What Am I Missing….This Stinks

[LGW59]

On 10/28/2021 at 11:45 AM, jg51 said:

.

That was hilarious for us to read, "go.without.you."  We have been on close to forty cruises in the last fifteen years, but we have never had even $0.01 of on-board credit in any of those cruises.

.

If you have never received one cent of OBC, you have been doing something wrong!  "We" think you need to revisit how you do your bookings.

[Guppy99]

1 hour ago, nocl said:

Let's look at another way if this actually ended up it court. I can see the following questions asked of the cruise line.

 

Was the fare booked valid? yes

How many times each year do you have a no show at the dock? Some number or I don't know.

Do penalize all of them? No

Have you previously penalized anyone for having a no show? No

Why this one? They posted on cruise Critic that they only did this to book a fare without inclusions. That there was never any intent for a second passenger.

Did they provide a valid name and passenger information? Yes

Then how can you be certain there was no chane the second person would cruise? The CC discussion.

 

Where do you draw the line on chance of some one filling the second slot 90 percent that they will sail, 50 percent, 1 percent?  We do not have a defined standard.

 

Is there language in the cruise contract to prevent the practice? No

 

Question to individual named on reservation? Was there any chance you might make the cruise? There was a slim chance. I would have liked to, since it would have been paid for by passenger 1, but in the end I was unable to.

 

Companies do things all the time with pricing. A lot of things that are ethically unfair. If it is unethical for a passenger to use the rules to their benefit, it is equally unethical to force a soli passenger to have to pay double for inclusiis that they will only use one of.

 

By The cruise line setting up the pricing most will not take the perfectly legal work around  so the number of people booking the lower double fare then having a no show will be small and the cruise line got their goal of most solo travelers paying the higher double fare including double the inclusions.

ok...say this went to court.

 

Question;

Did you make the reservation knowing joe brown would be a no show? (remember you are under oath)

Question;

Did you do so with the intent of avoiding the the fair for a solo traveler? (again, under oath)

Question:

Have you ever read a suggestion on social media that the solo traveler fee can be avoided by making a dummy reservation?  (again, under oath. subpoena CC records for viewers and posters oft his thread a similar threads)

 

Intent matters.

 

Your hypothetical implies a person had the intent and lied about it under oath. (perjury)

 

The suggestion someone do this is fraud and unethical. Can you get away with it....probably, unless the cruise line bills the passenger who did show up the additional costs. I don't know if they do.

 

Personally. I'm not interested in any company that scams people. By the same token, I'm not interested in any people that attempt to scam companies either.

 

It's just ironic that the OP claims fraud (when there is none), and some persons suggest committing a fraud.

 

 

 

[nocl]

1 hour ago, Guppy99 said:

'"precedence", and the airline scenario is not on "all fours" with the airline policy. If fact, it is so far astray as to not even be relevant.  A cruise ship passenger, on board for several days, where there is probability of additional revenue from each individual is totally different. 

funny, the core of the case is one purchasing a legal fare, then not using all of it, in the airline case not flying a segment, in the cruise line case a passenger not boarding. pretty similar as a core issue.

 

Again as an attorney show any cases that you think the cruiselines would use to win a case against a passenger that did so. the history concerning that no shows at time of boarding are an accepted practice and the cruise line does not have language preventing it.

 

if you are an attorney as claimed she the legal references to support your claim.

 

You assume it is fraud, I do not. After all they purchased a legal fare. At most it might be a violation of T&Cs, but nothing in the T&Cs against it.

 

Your definition of fraud seems to be much wider than the courts view.

Edited October 29, 2021 by nocl

[nocl]

25 minutes ago, Guppy99 said:

ok...say this went to court.

 

Question;

Did you make the reservation knowing joe brown would be a no show? (remember you are under oath)

Question;

Did you do so with the intent of avoiding the the fair for a solo traveler? (again, under oath)

Question:

Have you ever read a suggestion on social media that the solo traveler fee can be avoided by making a dummy reservation?  (again, under oath. subpoena CC records for viewers and posters oft his thread a similar threads)

 

Intent matters.

 

Your hypothetical implies a person had the intent and lied about it under oath. (perjury)

 

The suggestion someone do this is fraud and unethical. Can you get away with it....probably, unless the cruise line bills the passenger who did show up the additional costs. I don't know if they do.

 

Personally. I'm not interested in any company that scams people. By the same token, I'm not interested in any people that attempt to scam companies either.

 

It's just ironic that the OP claims fraud (when there is none), and some persons suggest committing a fraud.

 

 

 

So you claim. the person is buying a legal fare. if there is the slightest chance that the other person might have gone it would not be perjury. Of course it would never come to a case because the cruise line no that the fare is legal, there is nothing in there terms and conditions that a person booking a fare actually has to show up. It is clear that no shows happen frequently without any additional fees, after all thr cruise contract would have to state it. The only penalty is that the cruise line retains the fare.

 

If the cruise line wanted to.prevent it they could easily put the necessary language in their cruise contract. Of course such a change is likely to cost them far more  that they would make by printing a few singles from booking a double rate to get around having to buy the inclusions, especially having to pay got two sets.

[Bo1953]

8 minutes ago, nocl said:

funny, the core of the case is one purchasing a legal fare, then not using all of it, in the airline case not flying a segment, in the cruise line case a passenger not boarding. pretty similar as a core issue.

 

Again as an attorney show any cases that you think the cruiselines would use to win a case against a passenger that did so. the history concerning that no shows at time of boarding are an accepted practice and the cruise line does not have language preventing it.

 

if you are an attorney as claimed she the legal references to support your claim.

Can you point us to this language in the T&C's, for any cruise line?

 

bon voyage

[LGW59]

Just now, nocl said:

So you claim. the person is buying a legal fare. if there is the slightest chance that the other person might have gone it would not be perjury. Of course it would never come to a case because the cruise line no that the fare is legal, there is nothing in there terms and conditions that a person booking a fare actually has to show up. It is clear that no shows happen frequently without any additional fees, after all thr cruise contract would have to state it. The only penalty is that the cruise line retains the fare.

 

If the cruise line wanted to.prevent it they could easily put the necessary language in their cruise contract. Of course such a change is likely to cost them far more  that they would make by printing a few singles from booking a double rate to get around having to buy the inclusions, especially having to pay got two sets.

Buy a cruise fare for two, for whatever reason one cannot go, taxes and port fees reduced, that's it.  It ain't FRAUD, and the person who says he/she is an attorney, would be fired from the firm I work at.  There is zero fraudulent about it.  

[nocl]

5 minutes ago, Bo1953 said:

Can you point us to this language in the T&C's, for any cruise line?

 

bon voyage

That is my point unlike the airlines example, there is no language in the cruise line T&Cs forbidding the practice.

[zitsky]

If only there was more than one cruise line, so you wouldn't be forced to pay Celebrity's prices.

[Guppy99]

9 minutes ago, LGW59 said:

Buy a cruise fare for two, for whatever reason one cannot go, taxes and port fees reduced, that's it.  It ain't FRAUD, and the person who says he/she is an attorney, would be fired from the firm I work at.  There is zero fraudulent about it.  

'isn't"....

You are wrong. if you did it with the knowledge the other person would be a no show and you did it with the intent of avoiding the charges, it's fraud.  If you legitimately booked two people, and one had a last minute change of heart, then there is no fraud.

Is the difference between those two scenarios too difficult to comprehend?

[nocl]

1 minute ago, Guppy99 said:

'isn't"....

You are wrong. if you did it with the knowledge the other person would be a no show and you did it with the intent of avoiding the charges, it's fraud.  If you legitimately booked two people, and one had a last minute change of heart, then there is no fraud.

Is the difference between those two scenarios too difficult to comprehend?

Explain how a cruise line claim damages when there was a legally purchased fare. 

 

You keep claiming fraud, but nothing to back up the claim. As an attorney you should be able to show some examples to back your position.

 

 

[Guppy99]

40 minutes ago, nocl said:

Explain how a cruise line claim damages when there was a legally purchased fare. 

 

You keep claiming fraud, but nothing to back up the claim. As an attorney you should be able to show some examples to back your position.

 

 

I don't need examples or precedence. it meets all the elements of fraud. Just because it isn't prosecuted doesn't mean its any less illegal.

Maybe this will help.

If you encounter a red light on a lonely street at 2am, with absolutely no traffic whatever...and you go through...have you committed a violation? Yes.  are you likely to get a ticket when no one is around? No. Does not make it any less wrong.

[nocl]

1 minute ago, Guppy99 said:

I don't need examples or precedence. it meets all the elements of fraud. Just because it isn't prosecuted doesn't mean its any less illegal.

Maybe this will help.

If you encounter a red light on a lonely street at 2am, with absolutely no traffic whatever...and you go through...have you committed a violation? Yes.  are you likely to get a ticket when no one is around? No. Does not make it any less wrong.

So you claim. Than why did the airlines lose when they made the claim before they included the now rather lengthy sections on improper reservation practices.

 

Show us a single case  concerning purchasing of legal fares  in line with term and conditions where there is no language in the t&c forbidding the practice.

[nocl]

8 minutes ago, Guppy99 said:

I don't need examples or precedence. it meets all the elements of fraud. Just because it isn't prosecuted doesn't mean its any less illegal.

Maybe this will help.

If you encounter a red light on a lonely street at 2am, with absolutely no traffic whatever...and you go through...have you committed a violation? Yes.  are you likely to get a ticket when no one is around? No. Does not make it any less wrong.

not really the same because in the red light there are clearly published laws against it.

 

Show me the written language in the T&C that forbids the practice.  Show any claims of damages by a cruise line due to a no show at the pier.

[Guppy99]

3 minutes ago, nocl said:

not really the same because in the red light there are clearly published laws against it.

 

Show me the written language in the T&C that forbids the practice.  Show any claims of damages by a cruise line due to a no show at the pier.

I give up. You just refuse to understand the difference.  Have at it.  As you go through life trying to get away with as much as you can, because you are unlikely to get caught or called to task, it will eventually come back to bite you. 

[nocl]

9 minutes ago, Guppy99 said:

I give up. You just refuse to understand the difference.  Have at it.  As you go through life trying to get away with as much as you can, because you are unlikely to get caught or called to task, it will eventually come back to bite you. 

You do not understand the difference between fraud and making purchases of a legal cruise fare in line with terms and conditions. Just because a cruise line provides hurdles to booking such a fare. If booked the fare is legal, and not in violation of the cruise line terms and conditions. Just because one goes in a direction that is a bit different then the cruise lines desired path does not make it fraud.

 

If the cruise did what the airlines did and add language concerning improper bookings you might have an argument, without such language not much. just a claim without backing.

[PTC DAWG]

1 hour ago, zitsky said:

If only there was more than one cruise line, so you wouldn't be forced to pay Celebrity's prices.

If only…

[N 2 Sun]

Thank you @HostJazzBlue for the perfect change in wording to my original title. 
 

As many have pointed out, offering a cabin category for two people without AI but requiring a solo traveler in the same cabin category to purchase a sailing with AI is not fraud….but, to me, it sure stinks. 
 

Although it may (or may not depending upon opinions here) be legal to book a double cabin and then cancel the 2nd name at the last moment, I am not comfortable with that. Celebrity’s pricing policies seem to be asking for it, but to me, it is gaming the system. I don’t like being gamed and I don’t want to do it to others. 

Having been away from cruising (and Cruise Critic) since 2019, this thread has taught me much about AI and it has taught me that cruise pricing - with some cruise lines and some sailings - stinks.  
 

To the good, I have found two Azamara sailings that are very similar to what Celebrity is offering for Spain and Portugal. The pricing is higher for my husband and me, but it is far more transparent so they have earned our travel dollars this time.  

 

[Hearthosesteeldrumsplayin]

19 hours ago, zitsky said:

 

Is there a name for the 2 bedroom suites?  Thanks.

 On NCL they actually have them named "2 bedroom suites".  Look at NCL Dawn.  She's a smaller, older ship, but has a 2 bedroom deluxe family suite with balcony.  When we have booked, we have often added an adult child for not much more than the port fees and taxes.  I am unfamiliar with Celebrity's pricing strategies and availability of 2 bedroom suites, sorry.  Some NCL ships have 2 bedrooms available in the HAVEN or as a suite outside of the HAVEN (which I think is similar to The Retreat on X, but is self-contained).  Note that some ships have HAVENs with bar and dining area (usually the newer ships), while others have a HAVEN area, but it doesn't have an exclusive bar/dining room.  Might be worth checking out if you need room for that additional person.....

[nocl]

57 minutes ago, N 2 Sun said:

Thank you @HostJazzBlue for the perfect change in wording to my original title. 
 

As many have pointed out, offering a cabin category for two people without AI but requiring a solo traveler in the same cabin category to purchase a sailing with AI is not fraud….but, to me, it sure stinks. 
 

Although it may (or may not depending upon opinions here) be legal to book a double cabin and then cancel the 2nd name at the last moment, I am not comfortable with that. Celebrity’s pricing policies seem to be asking for it, but to me, it is gaming the system. I don’t like being gamed and I don’t want to do it to others. 

Having been away from cruising (and Cruise Critic) since 2019, this thread has taught me much about AI and it has taught me that cruise pricing - with some cruise lines and some sailings - stinks.  
 

To the good, I have found two Azamara sailings that are very similar to what Celebrity is offering for Spain and Portugal. The pricing is higher for my husband and me, but it is far more transparent so they have earned our travel dollars this time.  

 

Let me make one thing clear you do not cancel the person at the last minute. If you cancel they might refare the remaining person. You simply have the one person be a no show.

 

Unless you have a covered reason for a cancellation, it is almost always better for a person to be a no show. Even when booking normally. Different story if you have insurance or outside of the full penalty 

[Guppy99]

8 minutes ago, nocl said:

Let me make one thing clear you do not cancel the person at the last minute. If you cancel they might refare the remaining person. You simply have the one person be a no show.

 

Unless you have a covered reason for a cancellation, it is almost always better for a person to be a no show. Even when booking normally. Different story if you have insurance or outside of the full penalty 

yup...  in order to scam the system, you must get your story straight. But.... just because it feels wrong, doesn't mean it is 🙄

[bunnybee]

I am a solo traveler.  I have booked a guarantee that often requires two people when making an online reservation.  I will do the booking and put it on hold for the twenty-four hours.  If I am sure I want the booking I will call the Captain's Club and explain that I want the guarantee rate, but I am a solo traveler.  Each time I have done this they then adjust the port charges and let me continue with the booking.  I haven't done it for a while as I just keep looking for good solo fares, which certainly occur, especially as the sailing date approaches.  

[nocl]

21 minutes ago, Guppy99 said:

yup...  in order to scam the system, you must get your story straight. But.... just because it feels wrong, doesn't mean it is 🙄

no even if you two people originally and one had to cancel, canceling when in the full penalty period has resulted in some cases on some cruise lines with changes in fare, because it represents a change in booking. There are also issues with insurance if one person has to cancel for a covered reason and the other want to continue with the cruise.

 

There have been a number of previous discussions on cruise Critic about this along with numerous recommendation that when uninsured when one drops out at the last minute best to no show instead of cancel. Do a search of CC you can find lots of discussions on the topic.

 

Just our of curiosity I called Celebrity today and talked to one of their agents about booking a solo with no inclusions. I raised the question about booking a double, even with the chance that the other person probably would not make the cruise. The person said that there was no problem with that. They told me that the fare would not be refunded if they could not make the cruise. But they were happy to book it.

 

If anyone doubts it call them yourself.

Edited October 29, 2021 by nocl

[Guppy99]

11 minutes ago, nocl said:

 

 

Just our of curiosity I called Celebrity today and talked to one of their agents about booking a solo with no inclusions. I raised the question about booking a double, even with the chance that the other person probably would not make the cruise. 

I'd wager that you didn't say: I want to book a double, but my companion doesn't exist, so that i can just pay at the price of a per person double rate.

[neverlaysup]

On 10/28/2021 at 8:45 AM, jg51 said:

.

That was hilarious for us to read, "go.without.you."  We have been on close to forty cruises in the last fifteen years, but we have never had even $0.01 of on-board credit in any of those cruises.

.

If that is the case, you are overpaying for your cruise. There are plenty of "not to be named" online agencies that will give you 8-10% of your fare paid back as OBC. The cruise rate is no different than that on X's website but it sure is nice to get a few hundred in my on board account when we sail. If you are using another agency that discounts the cruise by the same margin, then so be it. If not, you need to re-evaluate how you book cruises.

Edited October 29, 2021 by neverlaysup
typo

[neverlaysup]

2 hours ago, Hearthosesteeldrumsplayin said:

 On NCL they actually have them named "2 bedroom suites".  Look at NCL Dawn.  She's a smaller, older ship, but has a 2 bedroom deluxe family suite with balcony.  When we have booked, we have often added an adult child for not much more than the port fees and taxes.  I am unfamiliar with Celebrity's pricing strategies and availability of 2 bedroom suites, sorry.  Some NCL ships have 2 bedrooms available in the HAVEN or as a suite outside of the HAVEN (which I think is similar to The Retreat on X, but is self-contained).  Note that some ships have HAVENs with bar and dining area (usually the newer ships), while others have a HAVEN area, but it doesn't have an exclusive bar/dining room.  Might be worth checking out if you need room for that additional person.....

I have been in the two bedroom on NCL Star, we did a TA with my MIL as the third passenger. The second bedroom is really just a hard futon that converts to a bed with a standard bathroom. It was really small but having all three of us in a suite with the perks was fantastic.