Daily Telegraph (UK) Article

[davyjones]

On Saturday there was an article in the Daily Telegraph (UK) about someone who wanted to cancel their 2021 world cruise due to sudden ill-health.  The gist of the complaint was that Cunard were refusing to allow them to cancel and said they had to pay for the full cruise regardless.  I thought that you could cancel and lose your deposit up to the date the balance was due or are there different rules for the world cruise?

 

DJ

[Windsurfboy]

I also thought that the new consumer protection act rules where that if there was plenty of time for a company to resell the holiday you where entitled to get your deposit back .

 

2021 must be plenty of time ?

[Host Hattie]

The original advice was either that they could cancel and lose their deposit (not the whole amount) or transfer their deposit to a cruise of higher value (these are the standard terms as far as I know).

The headline is very misleading -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/katie-investigates/cruise-doesnt-sail-2021-wont-refund-27k-booking/

 

You would need to register to read the whole article I'm afraid.

 

[T5LHR]

Shock horror! A misleading headline from any mainstream UK news outlet.... 

 

Gutter press. 

[Windsurfboy]

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2019/04/holiday-firms-warned-over-unfair-cancellation-rules/

 

From the above , the cancellation fee must reflect how much the business is losing from the cancellation,  otherwise it can be deemed an unfair contract.

 

If there is a high probability that the holiday will be resold the cancellation fee must just reflect administration cost. One could argue that for a 2021 booking 15% is to high. Hence why we've seen a lot of 5% deposits at launch for some lines.

 

By the time you get to 3 months ahead a 15% cancellation fee could be seen as generous. 

 

But for many people it's easier to claim on insurance than fight a big company for part of their deposit. 

[Fairgarth]

Just beware, y'all.  I have read the article in The Telegraph.  The couple paid a deposit of GBP 4104 in March for a cruise in April 2021.  The husband turned ill and they decided not to set out on a 108-day voyage.  Their agency told them that the deposit was not refundable and that their contract required the balance to be paid taking them up to GBP 27,350.  That's the legal contract and The Telegraph did not dispute that.  Alternatively, their deposit could be transferred to another cruise of equal or greater value.  Read the fine print!!  Once it hit the press, Cunard relented, refunded the deposit and released them from the contract.  The Telegraph says they got lucky this time.  And, as The Telegraph emphasized, buy insurance.  Now!!

 

The Telegraph headline was dead accurate BTW:  "Cruise doesn't sail till 2021 - but it won't refund our 4k deposit."

[kentchris]

4 minutes ago, Fairgarth said:

 

The Telegraph headline was dead accurate BTW:  "Cruise doesn't sail till 2021 - but it won't refund our 4k deposit."

I would put my money on the URL of the article, as quoted by Host Hattie, as reflecting the original title of the article. Even comics like the Telegraph occasionally realise they’ve made a mistake and correct the title of the article. 

[Host Hattie]

2 minutes ago, kentchris said:

I would put my money on the URL of the article, as quoted by Host Hattie, as reflecting the original title of the article. Even comics like the Telegraph occasionally realise they’ve made a mistake and correct the title of the article. 

Correct, that was the headline showing on the website when I made my comment.

[roscoe39]

the article also states that the cruise leaves for 108 nights in APRIL 2021, i can't read the rest of the article but usually the world cruises leave in January....

[Host Hattie]

12 minutes ago, roscoe39 said:

the article also states that the cruise leaves for 108 nights in APRIL 2021, i can't read the rest of the article but usually the world cruises leave in January....

That's pretty typical of the accuracy of the rest of the story.

[Fairgarth]

Dear Katie,

In March my husband and I booked a Cunard 108-night world cruise, which was due to depart in April 2021.

The above is a copy and paste from the Telegraph article referenced by the OP.  It is the original letter from "ST, Derbyshire" to the Telegraph's 'consumer champion'.  At no point does the Telegraph article mention 108 nights or a departure date.  I don't know if the date is accurate or not, but clearly it came from "ST, Derbyshire".

 

 

[yorkshirephil]

I am assuming that the cruise returns in April 2021 (Cunard web site) 

Below is an excerpt from Cunard T&C's. If  a Cunard fare was purchased then all monies should be retrievable, however the saver fare would incur the full cost of the cruise. The saver fare T&C's seem to fall outside of the consumer rights act?  

 

CANCELLATION BY THE PASSENGER 38.

The Passenger has the right to cancel the Contract prior to commencement of the Package without paying any cancellation charge in the event of unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances (as defined in clause 1) significantly affecting the performance of the Contract. In such circumstances the Passenger shall be entitled to a full refund of all monies paid, but shall not be entitled to additional compensation. The Passenger may cancel the Contract at any time prior to the commencement of the Package via their travel agent or, for Passengers who have booked direct, by calling our Reservations Department, but if the cancellation is not as a result of unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances significantly affecting the performance of the Contract, in that event Cunard shall be entitled to levy a cancellation charge as a percentage of the fare paid in accordance with the following scales. The Cunard Fare and Early Saver: Period before departure within which written notice of cancellation is received by Cunard Cancellation charges (percentage of fare) From the date of booking until 91 days before departure Deposit 90 to 57 days 50% 56 to 42 days 60% 41 to 16 days 75% 15 to 6 days 90% Less than 6 days before departure or failure to embark. For fly-cruises, departure day is the date of the flight departure.

100% Saver: Period before departure within which written notice of cancellation is received by Cunard Cancellation charges (percentage of fare) From the date of booking until departure, including failure to embark. 100%

 

39.

It may be possible for the Passenger to re-claim these cancellation charges (less any applicable excess) under the terms of the Passenger’s insurance policy. Claims should be submitted to the appropriate insurer. After departure, if the Passenger disembarks whether by reason of sickness or any other reason the Passenger will not be entitled to a refund of a proportion of the Package not used.

[MelbTone]

ISTM that there has to be some disincentive to cancel, otherwise what would stop anyone booking a number of 2021 cruises on the basis that they'd decide which one to take nearer the time?

[North West Newbie]

4 hours ago, yorkshirephil said:

I am assuming that the cruise returns in April 2021 (Cunard web site) 

Below is an excerpt from Cunard T&C's. If  a Cunard fare was purchased then all monies should be retrievable, however the saver fare would incur the full cost of the cruise. The saver fare T&C's seem to fall outside of the consumer rights act?  

 

CANCELLATION BY THE PASSENGER 38.

The Passenger has the right to cancel the Contract prior to commencement of the Package without paying any cancellation charge in the event of unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances (as defined in clause 1) significantly affecting the performance of the Contract. In such circumstances the Passenger shall be entitled to a full refund of all monies paid, but shall not be entitled to additional compensation. The Passenger may cancel the Contract at any time prior to the commencement of the Package via their travel agent or, for Passengers who have booked direct, by calling our Reservations Department, but if the cancellation is not as a result of unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances significantly affecting the performance of the Contract, in that event Cunard shall be entitled to levy a cancellation charge as a percentage of the fare paid in accordance with the following scales. The Cunard Fare and Early Saver: Period before departure within which written notice of cancellation is received by Cunard Cancellation charges (percentage of fare) From the date of booking until 91 days before departure Deposit 90 to 57 days 50% 56 to 42 days 60% 41 to 16 days 75% 15 to 6 days 90% Less than 6 days before departure or failure to embark. For fly-cruises, departure day is the date of the flight departure.

100% Saver: Period before departure within which written notice of cancellation is received by Cunard Cancellation charges (percentage of fare) From the date of booking until departure, including failure to embark. 100%

 

39.

It may be possible for the Passenger to re-claim these cancellation charges (less any applicable excess) under the terms of the Passenger’s insurance policy. Claims should be submitted to the appropriate insurer. After departure, if the Passenger disembarks whether by reason of sickness or any other reason the Passenger will not be entitled to a refund of a proportion of the Package not used.

But those unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances relate solely to Cunard and it covers all fare types. It does not give the right to passengers to cancel without penalty for their own unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances. The purpose of this clause is to permit a passenger to cancel the Contract without penalty (prior to commencement) in circumstances where the package provided for in the Contract (including any part of the itinerary) cannot be fulfilled by Cunard for the reasons set out therein.

 

Here is the full text from clause 1:-

 

“unavoidable and extraordinary circumstances’’ means a situation beyond the control of Cunard the consequences of which could not have been avoided by Cunard even if all reasonable measures had been taken and which means that Cunard cannot, as a result, provide the Package, or part thereof, including any part of the itinerary, and includes (without limitation) technical problems, war or threat of war, terrorist activity or the threat of terrorist activity, riots, civil commotion, disaster, Act of God, natural and nuclear disaster, fire, closure of ports, strikes or other industrial action, medical problems on board the ship or at intended ports, including, in each case, incidents of infectious or other diseases or illnesses, lawful deviation at sea in response to a distress call or other emergency and adverse weather conditions;

 

Passengers wishing to cancel for any other reason are subject to cancellation charges detailed in the table at clause 38 ranging from the deposit (from 91 days prior to departure) to the full cost (less than 6 days) in the case of the Cunard and Early Saver Fares. The Saver Fare is 100% irrespective of cancellation date.

[North West Newbie]

2 hours ago, MelbTone said:

ISTM that there has to be some disincentive to cancel, otherwise what would stop anyone booking a number of 2021 cruises on the basis that they'd decide which one to take nearer the time?

See my post above. The disincentive is the cancellation charge.

[Windsurfboy]

The cancellation charges can only reflect the costs Cunard has as a result of the cancellation.  If they are greater than that then it's deemed an unfair contract. 

 

In theory if for example you can prove  that Cunard has resold the cabin, which you can do for a Cunard fare, then the cancellation fee must just reflect just the administration costs no more.

 

In practice it's easier to claim on insurance than fight Cunard. However as many cruises are opened for booking nearly two years ahead and many insurance companies do not allow policies that far in advance especially for existing medical conditions.  You may not be insured . 

 

In this case you either try the publicity approach as these people did. If not you can keep checking your cabin number on The website and try again if they resell it. In that case final course of action is small claims court.

 

Logically,  cruise lines should have a staged deposit,  say 5% on opening,  and 15% at 1 year. This would fit in with consumer protection.  If not then they should be more generous with very early  cancellation. However they are still entitled to a cancellation fee that covers their costs nevermind how early you cancel. A £100 to £200 or so would not be unreasonable.  They are allowed to charge enough to deter multiple spurious bookings.

 

 

[yorkshirephil]

All cruise lines I have travelled with do have a staged deposit, for Cunard fare this is set out in my previous post above. If a saver fare is purchased then 100% of the fare is required on cancellation, which I think is ridiculous for a cruise booked 2 years in advance which is why I also think a saver fare has been purchased and the TA has quoted this to the OP. 

 

I agree that it is not unreasonable for the TA/cruise line to add a cancellation fee and maybe the OP would have accepted that?

 

[Windsurfboy]

32 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

All cruise lines I have travelled with do have a staged deposit, for Cunard fare this is set out in my previous post above. If a saver fare is purchased then 100% of the fare is required on cancellation, which I think is ridiculous for a cruise booked 2 years in advance which is why I also think a saver fare has been purchased and the TA has quoted this to the OP. 

 

I agree that it is not unreasonable for the TA/cruise line to add a cancellation fee and maybe the OP would have accepted that?

 

 

My experience of Cunard is 15% upfront  whether it's 2 years in advance or 6 months in advance. By staged I meant  5% at 2 years in advance,  then say another 10% at say 9 months in advance and full payment at 3 months as now.

 

Loosing 15% at 2 years in advance is not compatible with the consumer protection rules. Alternatively could be asked to pay 15% at 2 years in advance but  it could be made clear that until say a year in advance 2/3 of this was refundable. Cancellation fee can be less than deposit. 

[kentchris]

25 minutes ago, yorkshirephil said:

All cruise lines I have travelled with do have a staged deposit, for Cunard fare this is set out in my previous post above. If a saver fare is purchased then 100% of the fare is required on cancellation, which I think is ridiculous for a cruise booked 2 years in advance which is why I also think a saver fare has been purchased and the TA has quoted this to the OP. 

 

I agree that it is not unreasonable for the TA/cruise line to add a cancellation fee and maybe the OP would have accepted that?

 

The only fares offered on Cunard's web site for either 2021 World Voyage are Cunard Fare for all cabins including Grills, plus Early Saver with 15% deposit for Britannia cabins only. Nobody is risking of 100% of the fare two years in advance. 

 

The story as reported simply doesn't add up so all we're left with is speculation about what the TA did or didn't book.

[BlueRiband]

The husband had some serious health issues prior to their booking and his condition worsened.  They were not going to entirely loss their deposit.  They could have applied it to another cruise but chose not to. 

 

This a variation of something we see here on CC from time to time: Something terrible happens and the passenger had no insurance.  The T&Cs limit their refund.  Then they go to the news media to complain how heartless and greedy is the evil cruise line.  Viola, public shame causes the cruise line to capitualte. 

 

World cruises are in an entirely different class compared to other sailings.  The duration of the time away and the complexity of obtaining multiple visas requires committments far in advance even a year and a half out.  Those staterooms are blocked for the entire voyage and not available for shorter segments unless released much later.   

Imagine the legal mess if passengers were refunded based on a cruise line's ability to re-sell a cabin! Somebody pays $4000 and has to cancel.  The cruise line sells it at a promotional $2500.  Would the original passenger be happy to recover $2500?  I don't think so.  Instead we would read that the heartless and greedy cruise line kept $1500 and had no incentive to sell it at a better price. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Windsurfboy]

1 hour ago, BlueRiband said:

Imagine the legal mess if passengers were refunded based on a cruise line's ability to re-sell a cabin! Somebody pays $4000 and has to cancel.  The cruise line sells it at a promotional $2500.  Would the original passenger be happy to recover $2500?  I don't think so.  Instead we would read that the heartless and greedy cruise line kept $1500 and had no incentive to sell it at a better price. 

 

 

 

 

Unfortunately  consumer protection rules are just that, they are linked to the companies ability to resell and the price they may get, hence cancellation 2 years in advance must be treated differently to cancellation 4 months in advance. It tries to be fair to both sides.

 

If you don't like it blame the politicians, civil servants and lawyers who drafted the laws. 

[North West Newbie]

Whether we like it or not, the cancellation charges are transparent and abundantly clear at the time of booking. If one is not in agreement then don’t proceed with the booking.

 

The only fair arena to test the fairness between the parties is in Court but then of course the only winners are likely to be the lawyers. Naming and attempting to shame Cunard in the press or social media is not a balanced approach even though it may result in a satisfactory solution for the disgruntled passenger. Fairness is a two way street.

[Windsurfboy]

Clear and transparent doesn't always mean they follow the consumer protection regulations, which is why competition authorities have told big holiday companies to look at contracts. 

 

The people who have the most to gain sorting this out are the insurance companies, as they often end up paying,  interesting to see what they do,  if anything. 

[BlueRiband]

9 hours ago, Windsurfboy said:

Clear and transparent doesn't always mean they follow the consumer protection regulations, which is why competition authorities have told big holiday companies to look at contracts. 

 

The people who have the most to gain sorting this out are the insurance companies, as they often end up paying,  interesting to see what they do,  if anything. 

On my last visit to London one hotel offered a promotional rate with these conditions: full and immediate payment up front, no refunds, no changes.  Clear and transparent.  Should the hotel still owe me a refund if I chose to cancel?  Why pay the higher refundable rate if I can use media pressure to get a refund despite the stated T&C?  (I chose not to book it because I didn't like those terms.)  

 

Something bad happening is precisely what travel insurance is for but the couple obviously didn't buy it.  To be fair the husband was probably uninsurable given his medical history,  but then that begs the question as to why this couple would even consider such a long and demanding travel itinerary.

[Windsurfboy]

 

8 hours ago, BlueRiband said:

On my last visit to London one hotel offered a promotional rate with these conditions: full and immediate payment up front, no refunds, no changes.  Clear and transparent.  Should the hotel still owe me a refund if I chose to cancel?  Why pay the higher refundable rate if I can use media pressure to get a refund despite the stated T&C?  (I chose not to book it because I didn't like those terms.)  

 

Something bad happening is precisely what travel insurance is for but the couple obviously didn't buy it.  To be fair the husband was probably uninsurable given his medical history,  but then that begs the question as to why this couple would even consider such a long and demanding travel itinerary.

 

I didn't  make the consumer protection regulations, which now state cancellation charges can only reflect the costs the company incurs. I'm just stating what they are.

 

Terms and conditions have yet to catch up with law and that won't happen until they are challenged successfully in court . 

 

Presumably it's a similiar law but perhaps stronger in US that means deposits on cruises are refundable in full until final payment,  if it wasn't for the law then US terms and conditions would not be as generous