JUST IN: CONSTELLATION FEB. 16 EMBARKATION PORT CHANGE

[RobertybobUK]

14 hours ago, nomad098 said:

For those that booked in the UK/EU I would point out this 

 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/634/regulation/11/made

 

Alteration of other package travel contract terms

11.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) The organiser must not unilaterally change the terms of a package travel contract before the start of the package, other than the price in accordance with regulation 10, unless—

(a)the contract allows the organiser to make such changes;

(b)the change is insignificant; and

(c)the organiser informs the traveller of the change in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium.

(3) Paragraphs (4) to (11) apply where, before the start of the package, the organiser—

(a)is constrained by circumstances beyond the control of the organiser to alter significantly any of the main characteristics of the travel services specified in paragraphs 1 to 10 of Schedule 1;

(b)cannot fulfil the special requirements specified in paragraph 1 of Schedule 5; or

(c)proposes to increase the price of the package by more than 8% in accordance with regulation 10(4).

(4) The organiser must, without undue delay, inform the traveller in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium, of—

(a)the proposed changes referred to in paragraph (3) and, where appropriate, in accordance with paragraph (7), their impact on the price of the package;

(b)a reasonable period within which the traveller must inform the organiser of the decision pursuant to paragraph (5);

(c)the consequences of the traveller’s failure to respond within the period referred to in sub-paragraph (b); and

(d)any substitute package, of an equivalent or higher quality, if possible, offered to the traveller and its price.

(5) The traveller may, within a reasonable period specified by the organiser—

(a)accept the proposed changes; or

(b)terminate the contract without paying a termination fee.

(6) Where the traveller terminates the contract pursuant to paragraph (5)(b), the traveller may accept a substitute package, where this is offered by the organiser.

(7) Where—

(a)the changes to the package travel contract referred to in paragraph (3), or

(b)the substitute package referred to in paragraph (6),

result in a package of lower quality or cost, the traveller is entitled to an appropriate price reduction.

(8) Where—

(a)the traveller terminates the contract pursuant to paragraph (5)(b), and

(b)the traveller does not accept a substitute package,

the organiser must refund all payments made by or on behalf of the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the contract is terminated.

(9) Where paragraph (8) applies, regulation 16(2) to (10) applies.

(10) Where the traveller does not confirm, within the period specified in paragraph (5), whether the traveller wishes to—

(a)accept the proposed change, or

(b)terminate the contract,

in accordance with that paragraph, the organiser must notify the traveller, a second time, of the matters in sub-paragraphs (a) to (d) of paragraph (4).

(11) If, having been notified under paragraph (10), the traveller fails to respond, the organiser may terminate the contract and refund all payments made by or on behalf of the traveller without undue delay and in any event not later than 14 days after the contract is terminated.

 

Would probably be worth a call to Celebrity to point this out and if you booked in the UK stating your next call would be to ABTA as per your cruise contract to lodge a formal complaint. In the EU I believe it is the EU Online Dispute Resolution ( ODR )

 

 

 

Hi

This is a very difficult and I'm sure stressful situation for all those that it affects, and my sympathies go out to them all.

Whilst a very useful post, just a slight word of caution though.

As stated at the beginning of the quote above, what followed relates to package travel.

A package is when a consumer buys more than one element of a holiday together, e.g. flights + accommodation, or in this case flights + cruise, but it could be other elements, not including the flights that make it a package. (e.g. Cruise + excursions - see What is a Package Holiday? below). 

In this case, Celebrity appears to be offering alternative arrangements for those who have booked flights and the cruise directly with them, so not an immediate issue there. The issue and point of some of the discussion here has been where the flights have been booked independently and here it becomes a bit more complicated.

The above link and quote comes from The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018. 

These came about because of changes in the way people book their holidays, going away from a traditional 'package' and moving to, for example, situations where you may use an online travel service (e.g. Expedia -  many others are available), to book the separate elements from different providers and combine them as one booking. 

ABTA, the UK travel trade association has an article that provides a bit more of a user friendly explanation here https://www.abta.com/tips-and-advice/is-my-holiday-protected/new-package-travel-regulations

Some quotes here though:-

• The new regulations only apply to holiday travel arrangements booked on or after 1 July [2018]. If you have booked a package holiday before 1 July, your package holiday will be covered by previous regulation. Package holidays that are for less than 24 hours, or are for business travel, may not be covered by the regulations.
• More holiday travel arrangements will be classified as packages. A ‘ready-made’ holiday (this is usually where you book through one company and pay one price) will still be classed as a package holiday. But so too will holidays sold in other ways – for example, many tailor-made trips and shopping basket type sales on websites (where you select the different elements such as flight and hotel). 
• Package holidays offer the best form of protection. Financial protection means you are entitled to a refund or to be brought home if necessary should the travel company organising your package go out of business. You’re also protected if elements of the holiday aren’t provided as required, for example the right to a refund if bad weather means your holiday can’t go ahead.
• Linked travel arrangement is a new arrangement under the Package Travel Regulations. This is not a package and the level of protection is significantly lower than if you bought a package holiday. It comes with limited financial protection in case the company that sold it goes bust, but complaints about each holiday service will have to be taken up with the individual suppliers.
• If you have booked your travel arrangements separately (eg – a flight directly with an airline and a hotel through an accommodation booking website), these are unlikely to have any financial or legal protection under the 2018 Package Travel Regulations. However, you might have certain protection for the individual services in other ways – either through travel insurance or through booking with your debit or credit card. Please check with your providers as levels of protection vary.

What is a Package Holiday?

A package holiday is a combination of at least two different types of travel services, which are listed below: 

• transport (such as a flight, coach or train but not transfers from an airport)
• accommodation (such as a hotel, villa or apartment)
• car rental 
• a tourist service (such as a tour guide or a trip to a historical attraction) where this is a significant part of the holiday either because of its value or because it is an essential part of the trip.

It counts as a package holiday if your travel company:

• Has asked you to pay a single price through a single payment 
• Has let you select a combination of services – such as a flight and accommodation – before you agreed to pay for them
• Charged you an inclusive or total price for all the services you bought
• Advertised or sold the travel services to you as a package or similar term
• Sold you one travel service; and then transferred your details, including your payment details to another company which you then booked another travel service through within the space of 24 hours.

I'm not a travel or legal expert and the advice given by nomad098 is good "Would probably be worth a call to Celebrity to point this out and if you booked in the UK stating your next call would be to ABTA".

[Mark_T]

55 minutes ago, GastroGnome said:

 

This is indeed the problem.  X's conditions of cariage - the contract - expressly allows for X to make changes.  The ABTA rules allow for that.

 

The Consumer Credit regulations may apply for anyone who has paid by Credit Card on the basis that the product received was not that paid for.  And some Travel Insurance (just checked mine..) does hold for flight changes  / cancellations in the event of pandemic.  I'll bet a lot of providers are changing their terms for new buisness though.  Thankfully we have annual insurance which renewed before all this started!

 

No, X can put what it wants in the CoC it has no impact on their obligations to those who contract with them in the UK.

 

... and as Nomad already pointed out, ABTA is irrelevant when it comes to the legal rights of UK contracted guests.

[Mark_T]

11 minutes ago, RobertybobUK said:

Hi

This is a very difficult and I'm sure stressful situation for all those that it affects, and my sympathies go out to them all.

Whilst a very useful post, just a slight word of caution though.

As stated at the beginning of the quote above, what followed relates to package travel...

 

 

The cruise on its own qualifies as a 'package' so the right to cancel and receive a full refund for the cruise is protected.

 

The flights if booked separately are not going to be the responsibility of Celebrity though as you point out.

 

[JBare]

1 hour ago, nomad098 said:

 

I have had a look at a number of UK contracts and cannot find "COC as per 11-2 (a)", or on US contracts

 

If you could provide a link this would be helpful.

 

I did find this on Celebrity UK site

 

https://www.celebritycruises.co.uk/key-rights/

 

I draw your attention to bullet points 6,7.9.10 and 11.

 

In the UK/EU  a change of embarkation/disembarkation port or missing more than a third of ports constitutes a significant change.

 

 

 

I believe BO is referring  to the document you yourself posted earlier, I may be wrong.

 

11.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) The organiser must not unilaterally change the terms of a package travel contract before the start of the package, other than the price in accordance with regulation 10, unless—

(a)the contract allows the organiser to make such changes;

 

[upwarduk]

26 minutes ago, RobertybobUK said:

As stated at the beginning of the quote above, what followed relates to package travel.

Cruise with Air constitutes a ‘package’ which we always book if we need to fly.

The UK T&C which include ABTA ( and I believe the TA’s also subscribe to ATOL) is one of the reasons why UK cruises often cost more. 

[nomad098]

I

6 minutes ago, RobertybobUK said:

Hi

This is a very difficult and I'm sure stressful situation for all those that it affects, and my sympathies go out to them all.

Whilst a very useful post, just a slight word of caution though.

As stated at the beginning of the quote above, what followed relates to package travel.

A package is when a consumer buys more than one element of a holiday together, e.g. flights + accommodation, or in this case flights + cruise, but it could be other elements, not including the flights that make it a package. (e.g. Cruise + excursions - see What is a Package Holiday? below). 

In this case, Celebrity appears to be offering alternative arrangements for those who have booked flights and the cruise directly with them, so not an immediate issue there. The issue and point of some of the discussion here has been where the flights have been booked independently and here it becomes a bit more complicated.

The above link and quote comes from The Package Travel and Linked Travel Arrangements Regulations 2018. 

These came about because of changes in the way people book their holidays, going away from a traditional 'package' and moving to, for example, situations where you may use an online travel service (e.g. Expedia -  many others are available), to book the separate elements from different providers and combine them as one booking. 

ABTA, the UK travel trade association has an article that provides a bit more of a user friendly explanation here https://www.abta.com/tips-and-advice/is-my-holiday-protected/new-package-travel-regulations

Some quotes here though:-

• The new regulations only apply to holiday travel arrangements booked on or after 1 July [2018]. If you have booked a package holiday before 1 July, your package holiday will be covered by previous regulation. Package holidays that are for less than 24 hours, or are for business travel, may not be covered by the regulations.
• More holiday travel arrangements will be classified as packages. A ‘ready-made’ holiday (this is usually where you book through one company and pay one price) will still be classed as a package holiday. But so too will holidays sold in other ways – for example, many tailor-made trips and shopping basket type sales on websites (where you select the different elements such as flight and hotel). 
• Package holidays offer the best form of protection. Financial protection means you are entitled to a refund or to be brought home if necessary should the travel company organising your package go out of business. You’re also protected if elements of the holiday aren’t provided as required, for example the right to a refund if bad weather means your holiday can’t go ahead.
• Linked travel arrangement is a new arrangement under the Package Travel Regulations. This is not a package and the level of protection is significantly lower than if you bought a package holiday. It comes with limited financial protection in case the company that sold it goes bust, but complaints about each holiday service will have to be taken up with the individual suppliers.
• If you have booked your travel arrangements separately (eg – a flight directly with an airline and a hotel through an accommodation booking website), these are unlikely to have any financial or legal protection under the 2018 Package Travel Regulations. However, you might have certain protection for the individual services in other ways – either through travel insurance or through booking with your debit or credit card. Please check with your providers as levels of protection vary.

What is a Package Holiday?

A package holiday is a combination of at least two different types of travel services, which are listed below: 

• transport (such as a flight, coach or train but not transfers from an airport)
• accommodation (such as a hotel, villa or apartment)
• car rental 
• a tourist service (such as a tour guide or a trip to a historical attraction) where this is a significant part of the holiday either because of its value or because it is an essential part of the trip.

It counts as a package holiday if your travel company:

• Has asked you to pay a single price through a single payment 
• Has let you select a combination of services – such as a flight and accommodation – before you agreed to pay for them
• Charged you an inclusive or total price for all the services you bought
• Advertised or sold the travel services to you as a package or similar term
• Sold you one travel service; and then transferred your details, including your payment details to another company which you then booked another travel service through within the space of 24 hours.

I'm not a travel or legal expert and the advice given by nomad098 is good "Would probably be worth a call to Celebrity to point this out and if you booked in the UK stating your next call would be to ABTA".

 

This was all settled a while ago back in the 1990's I believe

 

A cruise in context we are talking about is a package holiday ABTA have agreed with this so have the cruiselines

 

The EU directive specifically stated that a ferry crossing with a nights accommodation does not constitute a package holiday however a cruise holiday in the context we are talking about  consisting of both your transportation on the ship and accommodation on the ship does 

 

 

[JBare]

44 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

Again, personal opinion, if we were on this cruise and had made our own flight arrangements we would not be cancelling.

 

You can still purchase flights from London to Dubai for arrival early morning on the 16th for around £400 each. So yes there would be a shortfall in what Celebrity are offering to cover flight changes but not enough to make us give up the cruise. We'd make the changes and then argue about the shortfall with insurance and celebrity later.

 

 

Same here, also currently there are five flights a day on 14th and 15th from Singapore to Dubai, economy £450 pp, yesterday they were £350, go figure !! I'd be tempted to continue to Singapore and get one of those flights if time allowed, which might not be possible for everyone but its a thought.

[nomad098]

29 minutes ago, JBare said:

 

I believe BO is referring  to the document you yourself posted earlier, I may be wrong.

 

11.—(1) The provisions of this regulation are implied as a term in every package travel contract.

(2) The organiser must not unilaterally change the terms of a package travel contract before the start of the package, other than the price in accordance with regulation 10, unless—

(a)the contract allows the organiser to make such changes;

 

 

I guess BO forgot to read the next section

 

(b)the change is insignificant; and

(c)the organiser informs the traveller of the change in a clear, comprehensible and prominent manner on a durable medium

 

The change from one country to another for disembarkation is not "insignificant" this would include substantive costs for the traveller as well as inconvenience. 

[Mark_T]

44 minutes ago, JBare said:

 

Same here, also currently there are five flights a day on 14th and 15th from Singapore to Dubai, economy £450 pp, yesterday they were £350, go figure !! I'd be tempted to continue to Singapore and get one of those flights if time allowed, which might not be possible for everyone but its a thought.

Only reason I might caution against that, is that in a fluid and evolving situation like this, I'd hate to find that Singapore had been added to the list of places you are not allowed to transit through at the last minute...

Edited February 12, 2020 by Mark_T

[JBare]

6 minutes ago, Mark_T said:

Only reason I might caution against that, is that in a fluidly and evolving situation like this, I'd hate to find that Singapore had been added to the list of places you are not allowed to transit through at the last minute...

Of course, and thats a real risk unfortunately.

We are probably lucky in Europe that many flights to Singapore are via Dubai, mine always are, its the other continental travellers with real difficulties.

Edited February 12, 2020 by JBare

[clojacks]

2 hours ago, upwarduk said:

It’s against Forum rules to promote FB.

But there is mention on private groups.

 

2 hours ago, upwarduk said:

It’s against Forum rules to promote FB.

But there is mention on private groups.

I hope the moderators/hosts realize my intent was not to promote FB, which I am quite certain I didn’t do, but rather to try to gain some information on how best to respond to the cruise lines in this terribly handled situation, but if they need to delete my post, I understand.

[DYKWIA]

4 hours ago, Mark_T said:

 

No, X can put what it wants in the CoC it has no impact on their obligations to those who contract with them in the UK.

 

... and as Nomad already pointed out, ABTA is irrelevant when it comes to the legal rights of UK contracted guests.

Yes!

A contract doesn't give the right to someone to make it a condition that they are allowed to break the law with respect to you and your rights and neither can you give permission to break the law in your case.  If Paragraph 14567 subsection 85(J)(i) said "By signing this contract you give then operator permission to hit you on the head with a cricket bat" the fact you signed not knowing this condition wouldn't make it lawful for them to do hit you with a  cricket bat.

 

EU Law (Article 50) places wider requirements with respect to fairness and transparency of contracts not individually negotiated with a consumer

https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-contracts/index_en.htm

 

In this case I think Celebrity have tried to rely on the Bluff and Panic Act 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by DYKWIA

[kinshasa]

20 hours ago, Mark_T said:

Only reason I might caution against that, is that in a fluid and evolving situation like this, I'd hate to find that Singapore had been added to the list of places you are not allowed to transit through at the last minute...

How a global city helped to spread coronavirus https://a.msn.com/r/2/BBZWp7a?m=en-us&referrerID=InAppShare
 

[Bo1953]

On 2/12/2020 at 3:21 AM, clojacks said:

After reading the comments about airing concerns on social media, I tried to see what activity there has been on Facebook and Twitter in Celebrity accounts, and in view of the recent issues, I couldn’t hardly find any! In addition, their Twitter page doesn’t even have a link for sending  DM’s. I then tried Celebrity Constellation as a search on both Social Media platforms and found even less. If anybody has come across any activity concerning these changes to itineraries on Social Media, I’d be curious to see a link....

 

Pleas,e going forward, just use 'other social media' or the like as specifically naming these platforms can get the post deleted...

 

Most of us are familiar with what the term 'social media' means and have possibly visited any of them from time to time or frequently.

 

bon voyage