Good News for mixed vaccines ... finally

[CruisinFinsUp]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-effectiveness-data-delayed-doses-mixing-matching-covid-19-vaccines-1.6205993
 

Finally: two studies with good news for mixed vaccines.  
 

And there were US researchers involved. 
 

And they have sent the info to the US for their review re travel. 
 

I'm SO happy to finally see this !!!!    Much better than the article I shared a day ago!  Maybe we'll be able to travel to the US for work and vacation soon!  
 

(also when did this Canadian section start up??  I just noticed it a few days ago! ) 
 

 

[puppycanducruise]

I heard that report on the radio too.

The delayed second dose turned out to be a good bet.

[K_e_short]

The studies were already there when people were getting mixed doses and delayed doses.

 

I don't have time to try to find the articles but I remember being told that AZ should be 12 weeks interval. That came up when Ontario had expiring AZ doses and were giving them out at 8 weeks.

 

I also remember reading ALOT about mixing doses and what I read was that mixing two types of vaccines (vector and mrna) allowed your body to respond in different ways.

 

I'm a teacher and thought that mixing doses sounded good as I'm exposed to up to 150 students a day, who might not be vaccinated, and who may not be wearing their mask properly.

 

 

[CruisinFinsUp]

All good.  I agree it makes sense. 
 

 What's new is that they are telling the US authorities and providing them the evidence so hopefully they come around!  

My hubby has cancelled work trips to US because he is "considered unvaxxed" with AZ/ Mod.  Its affecting his business!   Not just about our one cruise a year to unwind!! 

 

[Fouremco]

4 minutes ago, cruisintoddler said:

All good.  I agree it makes sense. 
 

 What's new is that they are telling the US authorities and providing them the evidence so hopefully they come around!  

My hubby has cancelled work trips to US because he is "considered unvaxxed" with AZ/ Mod.  Its affecting his business!   Not just about our one cruise a year to unwind!! 

 

Why would your hubby have cancelled trips, as there is as yet no requirement to be vaccinated to enter the US? Was it because the businesses he would have dealt with required it for entering their offices?

[PGCruiser2]

5 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Why would your hubby have cancelled trips, as there is as yet no requirement to be vaccinated to enter the US? Was it because the businesses he would have dealt with required it for entering their offices?

The U.S. land borders are closed.

[lolo11]

9 hours ago, cruisintoddler said:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-vaccine-effectiveness-data-delayed-doses-mixing-matching-covid-19-vaccines-1.6205993
 

Finally: two studies with good news for mixed vaccines.  
 

And there were US researchers involved. 
 

And they have sent the info to the US for their review re travel. 
 

I'm SO happy to finally see this !!!!    Much better than the article I shared a day ago!  Maybe we'll be able to travel to the US for work and vacation soon!  
 

(also when did this Canadian section start up??  I just noticed it a few days ago! ) 
 

 

Thanks for posting!

[CruisinFinsUp]

6 hours ago, Fouremco said:

Why would your hubby have cancelled trips, as there is as yet no requirement to be vaccinated to enter the US? Was it because the businesses he would have dealt with required it for entering their offices?

Yes. Businesses, restaurants for entertaining, some hotels, conference venues etc.  He had a deadline for switching his conference registration to someone else who received 2 mRna's.  At the time of the deadline there was speculation hotels in the cities where his conferences were might demand proof....   

It makes work travel very difficult!  

[CruisinFinsUp]

1 hour ago, PGCruiser2 said:

The U.S. land borders are closed.

Not for flights.  You can fly into the US.  

[Fouremco]

16 minutes ago, cruisintoddler said:

Yes. Businesses, restaurants for entertaining, some hotels, conference venues etc.  He had a deadline for switching his conference registration to someone else who received 2 mRna's.  At the time of the deadline there was speculation hotels in the cities where his conferences were might demand proof....   

It makes work travel very difficult!  

That's what I suspected, but thanks for confirming. These are great examples of the difficulties faced by many Canadians other than cruisers but not given much if any recognition.

[broberts]

3 hours ago, PGCruiser2 said:

The U.S. land borders are closed.

 

Not closed to essential and air travel.

[TeaBag]

To answer your question, cruisintoddler, this site began maybe mid April.  I remember when there were only 3 threads.  It has really grown and there's a ton of good information on here especially in this confusing COVID era.

[ladysail2]

Thank you for posting that, Cruisintoddler. I missed the article in my CBC News.  The big hurdle will be convincing the CDC to believe it. That agency seems to be very anti-Canadian. The W.H.O. accepts mixed vaccines. It will be interesting to hear the new rules for flying into the US. New rules in early November (I believe).  Keeping my fingers crossed for good mixed vaccine news.

[K_e_short]

38 minutes ago, ladysail2 said:

Thank you for posting that, Cruisintoddler. I missed the article in my CBC News.  The big hurdle will be convincing the CDC to believe it. That agency seems to be very anti-Canadian. The W.H.O. accepts mixed vaccines. It will be interesting to hear the new rules for flying into the US. New rules in early November (I believe).  Keeping my fingers crossed for good mixed vaccine news.

 

I don't think the W.H.O accepts mixed vaccines. They say that Public Health should be the ones deciding IF vaccines are mixed (not individuals) but they say the research is still being done.

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-54---covid-19-mixed-and-fractional-vaccine-doses

[DirtyDawg]

8 hours ago, ladysail2 said:

Thank you for posting that, Cruisintoddler. I missed the article in my CBC News.  The big hurdle will be convincing the CDC to believe it. That agency seems to be very anti-Canadian. The W.H.O. accepts mixed vaccines. It will be interesting to hear the new rules for flying into the US. New rules in early November (I believe).  Keeping my fingers crossed for good mixed vaccine news.

The CDC is not anti-Canadian. Their job is to serve the U.S. public's interests, not any foreign country's public's interest. And yes, we may be nice and polite neighbours but we are still foreigners to the Americans.  (who happen to spell neighbor wrong in their eyes 😉)

 

 

 

 

[ladysail2]

11 hours ago, K_e_short said:

 

I don't think the W.H.O accepts mixed vaccines. They say that Public Health should be the ones deciding IF vaccines are mixed (not individuals) but they say the research is still being done.

 

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/media-resources/science-in-5/episode-54---covid-19-mixed-and-fractional-vaccine-doses

If you read through that link, the W.H.O. Says that they have evidence and non- evidence that mixing an AZ vaccine with Pfizer or Moderna creates a very strong immune response.   That says to me that they agree to having mixed vaccines.

[Fouremco]

11 hours ago, ladysail2 said:

Thank you for posting that, Cruisintoddler. I missed the article in my CBC News.  The big hurdle will be convincing the CDC to believe it. That agency seems to be very anti-Canadian. The W.H.O. accepts mixed vaccines. It will be interesting to hear the new rules for flying into the US. New rules in early November (I believe).  Keeping my fingers crossed for good mixed vaccine news.

I disagree with the anti-Canadian statement. The FDA is responsible for approving vaccinations to be administered in the US. That includes both Emergency Use Authorizations and final approvals. FDA approval is based on the results of the extensive clinical trials conducted by a company, and does not allow for reducing the number of doses, extending the length of time between doses, changing the dosage, mixing and matching vaccines in order to immunize more people, or any other use of the vaccine falling outside the parameters of the clinical trials. They have a very strict set of protocols to adhere to before approving any drug, which is why the US was saved from the horrors of thalidomide.

 

Canada has taken a different approach, first approving a number of vaccines based on their clinical trials, but then allowing mixing and matching and extending the length of time between doses based on nothing more than a handful of small studies and the opinion of its medical experts. Fortunately, this Hail Mary approach turned out well for Canadians and saved lives. But it could have gone very wrong, as it ran contrary to all of the scientific best practises.

 

The US didn't accept Canada's approach from the outset, not because it was Canadian but because it was unscientific and lacked the clinical trials that might prove - or disprove - the efficacy of these changes to the manufacturers' recommendations. While there has been increasing evidence that the decision was the correct one, there still have been no clinical trials of the magnitude required for vaccination approval, nor have the manufacturers sought approval the changes undertaken by Canada.

 

Meanwhile, the CDC works to protect America from health, safety and security threats. This includes providing recommendations on what COVID-19 vaccinations are both safe and effective. While the three FDA approved vaccines automatically fall within this category, and the CDC accepts vaccines approved by the WHO, it has yet to recommend the mix and match combos as there has been a lack of sufficient evidence to date that people with these doses are in fact fully vaccinated. That said, with the pending opening of flights to people from a number of countries that have allowed mixed doses, the CDC stated this week that there will be "additional guidance and information as the travel requirements are finalized." If there is no change forthcoming, the CDC's stance will effect residents of several countries, not just Canadians. This is not an anti-Canadian stance.

[Fouremco]

5 minutes ago, ladysail2 said:

If you read through that link, the W.H.O. Says that they have evidence and non- evidence that mixing an AZ vaccine with Pfizer or Moderna creates a very strong immune response.   That says to me that they agree to having mixed vaccines.

That's not how the WHO operates. Having some evidence does not equate to having given approval.

[ladysail2]

4 hours ago, DirtyDawg said:

The CDC is not anti-Canadian. Their job is to serve the U.S. public's interests, not any foreign country's public's interest. And yes, we may be nice and polite neighbours but we are still foreigners to the Americans.  (who happen to spell neighbor wrong in their eyes 😉)

 

 

 

 

It seems strange to me that the US’s fully vaccination rate is under 60%, while Canada’s fully vaccination rate is over 70%….yet we cannot enter their country by land (except for essential services) because we pose a threat to the US citizen’s health.  That’s according to their October 2 decision.  They really, are doing us a favour by keeping us out of their poorly vaccinated country.  This after all, is my opinion.

[Fouremco]

19 minutes ago, ladysail2 said:

It seems strange to me that the US’s fully vaccination rate is under 60%, while Canada’s fully vaccination rate is over 70%….yet we cannot enter their country by land (except for essential services) because we pose a threat to the US citizen’s health.  That’s according to their October 2 decision.  They really, are doing us a favour by keeping us out of their poorly vaccinated country.  This after all, is my opinion.

IMO, the decision to keep the border closed is a political one not related to any CDC recommendation. If it was health related, they wouldn't be letting us fly in. Their southern border continues to pose a massive problem for the US administration, and it's easier for them to keep it closed if they keep Canadians out too, blaming it on Covid.

[ladysail2]

38 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

That's not how the WHO operates. Having some evidence does not equate to having given approval.

 

45 minutes ago, Fouremco said:

That's not how the WHO operates. Having some evidence does not equate to having given approval.

The W.H.O. has more than ‘some evidence’…they advocate using data and evidence from other countries to make decisions…..and at the Global Press Conference on Covid 19, they were asked..”Is W.H.O. Suggesting that health agencies (in Canada) shouldn’t recommend mixing vaccine doses?”

W.H.O. answered “ no, in fact the opposite is true”.    
 

After all that, why they don’t approve mixing vaccines, is anyone’s guess….and I’ll keep my opinion to myself.   They certainly said all good things about Canada’s approach to our Vaccine protocol during the Press Conference.  

[PGCruiser2]

1 hour ago, ladysail2 said:

It seems strange to me that the US’s fully vaccination rate is under 60%, while Canada’s fully vaccination rate is over 70%….yet we cannot enter their country by land (except for essential services) because we pose a threat to the US citizen’s health.  That’s according to their October 2 decision.  They really, are doing us a favour by keeping us out of their poorly vaccinated country.  This after all, is my opinion.

British Columbia is 82 % fully vaccinated and rising. Vancouver is there cruise port and requires fully vaccinated passengers or they won't be able to debark. This is for the pleasure and safety for all. Mixing vaccinations turned out to bring strong efficacy and very successful The answer if necessary is to give those folks a 3rd shot so that they will have 2 of same shot of Pfizer or Moderna,  Giving Astra Zeneca proved to save many lives when vaccine was in low supply in Canada. 

 

Our land borders are open to the USA and require proof of being fully vaccinated and a negative Covid test result within 48 hours of crossing.

 

Lets Cruise :)

 

[truckswain]

2 hours ago, Fouremco said:

I disagree with the anti-Canadian statement. The FDA is responsible for approving vaccinations to be administered in the US. That includes both Emergency Use Authorizations and final approvals. FDA approval is based on the results of the extensive clinical trials conducted by a company, and does not allow for reducing the number of doses, extending the length of time between doses, changing the dosage, mixing and matching vaccines in order to immunize more people, or any other use of the vaccine falling outside the parameters of the clinical trials. They have a very strict set of protocols to adhere to before approving any drug, which is why the US was saved from the horrors of thalidomide.

 

Canada has taken a different approach, first approving a number of vaccines based on their clinical trials, but then allowing mixing and matching and extending the length of time between doses based on nothing more than a handful of small studies and the opinion of its medical experts. Fortunately, this Hail Mary approach turned out well for Canadians and saved lives. But it could have gone very wrong, as it ran contrary to all of the scientific best practises.

 

The US didn't accept Canada's approach from the outset, not because it was Canadian but because it was unscientific and lacked the clinical trials that might prove - or disprove - the efficacy of these changes to the manufacturers' recommendations. While there has been increasing evidence that the decision was the correct one, there still have been no clinical trials of the magnitude required for vaccination approval, nor have the manufacturers sought approval the changes undertaken by Canada.

 

Meanwhile, the CDC works to protect America from health, safety and security threats. This includes providing recommendations on what COVID-19 vaccinations are both safe and effective. While the three FDA approved vaccines automatically fall within this category, and the CDC accepts vaccines approved by the WHO, it has yet to recommend the mix and match combos as there has been a lack of sufficient evidence to date that people with these doses are in fact fully vaccinated. That said, with the pending opening of flights to people from a number of countries that have allowed mixed doses, the CDC stated this week that there will be "additional guidance and information as the travel requirements are finalized." If there is no change forthcoming, the CDC's stance will effect residents of several countries, not just Canadians. This is not an anti-Canadian stance.

I first want to thank Fouremco for all his great information and insights on many threads on the Canadian Cruiser Board.

 

While the CDC's mandate is to protect Americans clearly they have done a poor job in managing the Covid crisis from low vaccination rates to total deaths.  I find it ironic that Canada has determined what constitutes fully vaccinated, verified by our scientists and health agencies, But the CDC experts know better.  The proof of our success is pretty easy to see by our  high vaccination rates and and falling hospitalizations and deaths.

 

It is pretty hard to understand their concern over mixed dose individuals entering their country when they have 80 thousand fans in multiple stadiums every Sunday watching a football game.

 

Mixed dosing may have been somewhat of a gamble, however it was based on past knowledge that was gained with HIV vaccines (and other treatments) that routinely mix doses.  So given what Canada was faced with it was a calculated risk based on science and not a whim.

 

As far as the WHO and their experts, I trust them and their advice less than I do the advice about Covid I find on Facebook.  When Covid is no longer a global health emergency I hope there is thorough review of the WHO and their complete mishanding of this crisis.

 

I applaud  every country and their efforts to keep people safe with the Covid crisis it just seems common sense has not factored in some of the decisions made.

Edited October 10, 2021 by truckswain

[Fouremco]

1 hour ago, ladysail2 said:

 

The W.H.O. has more than ‘some evidence’…they advocate using data and evidence from other countries to make decisions…..and at the Global Press Conference on Covid 19, they were asked..”Is W.H.O. Suggesting that health agencies (in Canada) shouldn’t recommend mixing vaccine doses?”

W.H.O. answered “ no, in fact the opposite is true”.    
 

After all that, why they don’t approve mixing vaccines, is anyone’s guess….and I’ll keep my opinion to myself.   They certainly said all good things about Canada’s approach to our Vaccine protocol during the Press Conference.  

My point is that the CDC recognizes vaccines actually approved by the WHO. The fact that they have evidence of whatever magnitude doesn't mean a thing until they take the next step of approving a vaccine mix. What they say at press conferences - and there was some confusion as to what was actually said or meant - has little bearing on the list of approved vaccine.

[Fouremco]

8 minutes ago, truckswain said:

I first want to thank Fouremco for all his great information and insights on many threads on the Canadian Cruiser Board.

 

While the CDC's mandate is to protect Americans clearly they have done a poor job in managing the Covid crisis from low vaccination rates to total deaths.  I find it ironic that Canada has determined what constitutes fully vaccinated, verified by our scientists and health agencies, But the CDC experts know better.  The proof of our success is pretty easy to see by our  high vaccination rates and and falling hospitalizations and deaths.

 

It is pretty hard to understand their concern over mixed dose individuals entering their country when they have 80 thousand fans in multiple stadiums every Sunday watching a football game.

 

Mixed dosing may have been somewhat of a gamble, however it was based on past knowledge that was gained with HIV vaccines (and other treatments) that routinely mix doses.  So given what Canada was faced with it was a calculated risk based on science and not a whim.

 

As far as the WHO and their experts, I trust them and their advice less than I do the advice about Covid I find on Facebook.  When Covid is no longer a global health emergency I hope there is thorough review of the WHO and their complete mishanding of this crisis.

 

I qapplaud  every country and their efforts to keep people safe with the Covid crisis it just seems common sense has not factored in some of the decisions made.

I agree with almost all of what you point out, including your comment on Canada having taken a calculated risk based on science and not a whim. But I would point out that such things as football games are not within the purview of the CDC, and that the low vaccination rate is in spite of the CDC, not because of it. It's a classic case of being able to take a horse to water but you can't make it drink. They've had abundant vaccine from the outset, but there are still huge contingents of refuseniks.