RCI Quantum of the Seas Outbreak

[Fredette]

21 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I'm sure Australia did great. My point is I have no control here and our southern border with mexico is open. If 73% is being spread here by family and private meetings, and 1% dining, I think it is a shame to close outdoor dining and not address the other. 

 

As I expected you ignored the problems here I pointed out and gloated about how well where you are doing there, which is a island and it worked so much better. 

 

I feel bad for restaurants going out of business here, calif closed outdoor dining which isnt a big risk. Deal with the big risks. Every 1 of the 50 states here has different policies, not 1 like your island. I knew you wouldnt get it. You didnt. I have a issue with closing outdoor dining especially where every safeguard possible is being done.

I'm not sure that "gloating" is the word, but if you like to think that, enjoy.

 

Needless to say, whatever we did, worked.

[Doggielover68]

20 minutes ago, firefly333 said:

I'm sure Australia did great. My point is I have no control here and our southern border with mexico is open. If 73% is being spread here by family and private meetings, and 1% dining, I think it is a shame to close outdoor dining and not address the other. 

 

As I expected you ignored the problems here I pointed out and gloated about how well where you are doing there, which is a island and it worked so much better. 

 

I feel bad for restaurants going out of business here, calif closed outdoor dining which isnt a big risk. Deal with the big risks. Every 1 of the 50 states here has different policies, not 1 like your island. I knew you wouldnt get it. You didnt. I have a issue with closing outdoor dining especially where every safeguard possible is being done.

I have a feeling that the reason for restricting indoor/outdoor dining is to limit people from gathering. What's to stop a group of 5, 10 + people from different households gathering to eat at an outside dining establishment and then sharing a table where social distancing is impossible? Also it's so hard to stop the spread when procedures are so different from state to state. If one state has open dining and a neighboring state does not, people will cross state lines to go to the open places. Take out is fine for now. I think many restaurants have adapted to be able to provide great takeout/curbside options so they can still survive but discourage groups from gathering. 

[Fredette]

2 minutes ago, Doggielover68 said:

I have a feeling that the reason for restricting indoor/outdoor dining is to limit people from gathering. What's to stop a group of 5, 10 + people from different households gathering to eat at an outside dining establishment and then sharing a table where social distancing is impossible? Also it's so hard to stop the spread when procedures are so different from state to state. If one state has open dining and a neighboring state does not, people will cross state lines to go to the open places. Take out is fine for now. I think many restaurants have adapted to be able to provide great takeout/curbside options so they can still survive but discourage groups from gathering. 

Correct.  Take away (what we call take out here) was adopted by many restaurants that didn't do it before.  All of the delivery businesses had a boom.  People just had to eat at home.

AND, where I live, households weren't allowed to visit each other, to restrict the spread of the virus.

Part of the reason for our second wave was the spread from household to household.  So unless you were caring for someone, you couldn't visit friends/family, nor could they visit you.  

It all comes back to stopping the spread by preventing too much contact.  Unfortunately, isolation is necessary when dealing with the outbreak of a new disease.  Our ancestors understood this, it's basic.

Church services were stopped (places of religious worship were only allowed to have the religious leader and one or two people on site to operate the equipment so that services could be broadcast).  People had to worship at home - using zoom or the like to tune in.  Baptisms and weddings were stopped, funerals could only go ahead with minimal people physically present, I "attended" a funeral online and it was surreal.

Mistakes were made, lessons were learned, but what became apparent is that the solution is not easy, it involves being uncomfortable and doing what we don't want to do, but have to do.

In Australia, we had different rules between states, depending on what the situation was in each state, and movement between states was not possible unless you had an exemption.  Even within states, movement could be restricted (I live in Melbourne and we weren't allowed to travel to the regions because we couldn't risk spreading it to areas that didn't have it).

I don't know how the political system works in America, so I don't know whether it is possible to restrict interstate movement, or even if anyone has the will to do it.  If there was a particularly bad outbreak in one state, could neighbouring states close their borders?

[jfunk138]

I think it's very premature to declare Australia (and NZ for that matter) as having had the most successful strategy.  At some point they both need to reopen their borders and relax restrictions.  It sounds like in order to be "successful" that full reopening will not occur until some large percentage of their population is vaccinated which realistically could stretch into 2023.  Can they stay locked down and walled off from the world that long?  I think even surviving their meteorological winter in 2021 will be tough as the northern hemisphere returns to normal and they remain walled off.

The northeastern states in the US were busy declaring victory this summer as well (a certain governor even wrote a book about his great victory).  Look at them now!  All are worse (both now and overall) than the likes of Florida and Georgia that they spent the summer criticizing.  

[Doggielover68]

15 hours ago, Fredette said:

Correct.  Take away (what we call take out here) was adopted by many restaurants that didn't do it before.  All of the delivery businesses had a boom.  People just had to eat at home.

AND, where I live, households weren't allowed to visit each other, to restrict the spread of the virus.

Part of the reason for our second wave was the spread from household to household.  So unless you were caring for someone, you couldn't visit friends/family, nor could they visit you.  

It all comes back to stopping the spread by preventing too much contact.  Unfortunately, isolation is necessary when dealing with the outbreak of a new disease.  Our ancestors understood this, it's basic.

Church services were stopped (places of religious worship were only allowed to have the religious leader and one or two people on site to operate the equipment so that services could be broadcast).  People had to worship at home - using zoom or the like to tune in.  Baptisms and weddings were stopped, funerals could only go ahead with minimal people physically present, I "attended" a funeral online and it was surreal.

Mistakes were made, lessons were learned, but what became apparent is that the solution is not easy, it involves being uncomfortable and doing what we don't want to do, but have to do.

In Australia, we had different rules between states, depending on what the situation was in each state, and movement between states was not possible unless you had an exemption.  Even within states, movement could be restricted (I live in Melbourne and we weren't allowed to travel to the regions because we couldn't risk spreading it to areas that didn't have it).

I don't know how the political system works in America, so I don't know whether it is possible to restrict interstate movement, or even if anyone has the will to do it.  If there was a particularly bad outbreak in one state, could neighbouring states close their borders?

I think some states in the US attempted to restrict border crossings, but it was more on the honor system than any actual proof for those traveling by car. Plus in many of our states with busy tri-state areas, people cross borders daily for work, shopping, etc so it would be very hard to enforce. 

[Doggielover68]

12 hours ago, jfunk138 said:

I think it's very premature to declare Australia (and NZ for that matter) as having had the most successful strategy.  At some point they both need to reopen their borders and relax restrictions.  It sounds like in order to be "successful" that full reopening will not occur until some large percentage of their population is vaccinated which realistically could stretch into 2023.  Can they stay locked down and walled off from the world that long?  I think even surviving their meteorological winter in 2021 will be tough as the northern hemisphere returns to normal and they remain walled off.

The northeastern states in the US were busy declaring victory this summer as well (a certain governor even wrote a book about his great victory).  Look at them now!  All are worse (both now and overall) than the likes of Florida and Georgia that they spent the summer criticizing.  

New York did a remarkable job in turning things around, but when it comes to community spread, the governor has little control over those who refuse to limit social interactions. 

[jfunk138]

16 minutes ago, Doggielover68 said:

 New York did a remarkable job in turning things around, but when it comes to community spread, the governor has little control over those who refuse to limit social interactions. 

"turning things around"?  Like every other state that has at one point be the leader in cases, like Florida, South Dakota, Wisconsin, etc?  All of these places drew a similar curve to New York with much less restrictions and at the end of the day a lower mortality as well.

A strategy that fails to get buy-in from the people responsible for implementing it is a FAILED strategy.

[Fredette]

15 hours ago, jfunk138 said:

I think it's very premature to declare Australia (and NZ for that matter) as having had the most successful strategy.  At some point they both need to reopen their borders and relax restrictions.  It sounds like in order to be "successful" that full reopening will not occur until some large percentage of their population is vaccinated which realistically could stretch into 2023.  Can they stay locked down and walled off from the world that long?  I think even surviving their meteorological winter in 2021 will be tough as the northern hemisphere returns to normal and they remain walled off.

The northeastern states in the US were busy declaring victory this summer as well (a certain governor even wrote a book about his great victory).  Look at them now!  All are worse (both now and overall) than the likes of Florida and Georgia that they spent the summer criticizing.  

Our success was in dealing with a spike in infections - I did say there would need to be a long term resolution like a vaccine.  We currently have zero locally acquired cases throughout the country, which IS a success in anyone's book.

 

Now that both countries have effectively dealt with our "locally acquired" problem (ie:  no more community transmission, we just need to ensure our quarantine is handled correctly going forward) we are opening up borders between the two countries.  Pacific nations have indicated they will welcome us shortly - so cruising the Pacific will be back on the cards.

It's a start.

All indications from our PM are that the borders won't be open until the vaccine is proven to be effective, and even then, I would say it will depend on the situation in the country of origin.  

 

EVEN THEN - the PM might say people are ok to come into the COUNTRY - but that only gets you into federal space.  Each state premier or territory governor can still declare the local border closed unless you quarantine.  It's not as simple as some people around the world think - although we have a federal government, each state and territory retained powers under our Constitution when we federated, and each government can and will impose additional rules to protect their population.  Our PM will have to deal with a collection of leaders (of various political persuasions) to completely open up the country.

[Fredette]

2 hours ago, Doggielover68 said:

I think some states in the US attempted to restrict border crossings, but it was more on the honor system than any actual proof for those traveling by car. Plus in many of our states with busy tri-state areas, people cross borders daily for work, shopping, etc so it would be very hard to enforce. 

It was very difficult here, particularly for border communities, so there were special "border bubble" rules brought in for them - something like border community dwellers could cross over into the adjoining town to conduct their business, but they couldn't go any further.

There's no denying it was difficult, but it worked, so now people are free to move around again, with some precautions of course.  

[BlerkOne]

I'm pretty sure Mexico isn't happy about that open (alleged) border. Who cares if other countries are better or worse off than the US? Or US states vs US states? That doesn't help the US control their out of control problems. Just more deflecting.

[Aplmac]

On 12/9/2020 at 8:46 AM, ontheweb said:

I wonder when the cruise line executives will figure out that

until the vaccines have been widely used,

this will keep happening.

 

THANK YOU!

 

[jfunk138]

7 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

I'm pretty sure Mexico isn't happy about that open (alleged) border. Who cares if other countries are better or worse off than the US? Or US states vs US states? That doesn't help the US control their out of control problems. Just more deflecting.

The reason these comparisons are worthwhile is it is the closest thing we have to a scientific method to confirm the effectiveness of interventions. 

 

I think it started with another poster trying to claim that the reason cruises can operate in Europe is because Italy was doing "better" than the US, an assertion that is not supported by objective facts.  Italy is currently #4 in deaths overall for the entire pandemic (US is #11) and their daily rate of new deaths still exceeds the US.

Edited December 15, 2020 by jfunk138

[BlerkOne]

8 hours ago, jfunk138 said:

The reason these comparisons are worthwhile is it is the closest thing we have to a scientific method to confirm the effectiveness of interventions. 

 

I think it started with another poster trying to claim that the reason cruises can operate in Europe is because Italy was doing "better" than the US, an assertion that is not supported by objective facts.  Italy is currently #4 in deaths overall for the entire pandemic (US is #11) and their daily rate of new deaths still exceeds the US.

The comparisons are meaningless. Anyone can prove anything with "statistics", especially when using sources of varying credibility. The US leads by far in total deaths and current daily deaths. But really, any death is too many. We can't control the rest of the world, but we can have an impact on what happens within our borders. Focus on that.

[jfunk138]

4 hours ago, BlerkOne said:

The comparisons are meaningless. Anyone can prove anything with "statistics", especially when using sources of varying credibility. The US leads by far in total deaths and current daily deaths. But really, any death is too many. We can't control the rest of the world, but we can have an impact on what happens within our borders. Focus on that.

1.  The data is from Johns Hopkins University, if they aren't credible, I'm not sure who is.  Using the absolute "counts" like you want to do is misleading.  The US is the third largest country on the planet, naturally the counts will be higher.  Comparing the counts of the US to other countries directly without adjusting for population is like comparing the counts of California to South Dakota directly.  California has had more cases in the past week than Sound Dakota has had the entire pandemic!  But does this mean California is worse?  Only by adjusting for population can we find out.  

2.  This thread is not about what happens in the US at all.  It's about a cruise sailing in Asia.  A poster above claimed that Italy (where cruises have also recently operated) was somehow doing "better", but the facts do not support this claim.

[BlerkOne]

36 minutes ago, jfunk138 said:

1.  The data is from Johns Hopkins University, if they aren't credible, I'm not sure who is.  Using the absolute "counts" like you want to do is misleading.  The US is the third largest country on the planet, naturally the counts will be higher.  Comparing the counts of the US to other countries directly without adjusting for population is like comparing the counts of California to South Dakota directly.  California has had more cases in the past week than Sound Dakota has had the entire pandemic!  But does this mean California is worse?  Only by adjusting for population can we find out.  

2.  This thread is not about what happens in the US at all.  It's about a cruise sailing in Asia.  A poster above claimed that Italy (where cruises have also recently operated) was somehow doing "better", but the facts do not support this claim.

More hogwash. You are totally ignoring population density, climate, the fact that Europeans travel freely between countries like Americans travel between states and more. You are misusing statistics to support your opinion.

 

The cruise in question, in fact did not have Covid on board, and not sure how Covid in other parts of the world is relevant.

 

The facts support that the US leads the world in Covid deaths and that fact cannot be ignored. It is disgraceful and nothing to be proud of.

[jfunk138]

6 minutes ago, BlerkOne said:

More hogwash. You are totally ignoring population density, climate, the fact that Europeans travel freely between countries like Americans travel between states and more. You are misusing statistics to support your opinion.

 

The cruise in question, in fact did not have Covid on board, and not sure how Covid in other parts of the world is relevant.

 

The facts support that the US leads the world in Covid deaths and that fact cannot be ignored. It is disgraceful and nothing to be proud of.

I'd welcome a chart that shows these stats adjusted for the density, climate, and mobility you suggest it would indeed be useful data. If you have such a comparison please share.  But I don't think think adjusting for population is "hogwash".  It's standard practice to make any kind of meaningful comparison.  

 

But as you say, that might not be relevant to this topic or the tangential post in question (#36) about "MSC in Italy".  Assuming "MSC in Italy" is relevant here, we need to be honest about how poorly Italy has done with the pandemic.  With "raw" numbers Italy leads Europe in deaths.  Adjusted for population they are #4 most deaths in the world.  The situation there is not good by any metric but somehow, they were able to cruise.