes. But the Rhine is fine.

 

notamermaid

 

Yes, I've been following the long range forecasts for the upper reaches of the Elbe involved in our planned cruise, namely Bad Schandau and Decin in Czechia. At the moment they are forecasting showers for Friday and thunderstorms on Saturday in both areas but nothing on Sunday or Monday. I'm guessing that 2 days of rain will not have a great short term effect on the river levels in the critical area between Dresden and Wittenberg.

 

Have not heard anything yet from Viking but other contributors recently have been contacted about a week before their planned travel date. We are due to fly to Berlin on 16th and join the Astrild on the 18th so I'm anticipating a call in the next day or so. The outlook suggests that our cruise will also be affected by low water levels

[arlowood]

Just had confirmation today from Viking that our cruise will be affected by the low water levels currently affecting a large stretch of the Elbe. We were due to leave for Berlin on 16th July and join the Astrild in Wittenberg on the 18th.

 

As with previous contributors, we were offered a modified itinerary with coach travel to the various sites and a switch of ships from Wittenberg to Dresden part way through. This did not appeal and we have opted to cancel and take a full refund.

 

Looking at the weather outlook it would seem that the possibility for cruising proper to resume in the near future is doubtful. Maybe if significant rainfall is experienced later in July then maybe cruising could start again in August.

 

My reading on the situation is that this low water problem has affected Viking over several of the past years. Maybe they should be reviewing the viability of offering the Elbe itinerary during summer months

 

[Host Jazzbeau]

1 hour ago, arlowood said:

My reading on the situation is that this low water problem has affected Viking over several of the past years. Maybe they should be reviewing the viability of offering the Elbe itinerary during summer months

 

Particularly with this ship design.  The Elbe gets so bad that nobody can sail, but CroisiEurope usually manages longer with their paddlewheel design.

 

[notamermaid]

arlowood,

 

Sorry to hear this. It would not appeal to me either to do this itinerary the "Viking way". Neither ship will sail so I can understand you not going.

 

I hope there will be a better time and another opportunity for you in the future. As jazzbeau has pointed out, CroisiEurope's paddlewheelers are slightly better equipped for low water.

 

notamermaid

 

[Little Toot2]

6 hours ago, arlowood said:

 

Quote

 

Looking at the weather outlook it would seem that the possibility for cruising proper to resume in the near future is doubtful. Maybe if significant rainfall is experienced later in July then maybe cruising could start again in August.

Well, my husband and I have sailed with Viking four times previously:  China in 2004, Russia in 2005, Amsterdam to Budapest in 2009, and Egypt in 2010.... So far we're two for four:  First time we ended up tied to a floating dock along the Yangtze as flooding upstream made it impossible to navigate through the yet to be completed Three Gorges Dam.  Then five years later, our passage along the Danube beyond Regensburg turned into a bus tour due to low water levels.  Unfortunately it's beginning to look as though our 50th Anniversary cruise along the Elbe will also become a bus tour... So much for viewing my ancestral home from the water.

 

Edited July 10, 2019 by Little Toot2

[arlowood]

12 hours ago, Host Jazzbeau said:

 

Particularly with this ship design.  The Elbe gets so bad that nobody can sail, but CroisiEurope usually manages longer with their paddlewheel design.

 

Viking do claim with the Asdtrild and the Beyla that  "Their customised hull and engines are specially built to navigate the historic Elbe river"

 

Obviously the design engineers have not accounted for the extremes in water levels seen in the last 3 or 4 years.

 

Maybe it's a hull length issue or a draft isssue but if the CroisiEurope paddle wheelers fare better in low water then maybe the kjey is how much depth ius below the hull/power unit.

 

An earlier commentator suggested the length was the key in the sections where the river has tight bends. The ships can't make the curves when the water at the edges is too shallow.

Edited July 10, 2019 by arlowood
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