Will Cunard want proof of vaccination to board and how would you show it?

[PORT ROYAL]

10 minutes ago, mcloaked said:

Every time you check in for a cruise you go to the desk, and you hand in your e-ticket, along with your passport, and have your credit card ready - the check-in desk staff are trusted to scan your passport and ticket, and your passport is electronically compared with the database of known criminals and if no red flags come up, you let the check-in person photograph you so that your cruise card is linked to a digital image of your face, and that data is then put into the ship's computer so that you can be visually checked against the stored image every time you embark or disembark the  ship, or indeed if you are doing your passport check on board during a transatlantic crossing on the way to Southampton!  It might be possible, since this is a global issue to have governments require that the vaccination process is confirmed by the authority conducting the jab, to send electronic confirmation to the passport authority of the country concerned, and a suitable flag added to the passport database, so that when you check your passport in at embarkation, or even when checking in for a flight to get to the port of embarkation, that this will flag to the check in staff if you are clear to travel. 

 

Electronic national databases are quite common now - after all in the UK, your car has the insurance validity, MOT test validity, and registration validity all in the DVLA database and the police, and indeed the public, can check whether a particular vehicle has all three currently valid or not.  It is not beyond the whit of man to require vaccination status to be a part of the passport check.  It is just one additional flag on top of the other data that is checked at the embarkation terminal. Any modern advanced society could easily add this kind of data if it was deemed critical to getting travel moving again - and after all travel of all kinds has been massively impacted on a global scale. Of course the first step is to have a working approved and proven effective vaccine available to the majority of the population of all countries.  Indeed also given that any vaccine would need a few weeks for the immune response to build up immunity, then the vaccine would have to have been given a couple of weeks before travel otherwise it would not protect the person fully.  Of course paper documentation would be a necessary backup, but a lot of thought also needs to be put in to preventing fake documentation or fraudulent confirmation whether electronic or paper!

 

Agree, and the confirmation can be input to the data base by your GP against you NI number when they administer the vaccine, then transferred to your UK Passport.

It would be good for your GP to sight your UK Passport at the time of vaccination,

to prove legimaticy of the receiver.

 

[exlondoner]

25 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

I see what you are saying in the first paragraph on the passport but I think Doc/Patient confidentiality and GDPR European data protection might make that a no no. I am not sure whether that could be done without consent. And how long would it take to implement? Probably years?

 

What is the problem with this? In the 1970s, I went to Italy when there was (most improbably) a small pox alert in North West London, where I happened to live. I had the vaccination, got a piece of paper, and waved it at anyone who was interested at frontiers, as I went by train. It really wasn't difficult. Now small pox really is a deadly disease, but the process was straightforward. So, why should this be different?

[mcloaked]

10 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

 

What is the problem with this? In the 1970s, I went to Italy when there was (most improbably) a small pox alert in North West London, where I happened to live. I had the vaccination, got a piece of paper, and waved it at anyone who was interested at frontiers, as I went by train. It really wasn't difficult. Now small pox really is a deadly disease, but the process was straightforward. So, why should this be different?

 

The difference is that it it now 50 years later and fraudulent documents are a much bigger problem now than they ever were in the 1970s.

[PORT ROYAL]

12 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

 

What is the problem with this? In the 1970s, I went to Italy when there was (most improbably) a small pox alert in North West London, where I happened to live. I had the vaccination, got a piece of paper, and waved it at anyone who was interested at frontiers, as I went by train. It really wasn't difficult. Now small pox really is a deadly disease, but the process was straightforward. So, why should this be different?

 

In the 1970's things were different.  Now there are a multitude of footpads and naredowells in the Uk.  So, the passport method is two fold, no legitimate UK Passport of NI Number, no vaccine.  If not holding a legitimate UK passport with NI then must register, in person, at the Immigration/Foreign office.

Edited August 11, 2020 by PORT ROYAL

[mcloaked]

43 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

I see what you are saying in the first paragraph on the passport but I think Doc/Patient confidentiality and GDPR European data protection might make that a no no. I am not sure whether that could be done without consent. And how long would it take to implement? Probably years?

 

We already have the infrastructure to transfer electronic documents within the NHS and government.  You can now login to your GP surgery, and order an electronic prescription, that is sent electronically to your chosen pharmacy and they then get the medications prepared for you to collect.  It is no longer rocket science.  Your GP can access your hospital medical records, and get the results of a blood test done at the hospital.  The government has been able to write a test and trace app from scratch within a couple of months - so adding a small component to an already pre-existing central medical database and passport database as well as link it to an already existing check system by travel agents, can be done relatively quickly - it is just a matter of whether there is the political will to make the decision.  It may be less well developed in some countries than others but it is certainly not impossible to implement a scheme like this if there is the will to do it.

[exlondoner]

4 minutes ago, mcloaked said:

 

The difference is that it it now 50 years later and fraudulent documents are a much bigger problem now than they ever were in the 1970s.

 

Paper ones? Presumably it was much harder to check on authenticity also. And really, I know Cunard cruises are wonderful, but how many people are going to go to the trouble of forging a document to say they've had a vaccination, when they haven't, just to go on one of the ships. Why not just have the jab?

[mcloaked]

Just now, exlondoner said:

 

Paper ones? Presumably it was much harder to check on authenticity also. And really, I know Cunard cruises are wonderful, but how many people are going to go to the trouble of forging a document to say they've had a vaccination, when they haven't, just to go on one of the ships. Why not just have the jab?

 

For most people that is certainly true - but it only takes one or two people out of two thousand to go to the trouble of making a false vaccination certificate, and it risks infecting everyone on the ship! After all the majority of people are law abiding citizens and considerate to others - but some small percentage are not!

[exlondoner]

8 minutes ago, PORT ROYAL said:

 

In the 1970's things were different.  Now there are a multitude of footpads and naredowells in the Uk.  So, the passport method is two fold, no legitimate UK Passport of NI Number, no vaccine.  If not holding a legitimate UK passport with NI then must register, in person, at the Immigration/Foreign office.

 

I wonder if there really are more naredowells. Delightful to see that word written down for the first time. What are you registering for with the FCO? And shouldn't it be the Passport Office? And what about children? And surely it is for the benefit of everyone that even naredowells are vaccinated? But I'm not quite sure what point you are rally making, except that there are more bad people than there were.

[exlondoner]

2 minutes ago, mcloaked said:

 

For most people that is certainly true - but it only takes one or two people out of two thousand to go to the trouble of making a false vaccination certificate, and it risks infecting everyone on the ship! After all the majority of people are law abiding citizens and considerate to others - but some small percentage are not!

 

Not if they've had the vaccine.

[PORT ROYAL]

2 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

 

Paper ones? Presumably it was much harder to check on authenticity also. And really, I know Cunard cruises are wonderful, but how many people are going to go to the trouble of forging a document to say they've had a vaccination, when they haven't, just to go on one of the ships. Why not just have the jab?

 

Foreign Passport holders overstaying, not registered, no NI number, being here illegally and want to go on a cruise.

The "passport evidence" rule would be extended to cover the World.

 

 

[mcloaked]

12 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

 

I wonder if there really are more naredowells. Delightful to see that word written down for the first time. What are you registering for with the FCO? And shouldn't it be the Passport Office? And what about children? And surely it is for the benefit of everyone that even naredowells are vaccinated? But I'm not quite sure what point you are rally making, except that there are more bad people than there were.

 

Or even Ne'er-do-well....  not used too much as a word in recent times though.... but very descriptive!

[PORT ROYAL]

13 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

 

I wonder if there really are more naredowells. Delightful to see that word written down for the first time. What are you registering for with the FCO? And shouldn't it be the Passport Office? And what about children? And surely it is for the benefit of everyone that even naredowells are vaccinated? But I'm not quite sure what point you are rally making, except that there are more bad people than there were.

 

Senario 

On personal presentation

Hi, I'm here illegally and want the vaccine.

Arrested, vaccinated, deported.  

[exlondoner]

11 minutes ago, PORT ROYAL said:

 

Foreign Passport holders overstaying, not registered, no NI number, being here illegally and want to go on a cruise.

 

 

I cant think there are many of those. Apart from anything else they'd be worried about getting back in at the end of the cruise.

[exlondoner]

2 minutes ago, PORT ROYAL said:

 

Senario 

On personal presentation

Hi, I'm here illegally and want the vaccine.

Arrested, vaccinated, deported.  

 

You seem terribly concerned about people here illegally. Have you encountered many on Cunard cruises?

[ace2542]

3 hours ago, mcloaked said:

 

We already have the infrastructure to transfer electronic documents within the NHS and government.  You can now login to your GP surgery, and order an electronic prescription, that is sent electronically to your chosen pharmacy and they then get the medications prepared for you to collect.  It is no longer rocket science.  Your GP can access your hospital medical records, and get the results of a blood test done at the hospital.  The government has been able to write a test and trace app from scratch within a couple of months - so adding a small component to an already pre-existing central medical database and passport database as well as link it to an already existing check system by travel agents, can be done relatively quickly - it is just a matter of whether there is the political will to make the decision.  It may be less well developed in some countries than others but it is certainly not impossible to implement a scheme like this if there is the will to do it.

 But surely other parties who are not my GP need my consent to share my medical record or vaccination records with the passport database which is nothing to do with the NHS?. If that information is shared without consent of the person I am sure that will violate GDPR regulations among other things and the fines for companies using the illegal shared data if it is illegal will be huge

[mcloaked]

Perhaps it makes sense to have the option to ask you to allow your vaccination record to be shared with the passport office, if the other alternative would be that you are not permitted to board unless the vaccination status can be confirmed? But yes the GDPR regs would still need to be satisfied. A bit like your travel insurance can lead to refused cover if you haven't shared any key relevant medical conditions with the insurer.

Edited August 11, 2020 by mcloaked
typo

[ace2542]

7 hours ago, exlondoner said:

 

What is the problem with this? In the 1970s, I went to Italy when there was (most improbably) a small pox alert in North West London, where I happened to live. I had the vaccination, got a piece of paper, and waved it at anyone who was interested at frontiers, as I went by train. It really wasn't difficult. Now small pox really is a deadly disease, but the process was straightforward. So, why should this be different?

Well the fines for violation of the GDPR can be upto 4% of annual global turnover which could be massive for Cunard/Carnival a company that can hardly afford that kind of fine.

[exlondoner]

9 hours ago, ace2542 said:

Well the fines for violation of the GDPR can be upto 4% of annual global turnover which could be massive for Cunard/Carnival a company that can hardly afford that kind of fine.

 

But why is it going to be a data breach? This seems to be worrying about a non-existent problem. Global turnover for Cunard this year isn't going to be immense.😀

[ace2542]

21 minutes ago, exlondoner said:

 

But why is it going to be a data breach? This seems to be worrying about a non-existent problem. Global turnover for Cunard this year isn't going to be immense.😀

Surely you can't share my medical records with a cruise line or the UK passport office without my consent and have that shared information transmitted overseas? And leave the EU will not take us away from the GDPR. GDPR is why you can't view many american news websites

[exlondoner]

8 minutes ago, ace2542 said:

Surely you can't share my medical records with a cruise line or the UK passport office without my consent and have that shared information transmitted overseas? And leave the EU will not take us away from the GDPR. GDPR is why you can't view many american news websites

 

 But it's not your medical records. It's the fact you've had a vaccination, and why would you not give your consent? If the system works with Yellow Fever vaccines, why should this be different? 

[resistk]

15 hours ago, exlondoner said:

 

 But it's not your medical records. It's the fact you've had a vaccination, and why would you not give your consent? If the system works with Yellow Fever vaccines, why should this be different? 

 

Almost certainly will be some sort of medical questionairre involved, question is how detailed will it be and does a doc need to sign off on it.

[ace2542]

8 hours ago, resistk said:

 

Almost certainly will be some sort of medical questionairre involved, question is how detailed will it be and does a doc need to sign off on it.

Signed off on by your Doc or ship doc? I highly doubt there will be enough time during the boarding process for ship doc to sign of 3000 forms? And how do you prove it has not been forged if it needs to be signed off by MY DOCTOR? Before you answer that question I refer you to Doc/Patient confidentiality and European GDPR  once again. Even without that there is no way in hell any doctor is going to confirm over a telephone to cruise line rep that they signed a medical form. Even if they can be spoken to on a telephone. Have you tried to ring a doctor's surgery you are on hold for sometimes an hour.

 

The vaccine card yellow card will probably be the way forward. If they can get it work the way they need it to.

[resistk]

2 hours ago, ace2542 said:

Before you answer that question I refer you to Doc/Patient confidentiality and European GDPR  once again. Even without that there is no way in hell any doctor is going to confirm over a telephone to cruise line rep that they signed a medical form.

 

Ponant French Line has been requiring these even before the epidemic.  It was actually a nasty surprise, they demanded a full medical clearence before a transatlantic they cancelled and then refused to refund (but that is another story).

 

And they require them now for all cruises, welcome to the future:

 

Prior to boarding, all guests and crew members will have to present a signed doctor’s medical form, complete a health questionnaire and undergo a health check and screening by the ship’s medical staff.

 

https://www.travelagentcentral.com/cruises/ponant-unveils-covid-safe-protocols-for-guests

 

Edited August 13, 2020 by resistk

[BlueRiband]

2 hours ago, resistk said:

 

Ponant French Line has been requiring these even before the epidemic.  It was actually a nasty surprise, they demanded a full medical clearence before a transatlantic they cancelled and then refused to refund (but that is another story).

 

And they require them now for all cruises, welcome to the future:

 

Prior to boarding, all guests and crew members will have to present a signed doctor’s medical form, complete a health questionnaire and undergo a health check and screening by the ship’s medical staff.

 

https://www.travelagentcentral.com/cruises/ponant-unveils-covid-safe-protocols-for-guests

 

Perhaps smaller ships can to that.  But just imagine the horrendous ordeal at the cruise terminal if health reviews have to be done for 2600 passengers.  The signed doctor's form is a huge obstacle for all the earlier outlined reasons. If Cunard puts in such procedures I won't book.  Contactless dining?  No thanks.

[exlondoner]

58 minutes ago, BlueRiband said:

Perhaps smaller ships can to that.  But just imagine the horrendous ordeal at the cruise terminal if health reviews have to be done for 2600 passengers.  The signed doctor's form is a huge obstacle for all the earlier outlined reasons. If Cunard puts in such procedures I won't book.  Contactless dining?  No thanks.

 

Or 5,000+ on some RCI or MSC ships. And what on earth would be the point?