Ruby Princess police investigation

[Aus Traveller]

5 minutes ago, Blackduck59 said:

Wouldn't it be better to contact NSW Police? Give them the opportunity to do a proper investigation. I'm not sure there is any media outlet that feels a duty to report the truth anymore. They pick a position then report out of context to support their narrative, it's so sad.

I agree with that comment - contact NSW Police if you don't get the survey. However, the Police might be in the process of sending out the questionnaires and maybe they are more likely to go out on a normal working day, rather than a weekend. 

[Aus Traveller]

3 hours ago, christodan said:

Interesting read. The title of the article is completely wrong of course. Other inaccuracies such as the ship was deemed medium risk is there. It was deemed  low risk as I saw the Dr Chant from NSW health  on TV say that herself.

But I am glad they are pointing out that people from the gov here are putting lives at risk by sending the ship out of Australian waters. 

Also at the end of the article  they would like to hear from anyone who knows more about this. It would be good if anyone who was on it gave their side of the story which could give more balance.

https://www.smh.com.au/national/company-knew-virus-was-running-rampant-on-ruby-princess-court-told-20200417-p54kx0.html

This is an 'interesting' article. It is very sad that one of the US passengers died, but I thought the grounds in their lawsuit are laughable. However, I don't feel like laughing. Here is a relevant part of the article.

 

The overseas lawsuit, filed on Wednesday, sensationally accuses the corporate office of Princess Cruises of being aware of coronavirus outbreaks not only during the now infamous voyage from March 8 to 19 but also the voyage beforehand from February 24 to March 8.

The company had placed “profits over the safety of its passengers” and was grossly negligent when it allowed passengers including Mr Chen to join the “infected” ship on March 8, the complaint says.

Passengers boarded without proper screening alongside crew who had already been exposed to the virus and some of whom had “[come] down with the symptoms”, it alleges.

Soon, coronavirus was “running rampant” on the second voyage around New Zealand, and when Princess Cruises became aware, it added “insult to injury” by failing to quarantine passengers.

“They didn’t even bother to notify the passengers that there was an actual outbreak, allowing the sailing to continue as if it were a normal cruise, up until the time it returned to Australia three days early,” the complaint says.

 

None of those grounds that are quoted from the lawsuit, are correct. I hope Princess doesn't settle the lawsuit to make it go away. They need to defend this because none of the 'grounds' are correct.

[christodan]

What irks me whether Carnival wins or not is that we will all be paying higher prices on future cruises to pay for these frivolous lawsuits. 

[possum52]

3 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

This is an 'interesting' article. It is very sad that one of the US passengers died, but I thought the grounds in their lawsuit are laughable. However, I don't feel like laughing. Here is a relevant part of the article.

 

The overseas lawsuit, filed on Wednesday, sensationally accuses the corporate office of Princess Cruises of being aware of coronavirus outbreaks not only during the now infamous voyage from March 8 to 19 but also the voyage beforehand from February 24 to March 8.

The company had placed “profits over the safety of its passengers” and was grossly negligent when it allowed passengers including Mr Chen to join the “infected” ship on March 8, the complaint says.

Passengers boarded without proper screening alongside crew who had already been exposed to the virus and some of whom had “[come] down with the symptoms”, it alleges.

Soon, coronavirus was “running rampant” on the second voyage around New Zealand, and when Princess Cruises became aware, it added “insult to injury” by failing to quarantine passengers.

“They didn’t even bother to notify the passengers that there was an actual outbreak, allowing the sailing to continue as if it were a normal cruise, up until the time it returned to Australia three days early,” the complaint says.

 

None of those grounds that are quoted from the lawsuit, are correct. I hope Princess doesn't settle the lawsuit to make it go away. They need to defend this because none of the 'grounds' are correct.

The lawyer for the US mother and daughter who have filed the lawsuit was on ABC TV news this morning. I was hoping the interviewer would ask her why her clients went on the cruise as they would have known how Covid 19 was spreading around the world before they boarded Ruby Princess. She did ask and the lawyer answered that her clients were assured by Princess that they would be safe. 

 

Leigh

[christodan]

10 minutes ago, possum52 said:

The lawyer for the US mother and daughter who have filed the lawsuit was on ABC TV news this morning. I was hoping the interviewer would ask her why her clients went on the cruise as they would have known how Covid 19 was spreading around the world before they boarded Ruby Princess. She did ask and the lawyer answered that her clients were assured by Princess that they would be safe. 

 

Leigh

Based on advice from NSW health. Since when is a cruise company supposed to be a medical expert on a new virus that emerge only two- three months beforehand?

 

If the passengers were truly concerned they should have consulted medical professionals.

Edited April 18, 2020 by christodan

[Aus Traveller]

39 minutes ago, christodan said:

Based on advice from NSW health. Since when is a cruise company supposed to be a medical expert on a new virus that emerge only two- three months beforehand?

 

If the passengers were truly concerned they should have consulted medical professionals.

Agreed. I also think it is unlikely that they were "assured by Princess that they would be safe." Do they have that in writing? I don't think any tour operator would assure a client that they "would be safe". There are so many possible ways a passenger could injure themselves or become ill. I wonder who is supposed to have assured them they would be safe - one of the security staff who check them on board maybe?

[DiamondFour]

2 hours ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

Yes, but if the NSW Police is cherry-picking who it sends the questionaires to then it would be pointless to contact them. I agree that the media don't report the truth but they do like reporting anything that is sensationalism, and hints of irregularities in the send out of the questionaires would probably be sensationalist enough. 🙄

 

Argh! I'm becoming too cynical. I'm heading back onboard the virtual cruise. It's much more fun.  

I would have said the same thing about cherry-picking.

 

Though my lean on this is a major time delay tactic so that the public will forget about it and give them time to sweep it under the carpet. Ultimately I do not think there will be any evidence that the cruise line acted negligently or conducted any actions that were criminal.

 

Where do you draw the line?

 

Was our Border Force and Government negligent for first allowing our international borders to remain open?

What duty of care did our government owe Princess cruises in regards to the influx of international passengers coming to Australia to do a cruise?

What advanced screening took place at our international entry points at airports to monitor for sick passengers?

 

To even suggest Princess Cruises acted negligently or criminally you must compare them to another reasonable operation such as international immigration at airports. How similar was screening at our airports, were arrivals being warned about the possibility of a virus?

 

This is just a witch hunt to get Princess I am afraid. It has permanently damaged the reputation of the NSW police in my eyes forever. There are so many variables at play here and all we are hearing about is how bad Princess was.

 

I have a lifetimes worth of experience with Princess and I could tell you all the good things and all the bad things about the company. From my experience Princess is not the sort of company that acts in the way that is being alleged in the news and by authorities.

[possum52]

1 hour ago, Aus Traveller said:

Agreed. I also think it is unlikely that they were "assured by Princess that they would be safe." Do they have that in writing? I don't think any tour operator would assure a client that they "would be safe". There are so many possible ways a passenger could injure themselves or become ill. I wonder who is supposed to have assured them they would be safe - one of the security staff who check them on board maybe?

They and other passengers supposedly phoned Princess to get assured all would be fine on their cruise. 

[DiamondFour]

Just take a look at the roll call for the March 8th Ruby Princess cruise. The virus was discussed in the weeks leading up to the cruise. Of course they were informed that there was that risk that existed in the world in general.

[Aus Traveller]

I recall that the Police Commissioner said he believed the virus was taken on board by a crew member, someone working int he galley or a waiter. When he was queried on it, he admitted it was his theory. Now today's Weekend Australian  has an item about the Ruby that includes the statement "The outbreak is believed to have been traced back to a crew member working in the galley.

 

What was a theory is now stated as a fact, even though it isn't logical considering the infection rates among the passengers compared with infection rates among the crew. I am positive that if it had really been traced back to a crew member, that fact would have been shouted from the rooftops. However, when it is proven not to be so, we probably won't hear a word about it.

[christodan]

16 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

"The outbreak is believed to have been traced back to a crew member working in the galley.

 

And yet my partner just told me that experts believe that it is impossible that the virus spreads through food handling as it is going into a person's acidic stomach as opposed to down the respiratory tract.

[BRANDEE]

21 minutes ago, possum52 said:

They and other passengers supposedly phoned Princess to get assured all would be fine on their cruise. 

 

14 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

Just take a look at the roll call for the March 8th Ruby Princess cruise. The virus was discussed in the weeks leading up to the cruise. Of course they were informed that there was that risk that existed in the world in general.

I said it before and I'll say again..If Princess is found to be guilty of lying about covid aboard the cruise prior to Mar 8 and are in cahoots with the health department..then they too deserve to be sued/prosecuted.  However, I doubt this..just irresponsible reporting so far.  All guilt for screwing up goes to the health department that let the ship dock. 

 

I am very sorry about the passenger from California, obviously that document was written by the lawyers..so many inaccuracies.  And not to speak ill of the dead.. not to be aware of covid risk while traveling, especially after the Diamond Princess incident in the beginning of February is a big stretch. 

 

Princess was offering refunds right up to the day of the sailing if passengers had a change of heart.  We all got extra OBC for just getting on the ship and not canceling.  Princess is a business and to expect them to say..don't go on the ship you might get sick..??

 

What many  international passengers were given..by reading notices from the Australian health department and border patrol, was a statement that they would be very diligent in keeping sick people out of their country and ports.  Monitoring of travellers would be done and strict standards on medicines and food items would be made.  And do not argue with Australian immigration officers, they are very strict and they are the last say. You will be fined, you will be denied entry into the country.  Maybe that was the false sense of security some of us had.  Not from Princess but the health and border patrol.

[BRANDEE]

38 minutes ago, DiamondFour said:

Just take a look at the roll call for the March 8th Ruby Princess cruise. The virus was discussed in the weeks leading up to the cruise. Of course they were informed that there was that risk that existed in the world in general.

If you did not know about the risk, then your head was up your ass.  As an adult, it was up to you to make a decision.  I did..I may regret it now, but I made it, of course, thinking all would be okay.  Wrong! Again, the NSW Health department failed at their job in the end!

Edited April 18, 2020 by BRANDEE

[BRANDEE]

25 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

I recall that the Police Commissioner said he believed the virus was taken on board by a crew member, someone working int he galley or a waiter. When he was queried on it, he admitted it was his theory. Now today's Weekend Australian  has an item about the Ruby that includes the statement "The outbreak is believed to have been traced back to a crew member working in the galley.

 

What was a theory is now stated as a fact, even though it isn't logical considering the infection rates among the passengers compared with infection rates among the crew. I am positive that if it had really been traced back to a crew member, that fact would have been shouted from the rooftops. However, when it is proven not to be so, we probably won't hear a word about it.

What about the theory that since 2/3's of the passengers were Australian, odds are an Australian brought it on. Called simple math.  But we will never know and it will not change the outcome...people died.

[Aus Traveller]

49 minutes ago, possum52 said:

They and other passengers supposedly phoned Princess to get assured all would be fine on their cruise. 

Ah yes. And maybe spoke to a call-centre operator. What are they supposed to tell them? You could get seasick, you could catch noro virus, you could fall down the stairs, you could ......... and catch COVID.

[Aus Traveller]

9 minutes ago, christodan said:

 

And yet my partner just told me that experts believe that it is impossible that the virus spreads through food handling as it is going into a person's acidic stomach as opposed to down the respiratory tract.

That is correct. We discussed this issue on this thread yesterday or maybe the day before. Experts say there is no evidence of transmission on food. Transmission is by breath. Yet ...... the Police Commissioner has his theory! Yesterday when Channel 7 showed the video clip of the Parade of the Baked Alaska as 'up-close partying' between galley staff and crew, I wondered whether they were implying that the galley staff went around the dining room sneezing on everyone. It is all to ridiculous. Hopefully, the police investigators will get some expert medical opinion on transmission routes.

 

However, I still feel they should be focusing on why the ship was cleared to disembark passengers.

[Aus Traveller]

8 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

What about the theory that since 2/3's of the passengers were Australian, odds are an Australian brought it on. Called simple math.  But we will never know and it will not change the outcome...people died.

I see your logic, but by 8th March we had hardly any cases of COVID in Aust, and those that were, had been hospitalised and their contacts traced. The person could have been someone like my DIL's sister who flew into Aust on 7th, and tested positive on the 9th. She didn't go on the cruise, but someone like her could have. I am not saying it was a 'foreigner', but I think it is likely the virus was brought by someone who flew into the country to board the ship. That could easily have been an Aussie.

[possum52]

6 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

What about the theory that since 2/3's of the passengers were Australian, odds are an Australian brought it on. Called simple math.  But we will never know and it will not change the outcome...people died.

Possibly an Australian, but more likely an international passenger as the contacts of all positive tested Australians were being put in isolation and those with Covid 19 had all returned from overseas. There was no community spread at that time. 

[BRANDEE]

16 minutes ago, Aus Traveller said:

That is correct. We discussed this issue on this thread yesterday or maybe the day before. Experts say there is no evidence of transmission on food. Transmission is by breath. Yet ...... the Police Commissioner has his theory! Yesterday when Channel 7 showed the video clip of the Parade of the Baked Alaska as 'up-close partying' between galley staff and crew, I wondered whether they were implying that the galley staff went around the dining room sneezing on everyone. It is all to ridiculous. Hopefully, the police investigators will get some expert medical opinion on transmission routes.

 

However, I still feel they should be focusing on why the ship was cleared to disembark passengers.

Do the police realize those Baked Alaskas were plastic?  I'm actually in that video.

[possum52]

11 minutes ago, BRANDEE said:

Do the police realize those Baked Alaskas were plastic?  I'm actually in that video.

And they taste so good too! 🤣 How funny, was it easy to pick yourself out? I wondered if the video was actually of your cruise but if you were in it, yes it was. A comment I read this morning on a report about the video described the crew as parting with the passengers while they conga lined through the dining room. People who have never been on a cruise have no idea and believe what is  written/shown in the media.

 

Leigh

 

 

[Pushka]

2 hours ago, Aus Traveller said:

Agreed. I also think it is unlikely that they were "assured by Princess that they would be safe." Do they have that in writing? I don't think any tour operator would assure a client that they "would be safe". There are so many possible ways a passenger could injure themselves or become ill. I wonder who is supposed to have assured them they would be safe - one of the security staff who check them on board maybe?

I think Princess came very very close to exactly that on their website:

https://www.princess.com/plan/cruise-with-confidence/keeping-you-safe-and-healthy/

 

What precautions are your ships taking to prevent COVID-19 on board?

A: Our ships and medical staff are  well  equipped to prevent and contain the spread of contagious  illnesses, including COVID-19.  We are taking extra precautions and  are being  guided  in consultation with  international and local  health  authorities. 

Edited April 18, 2020 by Pushka

[BRANDEE]

11 minutes ago, possum52 said:

And they taste so good too! 🤣 How funny, was it easy to pick yourself out? I wondered if the video was actually of your cruise but if you were in it, yes it was. A comment I read this morning on a report about the video described the crew as parting with the passengers while they conga lined through the dining room. People who have never been on a cruise have no idea and believe what is  written/shown in the media.

 

Leigh

 

 

Would you believe my brother and his wife are in the video of the last night's party in the atrium.  I'm on the same side as the person with the camera.  

[OzKiwiJJ]

20 minutes ago, Pushka said:

I think Princess came very very close to exactly that on their website:

https://www.princess.com/plan/cruise-with-confidence/keeping-you-safe-and-healthy/

 

What precautions are your ships taking to prevent COVID-19 on board?

A: Our ships and medical staff are  well  equipped to prevent and contain the spread of contagious  illnesses, including COVID-19.  We are taking extra precautions and  are being  guided  in consultation with  international and local  health  authorities. 

It would be impossible for any cruise line to prevent it unless all passengers were required to have a medical certificate stating they were COVID-19 free, and overseas passengers would have had to arrive 14 days early to self-isolate just in case.

 

And to contain it, first they have to be 100% certain that people onboard the ship have it, and that would require every passenger to report as soon as they felt even the slightest bit ill, and tests would have to be done regularly as we know the virus doesn't always show immediately.

 

And even then there could still be passengers who were asymptomatic. 

[Aus Traveller]

28 minutes ago, Pushka said:

I think Princess came very very close to exactly that on their website:

https://www.princess.com/plan/cruise-with-confidence/keeping-you-safe-and-healthy/

 

What precautions are your ships taking to prevent COVID-19 on board?

A: Our ships and medical staff are  well  equipped to prevent and contain the spread of contagious  illnesses, including COVID-19.  We are taking extra precautions and  are being  guided  in consultation with  international and local  health  authorities. 

That would have been written by a lawyer🙂 - "well equipped to prevent and contain the spread of contagious illnesses including COVID-19". They don't say that they would prevent and contain ...  From the reports of the cruise from BRANDEE and others, they were taking extra precautions (extra cleaning and additional notices). I don't think that the part that you would quote would 'hang' Princess.

 

We need Mr GUT (our resident law expert) to give us his learned opinion.

[Aus Traveller]

7 minutes ago, OzKiwiJJ said:

It would be impossible for any cruise line to prevent it unless all passengers were required to have a medical certificate stating they were COVID-19 free, and overseas passengers would have had to arrive 14 days early to self-isolate just in case.

 

And to contain it, first they have to be 100% certain that people onboard the ship have it, and that would require every passenger to report as soon as they felt even the slightest bit ill, and tests would have to be done regularly as we know the virus doesn't always show immediately.

 

And even then there could still be passengers who were asymptomatic. 

and at the time of the cruise, COVID test kits were in short supply worldwide. Cruise ships did not have them.